[The following contains spoilers for Stranger Things season 4]

Stranger Things creators the Duffer Brothers address whether Brenner returns in Season 5. Matthew Modine’s shadowy Dr. Brenner was introduced in the first season of Netflix’s smash hit sci-fi show. The head of the mysterious Hawkins Laboratory and the original kidnapper of Eleven, the probably-evil Brenner was presumed to have died after Eleven escaped his clutches and the lab was shut down.

But of course Stranger Things season 4 revealed that Brenner did not actually die as presumed and was indeed still intent on using Eleven for his own ends. The season in fact dug deeper into the backstory of Brenner and Hawkins Lab as the shady doctor responsible for helping Eleven unleash her psychokinetic powers took her literally back to the past, unlocking the truth about his very first test subject, Henry Creel aka One. Through the course of the season it was revealed that Eleven herself was responsible for imprisoning One in the Upside Down, setting him on the course to becoming the monster Vecna. But monsters come in many forms as Eleven also realized, finally seeing through Brenner’s designs and recognizing the evil person lurking behind the man she came to call Papa. In the climactic moments of season 4’s penultimate episode, Brenner seemingly met his end after being riddled with bullets from a helicopter, sharing one last moment with Eleven who elected not to forgive him before he apparently died of his injuries.

Related: Stranger Things Season 4 Ending Explained (In Detail)

It’s of course necessary to qualify descriptions of Brenner’s death scene with the word “apparently” because the way it was shot, it’s never 100% certain that he’s actually dead. But now it seems that Stranger Things fans concerned about Brenner somehow returning to do more evil deeds in season 5 can rest easy. Speaking to Josh Horowitz on his Happy Sad Confused podcast, the show’s creators The Duffer Brothers confirmed that Modine’s character is in fact dead. “Yes,” Matt Duffer said in response to a question about Brenner being deceased. Ross Duffer then said, “Yes. For real this time.” Matt added, “Definitively he’s dead.” Ross then put one last nail in Brenner’s coffin, saying “He’s toast.

Matthew Modine in character as Brenner in Stranger Things season 4 lying on the dirty ground with blood in his mouth

That would seem to be the true last word on the fate of Modine’s Brenner straight from the mouths of Stranger Things’ two main creative voices. Of course the deaths of some Stranger Things characters have hit fans very hard, but presumably not many will mourn the passing of Brenner. At the very least, Modine’s character was morally conflicted and at worst he was a flat-out evil villain who was ultimately the one person most responsible for unleashing all the show’s chaos. Obviously Brenner was shown displaying affection for his Hawkins lab “children” at times and in the end he did seem to care about Eleven. But despite his supposed concern for his test subjects, he seemingly always saw them mostly as a means to an end, and could not stop using Eleven for shady reasons right up until almost the very final moment.

But of course the demise of Brenner doesn’t mean that bad things won’t continue happening to Eleven and the rest of the Hawkins kids in Stranger Things season 5. Indeed season 4 left things in a very dark place, as Vecna was apparently still alive and Hawkins was being torn apart by a rift. Eleven may have left her "Papa" Brenner behind in her final moments with him, but she clearly will still need the powers he helped her discover when Stranger Things season 5 arrives.

More: Did Stranger Things Season 4 Hide A Pretty Important Character Death?

Source: Happy Sad Confused/Twitter