The rivalry between Batman and his greatest villain may seem destined to go on forever, but that theory is about to be tested. Now that the "Joker War" is officially under way, the landscape of Gotham City has changed in ways Bruce Wayne never expected. Batman's money is gone, his friends are incapacitated, brainwashed, or worse, and his most trusted ally was laid to rest months ago. And the war has only just begun.
Along with a handful of other outlets, Screen Rant got the chance to hear just what is coming in "Joker War" from writer James Tynion IV directly. While the full scope of the events (and the fallout it will have on other members of the Batman family) is being kept quiet for now, make no mistake: changes are coming. Readers can find the full interview below, free of spoilers for Batman #95, the first official chapter of the game-changing "Joker War" available now.
James Tynion IV: I am really, really freaking excited about ‘Joker War.’ Around this time last year I started talking to DC about the possibility of taking on the Batman book, and what I really, really wanted was to build towards a big event story. And it was something that I had been a part of from the start of being a part of DC Comics. My first issues ever were the backup stories as part of the ‘Night of the Owls’ crossover, as a part of the year one of the New 52. I used to love those big crossover moments in the Batman line, because it felt like it really unified the family, and it was something that story could build to, and story could flow out of.
That was something that I know that... especially when we first started talking about my Detective Comics run a few years ago, we thought in the Rebirth era we might do that again, but we only really ever did ‘Night of the Monster Men.’ And it was something that I was hoping to see some more of... Getting in here and then using the character like the Joker to tell a really, really, big story. Now as that was all building, the question started to be raised: what can be done with the Joker’s story that I feel like I haven’t really been able to do before, or haven’t seen before? There were a few different angles that I knew I wanted to bring into it. One was something that I talked a lot about in my Detective Comics run, that was very much about how the presence of Batman impacts Gotham City. How Gotham City changes, how the people around Gotham transform with the presence of Batman, and I did that with characters like The Colony and the Victim Syndicate, and all of that. Normally the villains that were playing off of Batman. But in this story, I wanted to show what the impact of Joker is on Gotham.
It’s something that’s always been fascinating to me, the idea. But you have to imagine in a world, like, our real world has so many podcasts about serial killers and stuff like that. What does the actual world see of the Joker? I imagine there are entire shelves in Barnes & Noble in Gotham City filled with books about the crimes of the Joker, and stuff like that. I wanted to build off of that, I wanted to bring back the idea of Joker leading a gang, because both in Scott Snyder’s stuff and in Tom King’s stuff, we had a Joker that was more solitary. Then on top of all of that, I wanted to do a story that really flipped the dynamic. The core, high concept conceit is I wanted Batman’s fortune to be ripped away from him and given to the Joker. I wanted Joker to have all of the Batmobiles, Bat-planes, Bat-gadgets, and Batman to have none of them. And that’s the dynamic I wanted for a story.
So it was all of those pieces coming together, and those were the things that I started throwing at DC almost a year ago, and now we’re finally sitting here and we have an incredible story for you with absolutely phenomenal Jorge Jimenez art, and some big, exciting new characters, and really cool stuff. So I’m really, really excited.
The solicitation for Batman #100 revealed a full look at the new Batsuit debuting in Issue #95. What can you tell us about that suit?
So this suit is really thematically important for the issue, and for this entire arc. There were some preview pages of Batman #96 that hinted at this suit, and we saw a sequence in the suit, but we also saw a Bruce talking to Alfred with gray temples. This is an older Bruce, this is the Batman that Batman has been building himself towards, that he thinks is his own happy ending. This story is very much about Joker seeing the happy ending that Batman wanted to build for himself, and destroying all of the pieces that would be necessary for him to build that happy ending. That suit is an aspirational suit we're going to see ripped away. We'll see that suit for the first time in #95, in the future in #96, and then come back in a big way towards the end in a way that isn't going to necessarily be the utopian situation he was hoping to put that suit on in. That is a big piece of what we were trying to build.
How have you coordinated what's going on in the other Bat titles with what's happening in the main 'Joker War' story?
So how closely different titles interact with the main thread depends per book. Some I worked very closely with, others were a little more tangentially. Nightwing we worked very closely with Dan Jurgens, specifically around the beats that happen around Batman #99. Which, given some of the covers in that arena, there might be some hints as to why we might be coordinating a certain beat, and a certain return as part of that story. Working with Dan was a lot of fun, and something I was really happy we were able to do. I've been working closely with Pete Tomasi since I took on the title. We've talked about how our storylines have lined up going all the way back, especially when we wrote the Alfred Penyworth R.I.P. special that set the tone for a lot of the current relationships between the Bat family. That was the nadir, and now we're going to see everything turn around as a part of this story.
Then working with Cecil [Castellucci], Ram V on Catwoman, those titles were definitely... there were key beats I wanted to coordinate there. I am really happy and excited about all the material tying in. The people who are reading the whole Gotham line are going to get something really special out of this. But if you're just a Batman person and just want to read Batman, you're going to get the full picture. Around Issue #99 it will point to a few things that have happened in other issues, but I'm going to make sure you understand everything you need in this story.
What is your favorite Joker story? Has it informed 'Joker War' any way?
Honestly, my favorite Joker story is probably Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker. That captures all of the levels of the Joker that have always deeply fascinated me. It has the humor of the Mark Hamill Joker, but has the deep horror of the character that the animated series sometimes leaned away from. It embodied all of it. It's an older, darker, crueler Joker, and it's a Tim Drake story, and you know I'm a big Tim Drake nerd. So all of that came together into what is probably my favorite all-time Joker story. In the comics... obviously I'm biased, I was working on all of them, but the stuff Scott Snyder has done with the Joker, especially during his New 52 run, was very formative. It helped really cement the idea of Joker as almost the Devil. In a way that's been really interesting. Especially working with Scott not only on Batman stuff but in Justice League. I keep thinking how, in terms of the DC villains, Lex Luthor is a very Lucifer-style character. Joker is the Devil you find at the crossroads. When we're dealing with big, mythic level storytelling, which it always is with DC superheroes, there are always different types of Devils.
In Batman #95 you have the Joker himself saying 'people don't want something new, they want a layer to something they already know.' Do you think he's right?
I'm trying to think of the best way to answer this without revealing the rest of the story. That is a key thesis statement into what Joker is thinking and doing in this storyline. But it is something... I don't know if I fully agree with it. I put it in the villain's mouth so I can come at it from a different angle. I do think people want something new. In a meta sense, that's what I'm doing with this story. I'm trying to create new characters, bring them into the Gotham mythos, expand the Gotham mythos, change some of the core pillars of the Gotham mythos. A lot of what 'Joker War' does is it raises Gotham so new stories can be built off of it. That's been one of the most exciting things, is being able to create a whole bunch of new story and threads that ware going to pay off not only later this year but into next year. People have been really responding to the new stuff. But I think fans a lot of times can think like Joker in this moment. They don't want something new, they just want to see the pieces in the configuration they like them best in. Giving that opinion to the Joker, it was something I wanted to play with it a bit. And it plays off some of the speeches Joker gives later in the arc that I'm particularly proud of. So you'll have to wait and see.
Your Detective Comics run was incredibly tied into the Bat-family, whereas the Batman series as of late as been far more about Batman himself. Since you’re flipping the script on the Batman/Joker relationship, will we see more of the Joker family?
Oh yeah. That was definitely one of the big goals that I wanted for this story, and one of the things that led to the creation of Punchline. I wanted to really explore the fact that Joker having this whole group of people around him in the same way that Batman has his family around him, like at the moment that Joker successfully hit a bunch of fracture points that has separated Batman away from his family, and some of those fracture points, Bruce hit himself. But now Joker has this big family all around him. He has Punchline, he has this whole gang of clowns in masks and all of that. And Bruce doesn’t have anyone around him. That’s where ‘Joker War’ starts. And then we’re going to see that change over the course of the story as Batman realizes who he needs to reach out to to win. So the building of a Joker family, I definitely have a post-it note somewhere in this office that says 'Joker family' underlined three times from last October, or something like that.
The conversation around Batman and the potentially irresponsible way he spends his wealth has been one fans have been having for years. Can you speak to why you thought taking that away from him was vital, and without his gadgets, will we possibly see the world's greatest detective make a classic return?
Yeah, this is all very deliberate. There are elements to this question that I can't really discuss in terms of how it's going to spin forward. But part of what I was trying to do from the beginning of my run, in 'Their Dark Designs,' where you see–I tried to make it fun at first–we’re introducing new vehicles and gadgets every single issue. Everything that incredible wealth has given him, all of these advantages, and then seeing it in the hands of the Joker, and how dangerous it is, and how it messes with the legal system, and how it can really cripple Gotham City in this massive, dangerous way, using that wealth, that is incredibly deliberate and something that I wanted to point at Batman. Because we’re seeing the danger of overreach. The danger of overreach and creating these systems and all of these dangerous gadgets is: what if they fall into the wrong hands? Batman has created so much of it he couldn’t guarantee it didn’t fall into the wrong hands, and now they’ve fallen into the worst hands possible.
I do think that there’s an angle in Batman that needs to be analyzed, where when he was created, he wasn’t meant to be the richest person in the world. He was a wealthy man, but over time millionaire became a billionaire. The difference between a millionaire and a billionaire is very, very big. Running a company like Wayne Enterprises changes the dynamics of the character, and it creates the opening for a lot of these conversations that I don’t think tap into that core nature of the Batman mythos. It’s one of those things where stripping away this angle for at least this storyline, and then how we carry it forward was deliberate. Then it allows for Batman stories that don’t have that kind of messy question lingering over its head. ‘Why isn’t Bruce dismantling Wayne Enterprises and putting all of that money into the city?’ I’m conscious of all of this, and I think people will be very interested to see how the story ends, and how we pick it up in #101 and beyond.
There's a lot of talk in the real world about the economic and class divide, and Bruce is definitely part of the 1%. Will those sort of themes make their way into 'Joker War'?
Yes and no, it’s something that we’re going to see touched upon in the way that Joker uses the wealth in a way that almost parodies the way Bruce uses his wealth, and I think it helps draw it into a firmer contrast. I would say the core ideology of this story isn’t necessarily tapping into that dynamic, but it is a very interesting dynamic that I do plan on tapping into as I move forward with the character. Not necessarily in an aggressive, in your face kind of way, but there are threads that I do want to play with because I think it creates interesting story.
What's it been like curating such a massive event in these completely unprecedented circumstances?
I mean, every aspect of this whole lockdown experience has been surreal beyond belief. The one thing I will say, if there is a silver lining, is that things happen so quickly in superhero comics, especially when you're working on comics that come out twice a month, where you don't really get to stop and look at the whole mechanism. By the time Issue #95 comes out, Jorge is halfway done with drawing Issue #100. So I have been able to sit down and see the entire 'Joker War' story laid out in front of me before the first issue is published. And I've been able to see the tie-ins, and we've been able to create new things. The 'Joker Warzone' issue was something that didn't exist before the lockdown. We were just like, 'Oh there actually is tremendous interest in this event, and now we have this pause for this terrible reason. But that pause means we're actually going to be able to create some cool content here.'
Being able to flesh out a character like Clownhunter with a story that I got to write for James Stokoe--my head explodes every time I think about that. It's an incredible opportunity. Getting to duck and weave and make sure this story is the best that it can be. I am deeply, deeply excited for everyone to see what we've been able to build. That is the biggest benefit. And also it's been nice furthering my working relationship with Batman group editor Ben Abernathy, we've been texting everyday. Creatively, the work has been a light in a very dark tunnel. Even though the story is pretty dark.
What can you tell us about the new villain, Ghost-Maker, also being teased in solicits for future issues?
Oh boy. So Ghost-Maker is a character we will see a little bit of at the end of Batman #100, but will come in in a big way in November and beyond. This is a character I've been excited about for a really long time. He is definitely going to show up as an adversary to Bruce, but he is not necessarily a villain, per se. He is someone Bruce has known since he was a young man traveling around the world training to become Batman. Now basically, Bruce's rival from when he was fifteen years old has come back to Gotham City because he doesn't think Bruce is doing a very good job. That is the core conceit, is creating this rival from youth we're going to see come into the present in a big way. Jorge's design for him is absolutely incredible, I think I'll be able to show everybody that probably one month from now. He may or may not be on some covers starting in November. Stay tuned. I'm having a lot of fun adding toys to the Gotham City toybox. And as long as Jorge and I are having fun, I think I'm going to keep on doing it.
A year ago, this story likely had relevance and tonal connection to the real world, but since 2020 has shined a spotlight on the brokenness of our American system, how does the Batman story change? Is there a way to reconcile Batman’s rampant capitalism and ‘copaganda’ with the world we find ourselves in and, more importantly, the world we want to live in?
I absolutely think that there’s a way to reconcile those pieces, and I think that there are ways in which I think the Batman comics are perfect to lean into those stories, and I think there are ways in which it’s better to lean away. We’ve been having a lot of conversations about this. Like, this is not something that we want to approach lightly. The benefit of a story like ‘Joker War’... it’s not meant to be a grounded story. That was something that was part of the goal of the story to begin with. This is something where the horror of the moment is meant to feel real, but it’s definitely like, this is Joker gangs out in the streets and driving around Batmobiles. It’s not meant to represent what’s happening in the real world. But there are core aspects to it that tap into the way Bruce has, without thinking, created an arsenal that other people can pick up and use. I think there are elements of his wealth and his position in Gotham that are ripe for picking at for stories, and making Batman analyze.
You’ll see little pieces in there as a part of ‘Joker War’ that might touch on some of that, but it’s definitely been more of a discussion about the stories that we’re building moving forward, and the status quo that we want Batman in, for 2021 and beyond. I think you will see more of that, and I think you’ll see Batman being confronted with the ways in which he should do more in Gotham City, and the ways in which he wants to do more and he wants to be better. Obviously, ‘Joker War’ is him versus the Joker. It’s Bruce in a dark mindset, but it is something that as the story goes on, we see him come back with the family in this big uplifting way. Part of it is how to build a better outlook for Batman moving forward and… not necessarily happy Batman, but Batman who is a bit more centered and a bit more grounded, and not feeling like he’s losing track of everything or that his whole life is crumbling in his hands every five minutes. Those are all pieces that we are having active conversations about, and I think you will see shape some big stories in 2021 and beyond.
Without spoiling the actual events of the 'Joker War,' what can you say about where this will leave Batman and his family going forward? What can come next?
I think we've been seeing this breaking of the family for a long time... I always want to be clear about what I'm promising here, because a lot of people associate me with a lot of members of the Batman family, and would prefer that I put every single member of the Bat family in every single issue of Batman. That's what I did in my Detective Comics run, and I'm not necessarily planning on doing that here. But it is something I want... I want to heal some of the rifts in the Bat family in a way that helps create new story, shift some status quos. A robust Bat family is part of the Gotham City experience. And as we move into 2021 that is a key part of it. Some characters haven't had the spotlight in a bit, like Cassandra Cain. There are characters I deeply want to get a bigger spotlight, and you can start to see that on covers for Joker Warzone. We've got big bat family plans, and we've got a big exciting ending. Batman #100 is a lot of fun. So stay tuned.
Are you surprised at how popular Punchline has proven to be? Did you expect that?
I absolute did not expect that. I have created so many characters for DC Comics. It is something that I never saw coming, that this would be this big moment. She came about for a lot of practical story reasons, I wanted to create this big Joker army and I knew that Joker needed a lieutenant to tell everyone in that army what to do. Then I found out we were going to get Harley Quinn as a part of the 'Their Dark Designs' story, and we would be able to use her in 'Joker War.' Then I realized that lieutenant needed to be a dark mirror of Harley in some way. She started coming from all these raw elements. But the moment I saw Jorge Jimenez's design, which was one of the first things Jorge did once he took the job, that was, 'Oh wow, this just looks cool. This is just a cool-looking character.'
Ben Abernathy was like, 'Okay, we need to reposition some things to elevate her in the second half of 'These Dark Designs.' And she's definitely going to need to be in pole position for 'Joker War' and we'll want some covers with her,' all of that. We wanted the character to catch. But the fact that within two days of her design being out in the world, not even her appearing, we were getting fan art and cosplay of the character... that was an incredible feeling. And continues to be an incredible feeling. There feels like there is already a growing Punchline fandom online, even though the character has only appeared in a few comics so far. That is a really phenomenal experience, and something I do not take lightly.
You mention adding new toys into the toybox. In a short time you've added quite a lot of elements to Batman's world. How do you approach adding new things to an eighty year history?
I think the answer to the question is sort of built into the question itself. The goal is always to use new characters to give voice to aspects of the mythology that haven't been voiced before. And ways to interact with the mythology with more modern pieces, that allow you to approach some of those stories from a modern perspective. So someone like Punchline, creating a dark mirror for Harley... that's a character that didn't exist. So being able to design her specifically for that role, you build that with the consciousness. What do you want to say with this character?
Part of what I wanted to say with Punchline was to speak to the growing number of people online, in the real world, who look up to a Joker ideology. Which I find deeply frightening. They are looking up to a dangerous character. Then in the real world around us, we see people looking up to dark ideologies, and people being radicalized. And I think that there is a story of radicalization that is very much of the moment, and is very key to who the character Punchline is, in a way that makes her very different from Harley. That was very much the angle there. And it's also a character I couldn't just go and do an Image comic about, that character requires the DC Universe. That's key to creating each of these characters.
Clownhunter comes from the exact opposite angle. Clownhunter exists to give voice to the man on the streets in the midst of 'Joker War.' Joker has broken a bunch of people in Gotham City, and those people are angry, and they're sick of Batman not doing anything about it. So they're going to take it into their own hands. Once again, you have a character that gives voice to a real feeling that I think would exist in a real Gotham City, if all of these things were actually happening in the real world. Then a character like Ghost-Maker I've had in the back of my mind, the idea of Batman's rival. Back during the New 52 I think I pitched a young adventures of Bruce Wayne story, that was the thing I wanted to do there. Being able to bring that character into the present and do something different with him... I'm going to wait to dig into that character more until you guys can see the character, and I can talk about it some more. In each case I wanted to add something to the mythos. And the Designer was very much about the way villain ideologies grow and change in time, giving voice to that. Because it was building a whole story that was basically... the same leap the Designer made to go from being an ordinary villain to being the Designer is the same leap Batman made when the bat crashed through the window. These characters do need to make these ideological leaps sometimes.
In all cases, I want to say something, I don't want to just take a toy that belongs somewhere else and jam it in. I want to tell new stories, and I think new characters are often the key to telling new stories. I also feel like young fans today don't necessarily want to read stories about the same characters their parents were reading about. They want to find new voices they can connect to in the Gotham mythos, and want to carry those stories forward. Then you always bring back the ones you care about moving forward. I'll be honest, I'm bringing back Harper Row, Bluebird, coming up in some Gotham stuff because I love that character. You want to create new stuff, and use them to tell stories that feel real, and present, and like they haven't been told a hundred times.
The Bat-books have been quite silo-ed from the overall DC Universe for quite some time now. Did you ever want to bring some non-Gotham characters into 'Joker War' and, if so, who?
Honestly, I haven’t. But that might come from the fact that I’ve spent the last few years in Justice League land. For a while, I’ve been playing with the whole DC Universe and cosmic universe and everything tied into Death Metal, and Justice League, and Hell Arisen. And honestly, I just want to deal with Gotham right now. And I find that deeply exciting in getting to zero in and not particularly worry what Superman has to say about a situation and all of that. I love the DCU, I love all of those characters, but I am definitely very, very happy and excited to play in this specific arena. And I don’t see that changing in the immediate future.
I will say the one character who’s been announced that we are bringing back in is Grifter, the Wildstorm character who I love, and is badass. It is one of those things where I was just talking to Ben Abernathy and I needed this character to fill this beat, and it was just like, oh yeah, we’re totally going to use Grifter because Grifter’s freaking cool. And I think as moments like that arise, there are always little fun ties to the larger universe around Batman that then can set up new exciting story in all of that. But I would love to play with Plastic Man as a character. That’s a character I haven’t had a lot of time to play with, but I would love to. But I don’t necessarily know that I am dying to bring Plastic Man into being a recurring character in Batman just yet.
The event began with Catwoman, Penguin, and the others rogues having gone to ground. But they're not going to stay that way. What can you say about the rest of the villains' response to 'Joker War'?
I can say that story is going to culminate in Catwoman #25, I believe is the number. Catwoman's actions, and what she convinces Penguin and Riddler to do is going to twist the entire dynamic of Gotham City moving forward. That's a thread happening on the back burner, that then is really going to pay off moving forward. Both in the Catwoman title and in the main Batman title.
Batman #95 is available now in your local comic book shop, and direct from DC Comics.