[...] seem to help make the final product that much better; Michael Bay has said in interviews that he worked out the overall story of Transformers 2, all the way down to the action AND comedic bits.  However, when the WGA strike ended, writers [...]

[...] the writer’s strike, Michael Bay took it upon himself to write much of the script so they could make the June release deadline next summer. This way, when the strike ended, he had [...]

Anyway, I will let this thread die too…

And I’m not going to waste another MB on the subject.

Actually, I was thinking that more detailed versions of the Alternators or Masterpiece lines would have been far better. That keeps the traditional aesthetic, makes for far more realistic transformations than we saw in the movie, and the additional detail possible with the CGI would have made it possible for them to move realistically.

“There have been multiple incarnations of the Transformers. The Generation 1 isn’t the only one – not that the movie resembled the more recent ones either.”

Yes, I know there are more incarnations than the G1 cartoon/comics. Beast Wars, Beast Machines, Armada, Energon, Cybertron, Robots in Disguise, Animated, IDW comics, etc…. I’ve seen or read almost all of them, and those are just the American released versions. All of them were better than the movie, even in the worst episodes.

Even so, the writers specifically stated that they were following the G1 incarnations for the characters, or at least those whose names appeared in G1. The resultant movie, however, proved that to be a lie.

“Agreed, but that was maybe four episodes out of the 70-something episodes of Generation 1.”

98 episodes over 4 seasons, all of which I have on DVD. Not to mention 88 or so comics from Marvel, 332 from Marvel UK (a count which includes the American issues), and maybe the DW and/or IDW comics based on G1. And the episodes or issues I can mention that include the kind of depth I’d hope for are far more than the 4 you mention.

“A TV show can develop characters over time, a 2-hour movie has to rush things and character development suffers. This is a fact I’ve come to grips with.”

Not if the movie is done well, it doesn’t. If a TV show written for kids can pack a world of meaning into one line of dialog, a 2.5 hour movie intended to be for a more grown-up audience should be able to do far more, with the right writers and director. Transformers had neither.

“If the 2007 movie had been a live action version of the first four or five episodes of the TV show… well, just imagine.”

I can, and that would have been a vast improvement over what we got, I’m sorry to say. We got far more development of the robots in those episodes than we got in this movie.

“When was the last time you watched the 80’s cartoon? I thought it was cool back then too but now it’s really corny.”

Early 2007. Yeah, some of the episode were pretty bad, but others could, in my opinion, stand with the best Science Fiction stories on TV today, animated or live-action. And this is just confining ourselves to the original series cartoon, which isn’t the best Transformers has had to offer.

“Would you prefer the movie focus on, say, Bublebee rather than Sam?”

Unfortunately, I have to agree that Sam as our way into the Transformers was probably the best way. But that doesn’t mean we can’t give the robots themselves more time and development. That’s one of the complaints I’ve heard, repeatedly, from some non-fans who have seen the movie. I also would have preferred more time with the Decepticons than we got. Many of the fan favorite characters happen to be Decepticons, and they were treated as non-characters here.

“I guess my point is that the Transformers never had that much more than one dimension to them in the TV show so I didn’t miss it in the movie.”

Unfortunately, for most of the characters, you’re right. Still, there were a number of them that had a great deal of depth to them, even before Beast Wars came along.

“Venom is a great character and S3 was a missed opportunity to develop that.”

That, I can’t disagree with. That’s one reason I’m hoping a Venom movie goes through. I’d like to see him treated as he should be.

Venom is a great character and S3 was a missed opportunity to develop that.

“The visual aesthetic of the robots was completely gone”

You prefer the hand-drawn transformers?

“the characterizations of the robots, what little there was, was completely wrong”

There have been multiple incarnations of the Transformers. The Generation 1 isn’t the only one – not that the movie resembled the more recent ones either.

“At it’s best, Transformers was had some serious science fiction writing, stories that commented on human nature, on the nature of life, and developed characters so that they were more that just one dimensional stereotypes”

Agreed, but that was maybe four episodes out of the 70-something episodes of Generation 1. A TV show can develop characters over time, a 2-hour movie has to rush things and character development suffers. This is a fact I’ve come to grips with. If the 2007 movie had been a live action version of the first four or five episodes of the TV show… well, just imagine. When was the last time you watched the 80’s cartoon? I thought it was cool back then too but now it’s really corny.

“Transformers themselves who were little more than mobile props when they should have been the stars of the movie”

Would you prefer the movie focus on, say, Bublebee rather than Sam? I can’t imagine how this would have worked any better, but then again I’m not that creative.

Well, speaking as a fan of Transformers going clear back to 1984, I’d say it was the fact that the movie got everything Transformers connected completely wrong. There was nothing about the movie that me feel like I was watching Transformers at all. The visual aesthetic of the robots was completely gone, the characterizations of the robots, what little there was, was completely wrong, and the story was missing in action.

That, combined with the complete lack of respect shown to the fans and property during the production of the movie, made it impossible for me to enjoy it. All in all, it wasn’t Transformers.

“but what do you want from a concept like Transformers?”

How about something resembling what made Transformers successful in the first place. At it’s best, Transformers was had some serious science fiction writing, stories that commented on human nature, on the nature of life, and developed characters so that they were more that just one dimensional stereotypes. Some of the best entries in Transformers packed more development into one line of dialog than we saw in Bay’s entire movie. Even at its previous worst, Transformers was treated more seriously and with more respect, and had more of a story to it, than the live-action movie.

“BTW – what about the Transformers story was horrible?”

There’s the fact that it was exactly the kind of thing that the movie makers were criticizing the 80’s cartoon for being. There’s the fact that everything they said they wanted to avoid doing was exactly what they ended up doing, only worse. The movie’s story was practically non-existent, the characters were all stereotypes, except for the Transformers themselves who were little more than mobile props when they should have been the stars of the movie, and the only redeeming feature was the quality of the CGI effects, assuming you ignore the designs of the robots.

What it all comes down to, at least for me, is the movie wasn’t even remotely enjoyable, and there wasn’t even the ability for me to console myself with the feeling that I was watching a Transformers story, not even a bad one. I just felt like I was wasting my life watching a bad alien invasion movie, something like Independence Day with robots. When it comes to entertainment, I expect something more.

That being said, the ‘dark Peter Parker’ would have been better if it wasn’t done in a laughable way. Did the Beegees play in the background when he walked down the street with the black hair and clothes or was it my imagination?

We hear that Raimi was forced to add Venom, and this is obvious when Venom and Sandman team up (after never having met if I remember correctly) with a 90 second “we’re both bad, let’s team up!” dialogue. What was strange is Venom was less than a secondary villain, and the Venom story arc was what every poster and trailer advertised. Didn’t make sense.

I haven’t watched S3 since it was in the theater, maybe I should watch it again and see if my feelings changed.

BTW – what about the Transformers story was horrible? The magic cube that defies the law of conservation of mass (and can turn inanimate electronics into sentient beings) or the bad-a$$ gov’t agents that were used as comic relief? There were a lot of scenes that should’ve been trimmed / removed but the overall story was ok: alien robots fighting on earth to obtain something they both desire. All of the elements are there.

Will there ever be a movie that will win both best picture AND best VFX? Return of the King?

Spider-man 3 had some comic canon problems but was we’ll written and had way more emotional scenes.
^
What was your major gripe about S3 Panda I’m curious.

I thought I would be disappointed by it, but wasn’t so much. It’s not the end-all be-all of action movies, or even of comic / toy movies, but what do you want from a concept like Transformers?

I’m not a big Bay fan either, but I can’t say I’ve dreaded having to sit through his movies (like Sommers: Mummy, Mummy Returns, Van Helsing – those are crap movies).

No there weren’t. I am a fan of the TV show, and I didn’t find anything fun about the 2007 mockery.

As for Michael Bay, I was hoping Transformers would continue the trend of his movies bringing in less and less each time compared to how much was spent making the movie, but it seems that didn’t happen. Too bad.

Oh yeah and like Vic said he makes money and that’s all they care about.

That and the crack.

Vic

Transformers 2 will just be another retarded piece of crap. CGI effects will be top notch as ILM is certainly going to be on board. But as far as story, action and dialogue. It’s going be another migraine inducing affair. How this director keeps getting work is simply beyond me.

I for one enjoyed the 2007 movie. It’s no ‘classic of our time’, but neither is Spider-Man. Bay and Spielberg said they would show us what it would be like to watch 20-foot tall robots fighting and they did, and enough Easter-eggs for the fans of the TV show to make it fun.

Vic

Big mistake, it won’t happen again.

I have to agree with Ed that Beast Wars and Beast Machines, both, were far, far better than the movie released last year, and are far better representations of Transformers than that movie will ever be. That movie was not written for the fans, despite the claims that they wanted the fans to have input into the movie. Having been through that experience, I almost suspect they wanted fan input so they could try to go in the exact opposite direction from what the fans wanted.

Given the extreme lack of respect the fans and the Transformers franchise got from everyone making that film, I’m not surprised they made such a bad movie out of it. Even with free passes to see it I felt ripped off.

I have already decided that I will not, under any circumstances, be seeing Transformers 2.