‘The Mentalist’ Season 5 Details – ‘Dark’ Jane & Red John Reveal

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the mentalist season 5 The Mentalist Season 5 Details   Dark Jane & Red John Reveal

[WARNING - THIS POST CONTAINS THE MENTALIST SEASON 4 SPOILERS!!!]

After six “relaxing” months in Las Vegas, The Mentalist season 4 finale brought Patrick Jane closer to Red John than ever before – or so he thought (again). Though Red John may still be at large, the CBI now has Lorelei, one of his accomplices, in custody. Will Jane be able to “make her sing like a bird” next season?

Speaking with Entertainment Weekly, series creator Bruno Heller discussed what’s in store for Patrick Jane (Simon Baker) in season 5, the dark turn the series will take next season, the move to Sunday night, how some fans will be disappointed when Red John is finally revealed, and much more.

With Lorelei (Emmanuelle Chriqui) firmly in the grasps of the CBI, fans are waiting to see how Jane will get information about Red John out of her. Even though Red John’s accomplices don’t typically survive capture, Heller says he “hopes” she’ll stick around for a bit next season – hopefully long enough to get Jane closer to Red John.

Perhaps hinting at Patrick Jane’s interrogation techniques, Heller says that fans will be seeing a darker side of Jane in season 5:

…it’s not that Jane is No More Mr. Nice Guy, but we’re certainly going to see a little more of that hard darker side of him.

The show is not going to turn into a much darker show, but that character will show more of those colors. We’re getting closer to the meat of what the show is about.

That being said, don’t expect to see Red John officially revealing himself anytime soon. If anything, it will be at least two more seasons before that actually occurs. Being completely aware of how temperamental some series fans can be, Heller says that he knows people will be disappointed when Red John’s true identity is finally revealed:

…if season 5 we just opened a door and said “tah-dah!” and it was some mid-range actor, that would be disappointing. The trick is going to be — and this is coming — bringing the audience along and making them second guess themselves and ask, “Is that him? Is that him?” Red John ultimately is just a man — whenever you see the great criminals reduced to the flesh it’s sort of disappointing. I have two seasons or so to make it come true. I can guarantee that people will be disappointed.

You might already have seen him.

the mentalist season 51 The Mentalist Season 5 Details   Dark Jane & Red John Reveal

When it comes to talk about future seasons, one has to touch upon CBS’ recent decision to abruptly cancel CSI: Miami without providing the producers enough time to end the series appropriately. Fortunately, The Mentalist doesn’t appear to be anywhere near the position that CSI: Miami was when it was canceled. But if it does happen, Heller promises that they’ll know well enough in advance to make sure closure is provided for fans.

It’s the job of myself and everybody else on this show to keep it working as well as it does to ensure we get that final arc. A show that’s been running this long with the degree of success it’s had, we’ll know well in advance of that sort of outcome and we’ll adjust accordingly. I’m not concerned about that.

Of course, making the move to Sunday night may still have fans worried about what may happen to their favorite series. Thanks to Sunday night no longer carrying the terrible programming stigma that it has in the past, Heller has no worries about viewers finding The Mentalist in his new timeslot.

If I thought making a fuss would make any difference then I would feel differently. But there’s aspects of this job you don’t have control over. Our audience will follow us and hopefully we’ll also find a different audience than we found on Thursday nights.

While we won’t for sure know how The Mentalist will do on Sundays nights, CBS’ decision to move the series to the weekends represents their intention to expand their schedule to include compelling series across the entirety of the broadcast week, instead of solely focusing on certain key weekday programming.

So make sure that your viewing schedules are adjusted accordingly, as Patrick Jane takes on Sunday nights this fall.

-

Follow Anthony on Twitter @anthonyocasio

Source: Entertainment Weekly

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  1. @Rian
    I can not see it being McAllister.

    A. He is blown to smithareens.

    B. he did not have a dragon-like response when PJ was calling him out.

    But I will grant them that he whistles & smells like pine since he’s out in the woods in Sonoma.

    • I dont think McAllister is dead, but I do not think he is RJ. McAllister is definitely in the promo, so I dont think the showrunners would be dumb enough to let that slip in a promo.

      • Something I knew and something I know

        I knew that Bertram would be revealed as Red John!

        SPOILER ALERT

        I know that Robert Corrigan is returning to the show.

        What I don’t know is what any of this stuff means.

  2. I am really intrigued by this; why are so many respondents convinced that Bertram is not Red John?

    • @JK

      Because I saw a reaction video to the RJ reveal. It didnt have sound, but I know it is either Haffner, McAllister, or someone from the past or thought dead.

    • Logically, he’s not.

      First, in the episode “Great Red Dragon”, why have Bertram remain as the last man standing of all the final suspects (therefore presumably making him Red John) and then have him escape and not have the confrontation with Jane then and there? It makes no sense from a storytelling perspective. If he truly is Red John then it makes a ‘big reveal’ in the next episode “Red John” completely pointless and anticlimactic. There would be no point in dragging it out for another episode. The only reason would be for him (Bertram) to say, “I’m Red John,” to which the audience would be thinking, ‘Yeah, isn’t that pretty much what we were left with in the last episode?’

      Secondly, aside from storytelling, at the end of that episode they had the promo for the next episode which features Red John’s voice (off-camera) talking to Jane. It is clearly not Bertram’s voice. If it was Bertram he would not be affecting a fake voice when in-person with Jane since Patrick already knows Bertram and presumably knows Red John (whoever that may be) as well.

  3. @JK
    Quick answer:
    He is mean enough & powerful enough & plays, apparently to the worst side of people @ their weakest most terrified moment (like Smith was saying was his case after he killed a girl while high & faced a terrifying “come-uppance” (dead Haffner’s term)). So Bertram the “Secret Santa”, the counterfeit savior, of a whole lotta willing guys who never even met him?

    But what Bertram, as far as character development, on the part of the writing staff, lacks is that special horribleness, tormentedness beyond what is needed to intimidate/ terrify others.

    In favor of him over dead McA though, he is soft on TL.

    Can you IMAGINE Betram being good @ cold readings, inducing trances, planting hypnotic suggestions? Maybe he subcontracts them out to the carny creep who had his daughter executed RJ-style so he could have custody of her baby.

    In a flash of insight, I now foresee Kirkland beating Jane to the punch of confronting & executing Betram (hopefully, many witnesses, so they all learn crime “doesn’t pay”), so Jane doesn’t have to flee the country or go on trial again.

    I wish McA were still alive: the stories he could tell Jane & TL on visiting days….

  4. Bravo Bruno Heller, bravo. If Bruno were ever to read this, I’d thank and congratulate him. Firstly for the cleverness of releasing false complete cast lists for the Red John episode, false synopses and Michael Gaston’s tweets. I haven’t really enjoyed the last 4 episodes greatly because I knew that the reveal of Gale Bertram as Red John approximately a month ago. Bravo.

    I’m now really excited about next week’s episode. The fleeing bleeding man, leaping through windows and meeting Jane in the church is most definitely not Gale Bertram as it is most definitely not Reede Smith which would mean that Red John must be a dead man.

    How brilliant was Michael Gaston! Sensational episode!

    • @JK

      I told you man, dont trust the cast lists. They can be edited, but also can be attributed to the “Previously on the Mentalist” clips. No point in looking at those as clues.

    • I am reading all these and thinking god if only you knew. Guys don’t bother making theories. They are all for nothing. Heller is not a genius, we made him into a genius thinking that he would reveal some great masterplan with all the clues. This is not the case. I know you are probably going to reply with Angry comments telling me I’m spoiling it for you but I’m not going to spoil it for you. What I am going to say is this. Please don’t expect too much in the episode. You are going to be disappointed. Heller’s interview that he will tie everything up in a nice bow is a complete lie.
      I will give you the choice here BUT BE WARNED IF YOU READ THIS GUYS YOU WILL KNOW ALL ABOUT THE EPISODE AND WHAT PEOPLES REACTIONS WERE TO IT. YOU WILL KNOW RED JOHN AND WHO HE IS. This is the reaction page http://www.red-john.info. The reaction was so strong someone made their own page, after that you can head over to http://www.whoisredjohn.com if you want to vent about it. Again I WILL WARN YOU THAT BOTH THESE PAGES WILL TELL YOU WHO RED JOHN IS AND ALL THE DETAILS OF THE EPISODE. SORRY.

  5. Here is my take on who I think Red John is. Bertram and Kirkland both tried to murder Jane. Reede Smith falsely accused Jane of Benjamin Marx’s murder, I can only assume that he had in mind for Jane the same fate as Kirkland once Jane was in his custody. Ray Haffner knew of the forces circling Jane and only obliquely warned him as if wished Jane to be vanquished by the Blake Associates.
    Of the final suspects only Thomas McCallister has saved Jane’s life. Why, when the other Blake Associates were so determined to murder Jane? Red John is fond of Jane and the game he assumes that they’re playing together. I can’t help but think that Red John is the good Sherriff.

    • @ JK
      Um, if we aren’t rid of Bertram, don’t we still have huge problem on everybody’s hands, as he clearly was holding the reins & giving lots of orders in the name of Tiger-Tiger?

      • Bertram and the Blake Association are going to remain a big problem even if Red John is killed. I see the next phase of the arc being Jane and the team working to root out all the people who are or were a part of that group. Not being able to trust anyone is still going to factor in to everything.

  6. I just watched the episode, and I will tell you right now that Bruno Heller deserves a standing ovation. WOW. JUST WOW. He tied up almost every loose end we have brought up on here, and he did it in a way that is smart and well planned, and I firmly believe he knew who RJ would be from the beginning. Can’t give enough credit to that man. DAMN.

    MASSIVE SPOILERS BELOW…………

    LAST CHANCE TO STOP………..

    All I am going to do is confirm a few thing most of you already know, but I will not say who RJ is, because honestly, you dont want me to. The reveal is that good. But I will say that….

    - the Harker description is pretty accurate
    - The Tyger Tyger group has more than one single leader
    - the RJ voice explanation is handled brilliantly, along with all the other red herrrings
    - my resurrection theory was pretty spot on (remember 5/7 suspects are “dead” so that isnt much of a spoiler)

    (my own personal spoiler below)

    - imagine all the suspect are alive…follow the actual clues throughout the series…and you can identify Red John. They didn’t use anything that wasn’t already in the show to tie up the loose ends, so all the info you need is there. I know that is easy to say in hindsight, but it really was right in front of us.

    • I forgot to say…Jane’s skills are never higher than in this episode. And Simon Baker did a emmy worthy job in this episode. Not to mention RJ, who was also superb in every way that I could have hoped.

    • When you say RH description of Red John is accurate that does include not being bald because two of the suspects are bald only leaving one. And would the promos be so stupid to spoil who is RED JOHN because it looks like it

      • All I will say is that…I would have a little more faith in the CBS promo editors.

    • I know it’s not Bertram, and when you say resurrection I start thinking. I am going back to one of my original theories. The one who would play the fool and be close to his work. The corpse who Cho never corroborated by face underneath the plastic but only looked at his shoulder. The one Jane has always had the most contempt for. The one who seems young but could be much older than he looks. The one whose supposed corpse had the skin from his shoulder removed but that still proves nothing. There could have been a tattoo there or not (the skin was removed) and Cho never confirmed the face, he just assumed the records were reliable, despite the fact all the work was done amongst a whole cabal of insiders. Brett Partridge.

      He was the one who was consistently there challenging Jane about his ability to even identify an actual Red John crime scene as opposed to a fake. He wasn’t menacing, he played dumb. He is much older than he looks.

  7. @ Rian & JK
    What is happening here?
    It is definitely a transformation for you 2 cynics to be singing Allelujahs to Heller.

    Are you renouncing all your “Season 4 was a complete waste” comments, JK?
    And how about insisting Heller planned for Jane to be RJ but backed down??

    • Aw are they another troll? boo

      • I promise I am not trolling.

    • @elsmitho
      I stand by what I said as far as PJ=RJ. When the pilot was shot, I believe it was Bruno’s intention to make Jane Red John. But because of Simon Bakers skill and charm, he quickly changed gears. There is so much foreshadowing in the pilot of that its rediculous. But a few episodes, I think that changed. As far as season 4 goes…I am still not a fan of most of it, but I never showed any hatred toward it, other than the Jane “not guilty ” verdict. Which made no sense to me.

      @elsmitho
      I am slightly ashamed that I overlooked Heller’s writing capacity. Because of the massive amount of red herrings and loose ends, I thought there was no way he could tie them all together. But I was wrong. Though there are a few loose ends left, he far exceeded my expectations. For a while I figured he was making it up as he was going along. Mainly for effect and confusion. But again…I was wrong.

      P.S. – I can’t be the only one who thought that of Heller. I bet the vast majority of hardcore fans thought the same thing.

      • Jane is not Red John for one reason and one reason ONLY: syndication money. Execs would NEVER allow it because it destroys syndication profitability.

  8. Well, searching around the dregs CBS has posted on their network website, I ‘ve seen the rather wrinkled bald head of what appears to be some short guy w/ a funny voice & there is dubbing of Jane saying something like, “After all these years, you expect me to forgive me now???”

    Shades of “Les Mis!”

    How can you NOT forgive someone when you yourself are standing in a Catholic church, guilty before God Almighty yourself, if your family’s killer begs your pardon? (Even Hamlet let his faking uncle off when he appeared to be praying….)

    The pigeon sitting on the Madonna’s hand is a bit much, isn’t though? Either Disney or Monty Python come to mind.

    Cleansing CBI & local FBI of Tyger-Tygers does not SOUND enthralling. Maybe they can dress it up like a cross btwn MIB & Ghostbusters & let Cho be in charge.

    • “Cleansing CBI & local FBI of Tyger-Tygers does not SOUND enthralling. Maybe they can dress it up like a cross btwn MIB & Ghostbusters & let Cho be in charge.”

      Season 7 is going to be the last season. There is nowhere to go. And the rating thanks to basketball don’t support anymore.

  9. Correction: Jane’s voice over:
    “You expect me to forgive you now???”

  10. @Elsmitho I’m congratulating Bruno Heller for a masterly season and an incredibly clever campaign of disinformation. I’m afraid that the claims I made about the show are true. Patrick Jane was originally supposed to be Red John as was Tim Carter(which is why the season finale was a 2 hr long special)these are more or less open secrets. Season 4 represented the show trying to find its feet again.

    Throughout the run of the show I’ve complained about the lack of interest shown by the FBI and CBI in catching RJ. The Blake Association explains that, controlling the investigation, disappearing evidence etc

    That was Bertram that we saw poisoning Rebecca but we know that he’s unlikely to be RJ, that in all likelihood he is a Jane red herring to disguise the real RJ to facilitate his vengeance.

    I read an interesting RJ theory, that RJ is Bob Kirkland pulling the strings behind the scenes and Michael, his twin has been playing him. It doesn’t look like Bob in the promo but Bruno ‘ had me going for a long while ‘(the Bertram reveal was sensational) and I’m suspicious of the RJ action shots from the promo. Why do such a masterly job of misdirection only to reveal RJ before the episode.

    All we know for sure is that RJ is a dead man and that the only RJ suspects that we can cross off the list are the final two RJ suspects left standing, Bertram and Smith.

    • You might be right about that being the original course. Also of note, the 5th season of any serialized drama is the benchmark of when a network increases their asking price dramatically for syndication bids. If you get to season 5 and can sell it for syndication the price goes WAY up. That was CBS’s main concern.

  11. @Elsmitho, an excerpt from a very recent Bruno Heller interview;

    The actor who learned he was playing Red John found out at the last moment. “He was thrilled,” Heller said.

    He is also superb. But “The Mentalist” won’t be dwelling on the villain after Sunday’s episode.

    I’m sorry to over stress this point but there was no overarching plan for Red John, after it was decided that Jane wasn’t to be John, John just happened. Bruno and his team deserve the plaudits as does the remarkable performance of Simon Baker which has anchored the show. I’ve always admired how responsive the show is to it’s fan base, keeping Brett Partridge, changing the direction of Red John away from Jane which was the source of the shows originality a whodunit in which the investigating detective did it and Jisbon, the romance that I can’t understand but the female audience want.

    I don’t know who Red John is and frankly I don’t want to know before Sunday’s big reveal.

    • @JK
      I am sorry, but in your above “quote”, it is impossible to discern where your commentary about Jane breaks back in.
      We have been through this.
      Please…..
      We had a clip of Jane horsing around on camera w/ B Heller saying he “might” be RJ, but Heller disavowing it.

      I happened to think the show had distinct high points in Season 4 & that in the first episode Jane is drawing on his feelings as a bereaved parent to know the incestuous dad is faking, hence Jane is no killer, covering up. You do not seem to know that dissociating individuals have access to only part of their internal resources @ a time, whereas one of Jane’s advantages over others has been his willingness to access even his subconscious to seek out even ugly or painful truths. You liked the hallucinogenic tea episode? Truth is, that is the same Jane as Season 1, Episode 1.

      If you have it, please quote Heller distinctly where he says his first few shows were leaning in the direction of Pj is RJ.

      Thanks.

  12. Regrouping….
    The wrinkly old bald head most likely was Stiles. Who is gonna die anyway, so Jane is forced by practicality to be more reasonable than he wants to be.

    And Stiles is forced by his knowing his hocus pocus in front of his congregation is crap, to contemplate the end of his game, how honest does he want to get, seeing Jane struggle & be torn down & still invest every fiber in his being in his quest. Stiles knows he is about to die, he does not deserve absolution, but is Jane good enough to give it?

    Supporting Stiles as RJ is who would be a better pyro-technic showman to create a diversion w/ escape waiting in the wings than Stiles?

    On what was Haffner basing his confidence that “alot of people are very angry w/ Jane & he will have his come- uppance soon.” Haffner @ least of late is a lap dog of Styles. I think he is too young for all the Red Barn drama, but an alternative read would be Stiles outfits Haffner w/ escape, fake corpse & disguise and it is him in the church, faking repentence & somebody nails him when he makes a false move.

    Comments?

  13. Can I ask how all of you saw the Red John episode a week early?

    • @ Endymion.
      I would like to have that info as well, about how to see episodes early.
      All I have had access to is the Episodes to date (I caved in & purchased “season’s pass” from CBS) & one clip posted 11/ 20/13 and one advertiser / teaser that reportedly is being shown on CBS channels, also readily accessible on line @ the CBS app site.

      • My point is I don’t think anyone knows on this site ahead of time as much as they’d like others’ to believe. I was being sarcastic. If they are industry insiders, they truly need something better to do.

        My suppositions are based on what has been seen by the public, including promos.

  14. I will say this: I am bored beyond a bit. Leaves me longing for the days when a simple yet brilliant West Virginian girl known as Starling can go head to head with a character that all others, including Red John, are a mere, pale imitation of being. If the Mentalist was meant to alter my mind about the genre, it failed. It has a decent lead character; ultimately lost in its own serialization despite what anyone wants to say about the writers. Silence of the Lambs still reigns supreme in the genre in every aspect of storytelling.

  15. @ Endymion
    While it is true that it is tempting to slip into imperious tones & attitudes towards others on this site, overall, it is for fun. If it is not fun for you, perhaps your expectations were for some creation in your own head, not so much what has been Heller’s brain child. Just as it is odious to compare one child to another (so reductionistic, besides who made you Judge ), it seems crass & uncalled for to say “The Mentalist” as a body of work is markedly inferior to “Silence of the Lambs”. Beyond classifying in the same Genre, they are quite different.

    For me, except in excessively bloody episodes, I looked forward to each episode of “The Mentalist”. The music was cleverly upbeat, PJ always narrating as he problem solved, so that he was picking apart the monolith of terror & uncertainty. It has been a soothing show, believe it or not, for Avoidant and a fair # of other types of anxious people.

    Which could never be said wrt “Silence of the Lambs” where the intent seems to overdrive viewers’ anxiety & keep it there while tossing in some intellectual challenges here & there.

    Which, if either, has sufficient “redeeming social value” to outweigh the obscene violence portrayed & concepts like canablism, ritual human sacrifices, rape& torture?

    I have appreciated others’ thoughts all the way along, however it makes me hope you & JK are never on any jury that matters to me when you say the first couple episodes had too many hints that PJ must be RJ than for Heller to have had any other purpose for starting out w/ piles of ambiguity.

    Practically speaking, after a 2 to 3 year stay, PJ as RJ would have not made it out of a long term psych unit. He had plenty to work on, integrating his shattered self. The RJ part self would not have been so subterranean that there were no perturbations on the surface.

    Besides, as you pointed out drawing out as long as pissible a show’s run is paramount. Was Heller wanting such a short run that he is convincing you sleuths that PJ = RJ in the opening episode.

    The red herrings you took for conclusive proof of PJ must = RJ are cicumstantial & do not go anywhere.

    Most likely I’m being the imperious sounding one now. So sorry. But I swear. Don’t be in any jury pools if you are going to think jumping to your favorite conclusions makes you smarter or more right than a person who plods, integrating every piece of data slowly or even repetitiously, trying to build a model in his head that will accomodate all the incontrovertable facts.

    Here’s the Sunday night!

    L’haim!

  16. The episode was leaked guys and we have all seen it already. I just watched it there and I have to say that it’s wasn’t what I imagined at all. It’s not Red John that is bad, I don’t mind that its the lack of good visuals and the lack of explanation. Heller obviously didn’t have much of a plan and the whole fact that it was leaked was a godsend because I could have wasted another week on trying to guess who was Red John. I think he rushed it. Anyway goodluck to you watching it. I hope it’s worth while for everyone else at least

  17. @Elsmitho

    Don’t get me wrong. I have watched every episode of the Mentalist which is what any writer of creator of a series wishes the audience to do. They are a success in that way. I just feel they veered off and became lost in their own serialization exposing the fact there wasn’t as much of a plan in their overall story as they would have us believe. I would have to reference another genre on television to make an appropriate analogy.

  18. @Elsmitho: “The red herrings you took for conclusive proof of PJ must = RJ are cicumstantial & do not go anywhere.”

    I never believed Jane was John. That was my point. My point was, despite the red herrings, it could never be that way because they want to sell it into syndication. For obvious reason PJ being RJ would destroy that. That would make a great miniseries, not a 6 year series in re-runs.

  19. I love all your guys’ theories. It has been a lot of fun reading them for a year now.

    Has anyone seen this? USA Today is reporting that on December 1st the Mentalist plot line will time-jump two years into the future and proceed with storytelling from there. That is actually pretty smart. It lets the writers divulge bits and pieces of the aftermath in retrospect over time. Wasn’t somebody saying something about drawing things out works in the writers’ advantage? The article is below.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/21/mentalist-time-jump_n_4317709.html

  20. @ Endymion
    Thinking wrt your post that Partridge makes a very suitable RJ for PJ to face off w/ in our upcoming episode…..

    By the way, the bootleg Episode 8 being shown & hotly debated on line appears to be more Heller being Heller, teasing the sneaky-peakies w/a “fractured flickers” reel. I sense that he has a firm belief that it ought to be the dog that wags its tale, and not the tail that wags its dog.

    But back to Partridge: i agree w/ you that he has been given the most twisted persona, but my major reason for discounting him all along was that PJ did not appear threatened or upset, just grossed out by Partridge’s sophmoric inappropriate remarks, when they were in each other’s presence. Since PJ tends to have perceptiveness wrt people around him, what could possibly be the explanation for PJ overlooking the obvious, that here was the bloodthirsty perv who murdered PJ’s family & was still seeking opportunities to harm pJ for 5 whole years? We have seen how PJ will read the hostile impulse then make a provocative gesture which elicits lashing out & exposure on the part of the hater. (episode 100 had a nice demo w/ the officer who wanted him to go away)

    Bottom line. Partridge has had the elements to be a RJ, but Plotnik said in an interview that he was not aware of his character rising from death for future episodes AND it is a gaping hole that Jane ignored the possibility BP = RJ while working “together” all these seasons, BP did not seem a Babe-magnet that Lorelei & othera would be flocking to him either.

    • @Elsmitho

      Well, unless they’re yanking us off, we’ll know Sunday. Did you see the story that they are jumping two years ahead?

      • @ Endymion
        Yes, I did.
        Thank you for the link.
        Doing the “Rip Van Winkle” approach makes sense.

        It sort of reminds me of the best approach when chewing gum has gotten stuck in hair or fur.
        You do best to chill the whole wad thoroughly, laying an ice cube next to it until it is not sticky.
        Then, using surgical quality dissecting scissors, snip around the base of the wad until it is totally disconnected from the skin, leaving alone as much uninvolved natural hair near the skin as possible. Goal 1 is to get rid of 100% of the sticky stuff. Goal 2 is not to puncture any holes in the skin or scalp.

        The change in format of “The Mentalist” sounds extreme, vague & reminds me of those of us who promised our professors who trusted us that we WOULD surely get our brilliant final research papers in to them, but it couldn’t be until AFTER grades were due, but we wanted “A”‘s on spec, so to speak. And the truth was that we had these huge ideas of terrific importance, but we had minimal skills to pull what we were thinking into an orderly frame of discourse & address it all w/ the skills our profs assumed that they had just taught us.

        I hope they keep the dynamics of the show lively & worthwhile. I doubt I would bet it will be as fun or interesting…..
        I would very much like to be surprised….

  21. @endymion
    I saw the episode because someone leaked a rough cut of the episode on watchseries.lt, but soon after it was taken down. I am not apart of the press or anything, I just got lucky with my timing. And YES…I did watch it.

    @elsmitho
    I agree with basically everything you said in your recent posts, but there is one small thing that is wrong. Haffner is definitely old enough for the Red Barn stuff. He is the same age (roughly) as Jane.

    As far as Heller’s original intentions for Jane…again, there is WAY too much foreshadowing in episode 1 for him not to be RJ (if you want me to explain, let me know). But CBS saw the pilot months ahead of time, and I am sure they forced Heller to change that because of how amazing Baker played Jane.

    • edit: “…for him TO be Red John.”

    • @ Rian.
      Are you “real” psychic?
      Or do you move in privileged inner circles where gossip has a higher percentage of accuracy than I have fingers & toes?

      If not, I am pretty sure the only explanations that would sway me would be stuff like: here’s the date Heller made the pilot here’s the date the execs saw the pilot. Here’s the date they started shooting episode 2,3,4 & so forth.
      Here’s the stuff Heller has to say HIMSELF about his intentions & who else intended what.

      “Mind-reading” is fantasy, only a baby-step short of delusional, yet people do it all the time to make themselves look better or feel better about themselves. It is not a crime or a sin; it is just not accurate. You find out when you try to build on your flakey or faulty assumptions.

      • @Elsmitho I simply feel that you must re-watch the pilot.
        It begins with the tale of a father who brings ruin to his own wife and child.
        Then next we see Jane giving a psychic reading where he plays a father apologising to his daughter.
        After that we see Jane’s grisly discovery.
        I would go further than Rian and say that the change of direction occurred AFTER the first season.

        • @JK
          Forgive my sharpness of tone,
          I am happy to re-watch Season 1 again, but your ASSUMPTION that my lack of familiarity w/ the nuances of what is presented is erroneous.

          To me it is quite clear Heller is answering such questions for the audience as “who is this guy?”, “why should we care.?”, “is he or isn’t he a nut job?”, “why should CBI let him run around w/ them?” while simultaneously drawing the huge underlying question, “If not Jane, if we accept Jane as skillful w/ valid point of view, then who IS RJ & why ARE the official agencies so passive wrt an ongoing serial murderer. To me, it beckons, like the Burning Bush drew Moses. It raises questions. You may like “answers” too much, as they are often premature, or skipping over dimensions that will be important. It is a gift to learn to welcome questions just as willingly.

          There is a Rilke quote about that that I am only half remembering.
          Plus our culture’s trite but true, “Life is a journey….”
          And Jane is, even in S1, E1, more than “Guilty or Not”.

          • @JK
            Thank you. And that isn’t even counting his sleeping disorder, or what he wrote in the book the Dr. found. Not to mention the resembling smiley face to his own or the fact that Jane sleeps comfortably underneath it every night.

            @elsmitho
            You don’t need to get all defensive. Of course we dont know for sure, only Heller and a select few do. All we can do is base it on what was presented, and to me and JK, it seems obvious to us that that was his original intention.

            • @ Rian
              Thank you for finally saying the obvious.
              I will refrain from seriousness from here on as best I am able, except:
              Isn’t it contradictory to say PJ has a sleep disorder yet sleeps comfortably under the smiley face made w/ the blood of his family?

              Never mind.

              For want of something more constructive, I went frame by frame thru the CBS promo that it started running last Sun for this Sun’s show. I take back my earlier observation that the bald guy going down the church aisle was Stiles. This guy is definitely taller than PJ & has those big Dumbo ears sticking out the sides of his bald head, using the funny voice & apparently insisting he was still winning when PJ was under the impression that Bertram’s been cornered & deposed.

              It also appears that the cop working for Bertram that PJ interviewed by having the guy just give nods or change his facial expression, is back (infiltrating the FBI thru a Blake Society connection or what?) w/ a weapon & protective gear. I could be mistaken, seeing Tyger-Tygers everywhere, but his coiffure is tough to miss.

              The rest of that promo was drama, like chasing thru a grave yard (makes sense if you are in the vicinity of a church), shattering glass as someone jumps IN a large (not stained glass) window where it looks like some female in pj’s (jammies, not the guy) was not expecting it.

              Wrt the dynamic duo, doesn’t it seems improbable Lisbon would give PJ her service pistol?

  22. Lest I remind everyone that given the timeline, Jane’s family was murdered 5 years before the pilot timeline. He had already been working with the CBI for five years and on Red John before we ever see him.

  23. @Rian
    Wrt Haffner as potential RJ.
    You noticed he’s a mouth breather, right?
    And just slightly cross-eyed?
    And can not ever seem to best PJ when going toe-to-toe face-to-face, nor is he smooth w/the ladies. Practicing after coaching, perhaps (“I will write a # on this napkin. That is what you will be making as a starting salary.”), but not manipulate sleight-of-hand. He wishes he were. That is pretty obvious.

    Someone teases him & tells him , perhaps that he has a right to everything that Jane has & (the craziness part) Jane does not. That would be either the little voice in his head or Stiles. Either way, he looks to me like kids I sat across the table from in way too many public schools: big adenoids, needing glasses & a bit clueless.

    He could be RJ, but not w/o a puppeteer.

    • @ Rian
      I was wasting time waiting for the RJ Reveal episode, running who might be the real RJ, not dead for real.

      You & I had disparate views wrt to Haffner’s savior faire & social competence & I was flopping around w/ “if not Stiles then maybe his protege”-type musings, so I thought really critically wrt Haffner’s features & what I wrote is what I got. Hopefully, it all is all acting…. Like Jane’s accent.

  24. @elsmitho
    What you just said about Haffner could be said about everyone else on the list, so why even bring it up? Regardless of the suspect, it could be an act anyways.

  25. McAllister?! Heller has conned us Fans. And viewers. And aficionados. Firstly, having a list that had only 3 people who shook PJ’s hand on-screen. Second, having a blind woman describe everyone but Stiles and McAllister. Kill off Jane’s Psychiatrist who also adds the middle age man (still not McAllister nor Stiles) who has a fear of something. And is a good whistler! And finally Heller confessing he wanted Berkeley as RJ JUST LAST YEAR!! Which means he NEVER knew who RJ was bar being Jane or then Carter! We’ve been conned! And both I and Mr King were right. Heller lost his way with RJ after Season 3 finale!

  26. I haven’t seen Ep 8 yet, but appreciate your herald X. McA as RJ truly does jettison alot of theories, seemingly w/o replacement structure.

    I bow to your & JK’s superior knowledge in all things related to TV shows.

  27. I just finished watching the official version, found out Mc A had even larger ears than Bertram (who knew?) than GB.
    Was this identical to the leaked copy??? Seems like it followed the described & maligned plot lined, right down to VP banging head on car window for attention. All pretty weak support for the euphorically wonderful taking-his-time, “who’s in control-now?” death scene w/ RJ.

    Fantasy @ it’s best.

    A 2 yr. holiday is needed for us to excuse Heller & writers for all those dangling stories that didn’t pan out.

    So, PJ had duct taped a loaded weapon under the front pew in the church where his wife & daughter’s funeral had been.
    AND he’d pocketed a pigeon, realizing which suspect was phobic wrt them, not heights? It is hard to imagine jogging around w/ a pigeon in your suit coat

    But again. This episode was fantasy for the fans. I am disappointed w/ the lack of integration & rigor of detail, but the death / avenge (JK, do you still think this kind of Revenge can only be accomplished by someone lacking moral compass?) scene was terrific.

    • @Elsmotho ” it’s just details “. The Mentailst is intelligent entertainment, it isn’t philosophy, literary theory or genre studies. It’s entertainment. Plot holes are the study of paths never taken or false turns.
      Why was Red John so happy to sacrifice so many major players once he had learned of Jane’s list?
      What happened to Van Pelt’s conversion to Visualise?
      Where are all of Red John’s female helpers? Do they represent some kind of feminist serial killer clique?
      What happened to Red John the Cult Leader?
      How did Brett Stiles know where the psychic would be?
      What did Bosco whisper to Jane?

      Sometimes you just have to let go. I’m mourning the end of the finest Det series since Columbo but I’m also enjoying it’s progeny BBC’s Sherlock and Elementary and I’ll soon be welcoming season 2 of Hannibal which is the most intelligent whodunit that I’ve ever seen. There is life beyond The Mentalist, long live The Mentalist!!!!!!

  28. It’s sad that Heller and co created such a vast and clever villain and then, after Whitford’s sublime performance, reneged on such a fitting finale. Season 4 was poor bar Panzer. Season 5 was better but really, after Season 3, I feel The Mentalist should’ve been PJ v Visualize/Other Criminals/Tyger Tyger Group (that storyline could’ve existed). But I’m sad in the slap dash manner RJ ended. And how Heller lost control of a clever construct. I can never accept McAllister as Moriarty or Moby Dick! Although Xander is a fantastic actor deserving of playing the part.

  29. Is Red John really dead? http://tveed.com/is-red-john-really-dead/

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