‘The Mentalist’ Season 5 Details – ‘Dark’ Jane & Red John Reveal

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the mentalist season 5 The Mentalist Season 5 Details   Dark Jane & Red John Reveal


After six “relaxing” months in Las Vegas, The Mentalist season 4 finale brought Patrick Jane closer to Red John than ever before – or so he thought (again). Though Red John may still be at large, the CBI now has Lorelei, one of his accomplices, in custody. Will Jane be able to “make her sing like a bird” next season?

Speaking with Entertainment Weekly, series creator Bruno Heller discussed what’s in store for Patrick Jane (Simon Baker) in season 5, the dark turn the series will take next season, the move to Sunday night, how some fans will be disappointed when Red John is finally revealed, and much more.

With Lorelei (Emmanuelle Chriqui) firmly in the grasps of the CBI, fans are waiting to see how Jane will get information about Red John out of her. Even though Red John’s accomplices don’t typically survive capture, Heller says he “hopes” she’ll stick around for a bit next season – hopefully long enough to get Jane closer to Red John.

Perhaps hinting at Patrick Jane’s interrogation techniques, Heller says that fans will be seeing a darker side of Jane in season 5:

…it’s not that Jane is No More Mr. Nice Guy, but we’re certainly going to see a little more of that hard darker side of him.

The show is not going to turn into a much darker show, but that character will show more of those colors. We’re getting closer to the meat of what the show is about.

That being said, don’t expect to see Red John officially revealing himself anytime soon. If anything, it will be at least two more seasons before that actually occurs. Being completely aware of how temperamental some series fans can be, Heller says that he knows people will be disappointed when Red John’s true identity is finally revealed:

…if season 5 we just opened a door and said “tah-dah!” and it was some mid-range actor, that would be disappointing. The trick is going to be — and this is coming — bringing the audience along and making them second guess themselves and ask, “Is that him? Is that him?” Red John ultimately is just a man — whenever you see the great criminals reduced to the flesh it’s sort of disappointing. I have two seasons or so to make it come true. I can guarantee that people will be disappointed.

You might already have seen him.

the mentalist season 51 The Mentalist Season 5 Details   Dark Jane & Red John Reveal

When it comes to talk about future seasons, one has to touch upon CBS’ recent decision to abruptly cancel CSI: Miami without providing the producers enough time to end the series appropriately. Fortunately, The Mentalist doesn’t appear to be anywhere near the position that CSI: Miami was when it was canceled. But if it does happen, Heller promises that they’ll know well enough in advance to make sure closure is provided for fans.

It’s the job of myself and everybody else on this show to keep it working as well as it does to ensure we get that final arc. A show that’s been running this long with the degree of success it’s had, we’ll know well in advance of that sort of outcome and we’ll adjust accordingly. I’m not concerned about that.

Of course, making the move to Sunday night may still have fans worried about what may happen to their favorite series. Thanks to Sunday night no longer carrying the terrible programming stigma that it has in the past, Heller has no worries about viewers finding The Mentalist in his new timeslot.

If I thought making a fuss would make any difference then I would feel differently. But there’s aspects of this job you don’t have control over. Our audience will follow us and hopefully we’ll also find a different audience than we found on Thursday nights.

While we won’t for sure know how The Mentalist will do on Sundays nights, CBS’ decision to move the series to the weekends represents their intention to expand their schedule to include compelling series across the entirety of the broadcast week, instead of solely focusing on certain key weekday programming.

So make sure that your viewing schedules are adjusted accordingly, as Patrick Jane takes on Sunday nights this fall.


Follow Anthony on Twitter @anthonyocasio

Source: Entertainment Weekly

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  1. After the debacle of season 4, the Mentalist has reorientated itself, changed direction in season 5. What do the fans think about the new corrupt CBI, the dark manipulative Jane and the new Red John hiding in plain sight?

    • Is Jane pretending to get darker to help flush out RJ from the shadows? Season 5 couldn’t have been worse then Season 4. But the Lorelei escape episode was awful.

    • It’s all such a mess. It’s like they’re just throwing possible RJ suspects to keep us interested (yawn). For example, the Is Teresa Lisbon RJ strand. It goes like this: in episode 100 they put in that the first (and only) person PJ shook hands with was Lisbon. Then TL was unfriendly to PJ (i.e. they were not friends from *the moment* they met), when she’s generally friendly to all she meets. Why would they add these points, other than to get people talking and keep us all going?

      The RJ in plain sight and corrupt CBI are tempory story lines and only there to get the season 5 climax which will be rubbed out at the beginning of season 6.

      • The cynicism is quite understandable, for two seasons the show built towards the meeting of Jane and Timothy Carter. Then in an act of sheer artistic cowardice, Bruno Heller did a uturn which was so blatant and unconvincing in one sweep the show lost its audience and its way and it lurched towards cancellation.
        I think that we all need to forgive and forget season 4 like a bad dream.

        • How should we understand The Mentalist? First, as a family drama. The majority of episodes centre around a crime which has broken a family or the investigation of that crime reveals a hidden fracture in a family. It then becomes Patrick’s role to solve the crime and in so doing reunite the family. The fact of Patrick’s loss of his own family enables him to function as the pater eternus, the eternal father.
          So hopefully you’re following me here because I want to talk about Red John and I’m going to use a little Freudian lingo. Freud’s first formulation of the Psyche was as a struggle between two opposing forces Ego and Id.
          It’s not very complex. The Ego and Id are the two forces that motivate human behaviour in psychoanalysis. The Ego is all rationalising, calculating as it tries to control and moderate the irrepressible demands of the Id. The Id is a swirling unbridled ocean of desire, selfish, amoral, immoral with a childlike essence which makes it irresistible. The Ego justifies the desires of the Id which it surrenders to.
          Jane is therefore Ego and Red John, Id. We then understand Patrick’s guilt about the murder of his wife and child as the secret shame of the answered wish ‘Red John freed’ Jane, Panzer, Frye, Wainwright and Bosco, characters that Jane had a difficult relationship with were thus punished by Red John and I recall Jane expressing a sexual interest in Agent D’Arcy ‘great legs’, the next moment Red John stalks her, voyeuristically filming her as she enters the shower.
          Red John has functioned throughout The Mentalist as Patrick’s thinly repressed Id, his subterranean desires. Red John was thus uncatchable because he represented the Self that Jane refuses to acknowledge.
          The drama in The Mentalist has moved from the internal world of Jane to the outer world. The concentration on corrupt authority figures and beaurocracies suggest a new structural presence for Red John. It’s a massive reorientation conceptually for the show. It seems to be moving towards becoming more of a cop procedural but interestingly unlike the other bland cop procedurals that clog up our screens, it seems be critiquing these beaurocracies and structures.

          • Though I’ve speculated that Jane functions as the Eternal Father reuniting the fractured families that he meets. I do not wish to imply that Jane is a perfect father. Jane is vain, cowardly, self serving and emotionally distant, the very essence of a failed, inadequate and poor patriarch. Jane’s obsession with revenge is narcissism personified.
            The theme of absent, abusive and inadequate fathers has lead many to speculate mistakenly that Red John is Jane’s father. This conjecture is only possible when one exonerates Jane the father. I do not believe that we are meant to. Jane was a bad father who was unable to protect his family and whose vanity in angering a dangerous man lead to the murder of his family. Dark Jane is therefore redundant as Jane was always and is forever dark.

            • While an eloquent observation, it is apparent Jane WAS RJ to start with. But as Season One wore on, Heller knew Baker was so brilliant in his role of selfish egotist turned to selfless angst ridden soloist (having lost his family) that he needed to seperate RJ into an actual Other. Hence Carter. But due to The Mentalist being contracted for a 4th Season AFTER Strawberries And Cream was filmed, Heller has had to renege on RJ. And it’s been a big mistake. But here’s another question, Jane is NOT afraid of RJ so, if he wants him that much why not slander him again? Exactly. Lisbon could be hurt. Jane is not as selfish as we think. What drives RJ? The point to prove his masculinity…to his Father. That’s the theme of The Mentalist.

              • I do not disagree but I just wanted to move the discussions on this thread away from Red John or Jisbon speculations to a kind of Mentalist as revelation.
                I want to know how people understand the Mentalist. What is it that fascinates us and captures our attention in this popular drama and makes many of us devote so much time to it?
                Like many fans I’m frustrated and appalled by the Red John storyline but I’m still fascinated by Red John.

              • How does the narrative work? If you extract the superficial ‘ revenge drama ‘ and the cop procedural(it’s without the slavish attention to detail in other cop shows).
                What really happens in the show? It seems that Patrick Jane unites a fractured family each week. He is also a father.
                In every cop procedural there is a conflict between the charismatic hero and a bureaucracy. The Mentalist eschewed this until recently. Like Prime Suspect, the clash occurred between gender and bureaucracy and this is played out through the sexually amorphous hero Jane.
                I know why I like it. It makes me think despite itself.

                • Patrick Jane WAS a Father. Sorry to be pedantic but it’s an important technicality in the scheme of the shows make up. PJ betrays convention and also pushes the loyalty of those closest to him with guess work, manipulation, magic and hypnosis at times. It’s Jane’s tireless lawlessness that somehow finds the perpetrator. I’m more intrigued how these villains’ lawyers haven’t had every Jane case thrown out. And how I hope Lisbon uses Mashburn to bring down Volker. Just for a change of direction. Thoughts?

                  • Is Jane not still a father despite the death of his child? After all his child has not been in any sense unborn.

                    • In respect to the shows ethos he isn’t a Father. He was a Father but as he now doesn’t have a sibling he now isn’t a Father. He hasn’t brought up his Daughter any more then when her life was taken. So he was a Father. Also, Jane’s been asked on a couple of occasions ‘Do you have children Mr Jane’ to which he replies ‘No’. I’ve always found it curious he’d deny it.

                    • I think you’re being a little over pedantic here. Jane is no longer a husband(as his wife is dead)but he remains a father(biological fact)whether his daughter lives or dies.
                      Jane also functions in the narrative as Father, uniting fractured families.
                      Jane as a detective is fascinating, his use of intuition and language is feminine as is the surname he answers to. In a manner similar to Columbo, Jane magically recognises the villain’s guilt then seeks to trap the villain into confessing. Once caught the villain lays bare his or her motives and the brutality of their crime. The confession functions as testimony to Jane’s skills in detection which itself seems to function to aid the audience’s narcissistic identification with Jane. He who can’t be fooled is our guide through the narrative and our guide in the narrative becomes us.
                      I think the narcissistic identification with Jane is the reason why so many fans desire ‘ Jisbon ‘. Jane becomes the virtual proxy by which the male viewer seeks Lisbon or Lisbon becomes the way by which the female audience seeks Jane.
                      The Jisbon storyline like the Red John storyline is so deeply embedded in the show that the realisation of either of these stories signal the end of the show.
                      Patrick will kill Red John and equally Patrick and Lisbon will become lovers.

                    • In the 100th episode Jane shakes hands with Lisbon, Minelli and Judge Dillinger.

                    • He’s also shaken hands with Brett Stiles, Max Winter, Walter Mashburn and Ellis Mars. And the hot headed cop in Season One where Jane keeps checking his pulse (episode where the Son cop killed his unknown half sister). But I think Lorelei’s remark is a red herring. Jane also shook hands with his psychiatrist but it’s only a clue if you believe Lorelei.

                    • And he shook hands with an Avonpark Playboy called Jon Jon!!

                    • Another good suspect (if handshake is true and it’s an on-screen handshake) is Dean Harker. Powerful, authoritative and very dismissive of the victim’s death (a woman) to the point of loathing. Also, he has red hair! Unlikely though.

                    • I mean Harken. He also threatens to contact his FBI friends to throw CBI off the case. On top of this, Jane finds Harken irksome. He also wears a ring which would suggest ‘he is mar’ried (if Renfrew was writing that). Harken works with Chemical weapons and could’ve got the poison that kills Rebecca. Thoughts?

                    • I’m not convinced that ‘ he is mar ‘ is an actual clue. Are we to really believe that Red John left Renfrew to write this message as blood dripped from his throat or whatever? Surely Red John left that wall writing for whatever reason.

                    • I have always wondered that. The other important part of RJ’s persona is that he has to be quite charming to get people to do what he wants. If so, only Minelli, Stiles and Mashburn have the persona from all the handshake characters. But we can’t trust Lorelei’s statement can we? She could be playing Jane.

                    • One question regarding Jane’s list: Why is Dr Towlen Morning on there? He’s only met him as a corpse (His Red Right Hand) and he didn’t shake his hand! Aficionados please answer how this is possible.

                    • There is one KNOWN character who disliked Hightower: Brett Stiles. BUT, in correction to a previous comment of mine, Jane has never shaken his hand.

                    • I think Bruno Heller has reorientated the Red John storyline. My suspicion is that we need not look further than season 4 for Red John suspects. I strongly believe that Red John is in the centenary episode.

                    • I think Lisbon is more of a Mother then a lover to Jane. He won’t hurt her, he loves her and he yet he goes to great lengths to manipulate her and get his own way. In regards Jane as/was a Father, technically he is a father in respect he fathered a child. But the fact he brought about his own child’s demise to the point of not existing anymore (for his own selfish indulgence just to add) equates to him not being a Father. If I have a child I am a Father. If my child were to cease to live then I am not a Father. But was a Father.

    • What???????????? Who is red john?

    • It is amazing the number of people have just disappeared! The show could go on and on just finishing loose ends!I think in terms of the Mentalist, we are left thinking that a show is all in a normal week for the CBI. But the CBI is getting darker , but not corrupt (I hope). Sometime Grace, must be revealed; we know nothing about her family.

  2. why dont we create a group for chatting, for example in facebook. Talking here in the comments takes forever and is kind of time consuming. I would be very pleased if we can share ideas and interpretations somewhere in a chat or something.

    Regards, Big M

    • I’m not on Facebook.

    • Not

  3. SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!The Red Barn is the thirteenth episode of the fifth season of The Mentalist.

    A 25 year old case seems to be linked to the Visualize cult and Red John. Lisbon contemplates about her future after arresting Tommy Volker. Jane narrows down his private lists of Red John suspects after speculating that Red John is, or has connections to the Visualize cult.

    • Maybe Heller will link how Stiles knows RJ after all. Maybe RJ killed Stiles’ former partner? Or IS Stiles’ former partner? I won’t see that episode for 6 weeks. Celebrity Big Brother sucks!

  4. I got a suggestion guyz. Why don’t we trend #thementalist or #the_mentalist on twitter

  5. Guys how about trending #thementalist on twitter, for better communication access and chats. I go by the name of @Ahmed_Sheck on twitter

  6. I speculated some weeks ago about how The Following, with it’s Red John like serial killer would effect The Mentalist.
    It was on lastnight on American TV and starts tonight on British TV. Could I suggest that everyone watches it. The Following is a road The Mentalist deigned to travel.

    • Interesting programme, although it reminded me more of FlashForward because both lead characters have drink problems and very short fuses. I cannot see it effecting The Mentalist.

  7. Keep in mind that the whole “shaking hands comment from lorealai” could be a future person. With that said I do not think Jane has met Red John yet, someone of Red Jon’s caliber on the show has to be personified by an actor/actress who can match his caliber. It will not be some Joe Blow new to the buisness, it will be a seasoned performer. Why is “The Mentalist” so good, well many reasons why but real reason is what makes it so good. It has romance, action, drama, comedy, sci fi, horror, mystery, suspense and controversey and controversey creates cash. This show is amazing a true fan of this show would not care about how long the Red John thing goes on because he really is not mentioned that much. The episodes contain more freelance side quests and main quests like the big companies. Truth is big in “The Mentalist” it exposes the true nature of the world. Corrupt companies and law enforcement is very real, people breaking the rules and law to achieve result of course, and someone standing up and doing the right thing definetely. In the end when this shows does it’s final curtain call and all will be reaveled you will sit back after that last episode of the series and be like “WOW I never saw that coming what a great way to end a series”.

    Look to the futre my friends for it is bright with lots of oppurtunity and failure.

    • Very well said! I will be very disapointed if the CBI guys are guilty of these horrible crimes. They don’t have to be perfect. I am still thinking that Patricks Dad has something to do with RJ and what happened to PJ’s Mom? Everybody has a Mom!


        It would appear that Van Pelt is now a member of Visualise but the question is who turned her?

        • Stiles in Season 4. Or she may be looking for clues as O’Laughlin investigated Visialize. It’ll be 4 weeks before us Brits can view it!

          • But Stiles failed to, didn’t he? So we have three possibilities, Ray Haffner, another member of Visualise yet to be revealed or Red John.
            I’m curious as to why Bruno has decided to cast Red John as a member of Visualise.
            It’s very odd to see Robert Picardo content with such a tiny role.

            • It is curious why Jane is prepared to break Lorelei out of an FBI prison for information on Red John and yet a simple phone call to Brett Stiles would suffice to get the relevant Visualise membership list.

              • But then again has she actually joined Visualise? In season 4 she was sympathetic to Brett Stiles’ pitch, so why wouldn’t she still like the ideas?

                I think that Jane cannot phone Stiles because he has used up his owed favor, but maybe he will try when Brett is back in the country?

                For me an interesting part of the episode was the interaction between Jane and Lisbon right at the end. Lisbon seemed over-anxious to know the names at the top of the list and Jane gives her a look as if trying to read her, perhaps to see if she wants the names to pass onto someone else (her “new best friend” perhaps?).

                And CBI Ron spoke!!!

                • I think Van Pelt’s defence of Brett Stiles and her repetition of the mantra of self actualisation clearly signalled her allegiance. She certainly unnerved the Priest.
                  I wonder if the sidelining of Van Pelt due to Righetti’s pregnancy(oh why didn’t they write her character out)has lead to the writers throwing in the Visualise morsel to add some interest to her character.
                  We know a few things about Van Pelt. We know that she won’t be chasing bad guys or moving from behind her desk or leaving a darkened room.
                  Curious that Jane hasn’t noticed the ever increasing girth of Pelt.

                • It’s very strange. Red John being a member of Visualise seems to be a desperate device to make sense of Red John’s allure.
                  Why wouldn’t Jane contact Brett Stiles?
                  If it isn’t a gaping plot hole and in all likeliness it is a gaping plot hole but if it isn’t, maybe there is something else going on that we’ve barely noticed, a game of cat and mouse with Brett Stiles, testing him, tricking him into helping with the Lorelei escape(what a poor episode that was).
                  Or perhaps it’s just a gaping plot hole.

                  • But Stiles has known who RJ is from the moment his character arrived. That was Season 2!! So either Stiles is RJ, Picardo’s character is RJ or, Stiles’ ex Visualize partner who vanished and presumed dead is RJ. O’Loughlin may have turned Grace.

                  • And Lisbon was at Jane and Stiles first contact. She heard Stiles goad Jane about RJ. She’s a cop and she should’ve followed up. And why did Jane bother breaking out Lorelei? Maybe it was a ruse to see how far down Stiles’ web of contacts go?

                  • I meant how far down Stiles’ hole of contacts. More symbolic then a web.

                  • On a side note, in Red John’s Footsteps, the main non CBI character was played by the actor in Dexter! Is the casting a semi hint?? And Tanner did, if listening carefully, say ‘Red John…(deep breathing as shot)…is….(more panting and grinning at Jane)…you’. It’s still illogical in terms of how Jane can be in 2 places at once but is logical in the way clues point to Jane.

  8. Wrt Jane’s motivation & what drives keep him going thourgh the carnage & discouragements, it has evolved through the seasons, w/ some backfilling hints dropped in. The writers keep the dialogue sharp & so far, they have my trust not to screw around w/ unsupported, uncharacteristic “it just happened” behaviors like Van Pelt wanting to submit to cult life. She’s become an adrenalin addict & has reason to suspect leadership above the CSI unit is overly friendly w/Red John. What was done when searching for Hightower was a pretty good giveaway, plus Red John somehow has access to monitoring cameras, if not more, within their offices. When the uber chief was swapping lines of William Blake’s “Tyger, Tyger” poem w/ the fat boss who had demonized Hightower, it was excruciating to watch Lisbon stay confused & not run it by Jane who could have upped his game internally. Red John had just recited as he cut Jane loose & slaughtered teens” name to make a slasher movie.
    Here’s my read on Jane. He had a lot of self-disgust even before his family was murdered by RJ. He had made a stand by leaving his Dad, feeling it was inauthentic to lie & pick the pockets of sick & dying people, yet by the time Jane had fame & fortune, he could see he was doing what he’d been down on his Dad for doing. (Shades of Darth Vader). So he had his break down, spent 2 years in mental health care, being gently coaxed by the great looking blond psychiatrist to see himself with any compassion @ all, being told supportive, encouraging things he certainly never heard @ home. When some will to live coalesces, he pulls up his socks & has to decide what’s worth living for. Fighting evil is good. He is hypersensitive to cues when there is underlying discord b/c he has been there & @ some level he probably experiences some panic & fear that he may revert to the “bad” old self that was so arrogant & insensitive that he got his family killed. He is smarter, w/ fewer distractions than most people around him. It is clear that he is not living the dream. He appears to be fighting suicidal feelings & drinks in a self-defeating manner when Lisbon has persistently offered a humanizing hand. He admires her & teases her, but feels intuitively that if she gets valuable to him, RJ will just take her out, too.
    It is a novel idea to say Jane’s Dad is behind all the misery that RJ inflicts. Certainly he can recruit minions w/ skills similar to Jane’s. If he had manage to prosper financially, power & revenge would be natural top-of-the list desires. To make Patrick Jane “give up” and behave in an “up is down & bad is good” way. Who else could it be that important to?

    • Well thought out but you do retread familiar paths and your novel idea of Patrick’s father as Red John was put forward by Xenophon, another regular contributor to this thread.
      I don’t want to repeat my objections to it but if you explore the thread you will discover these for yourself.
      Before Red John, Jane was content or more precisely did not realise that he was not content. Red John represents what Joseph Campbell dubs ‘ the heros call to adventure ‘, he must leave his home, his family, defeat the villain(unite with the villain), returning with the new boon.
      Jane is motivated by guilt and shame. These are quite complex factors which cannot be understood without a little Freud. I’ve already set out the Freudian position previously so I’ll be brief. Jane’s guilt is the recognition that Red John satisfied a secret unexpressed wish that he wished to be free of his family thus Jane finds himself reborn, an authentic actor, whereas before he was a crook and a charlatan, now he is a seeker of truth and justice(revenge). Here we see the similarity of Jane and Lorelai as children(figuratively) of Red John.
      Red John functions as Jane’s repressed psyche(bad Jane)punishing those who Jane dislikes ie Panzer, Bosco and his team and claiming the women he desires, Agent Darcy, Rosalind Frye.
      I would be very surprised(and perhaps a little disappointed) if Bruno Heller made the symbolic, literal, that is Red John as Jane or Jane’s father.
      Does Jane experience panic(which is a kind of vertigo)in his pursuit of Red John? NO. He’s tumbled down the rabbit hole, waved goodbye to Kansas, swallowed the red pill etc Jane has changed too profoundly and his pursuit of Red John is far too obsessive. If you’ve seen the latest episode The Red Barn, it won’t have escaped your attention that Jane’s wall chart mirrors John Doe(Seven) and Joe Carroll’s friends(The Following). It is disturbing, notice Lisbon’s reaction to it.

      • I am not up to date on the episodes, owning Seasons 1 through 4, but little access to Season 5, as we don’t “do” Cable.
        I am very well versed in Freud, psychopathology, etc. It is sad when you want reductionistic thinking to mythic prototypes of a wonderfully complex “everyman” w/ extra powers doing battle w/ unseen, but verifiable evil.
        Our hero’s prime motivations are not guilt & shame. No doubt he feels them, but also kindness, ability to relate well to his team in the here & now,generativity, etc. Have you not noticed that the people who tell him he would have been fabulous if he were not so damaged, all have mordant stories that suggest that they work for RJ? Stiles, the boss above him, the guy Jane shot, the head of the cult….
        Credit Jane w/ genuine strengths, otherwise we would not be so avidly tuning in to learn from him.
        By the time he emerged from intensive mental health care, he would’ve gained perspective wrt guilt & shame & it is likely he compartmentalizes feelings (very common in high functioning PTSD) so he can use or over-utilize various cognitive & intuitive “ways of knowing”. He has been to the Abyss & over, so he has that “I have nothing to lose & no more apologies to make, but I will not bend over for anybody” defiance & desperation. While he is no poster child for mental health, he is not a psychopath & his narcissism is not the pathological type that must be constantly using everything & everybody around him to pump up his self-esteem.
        I only found your string of discourse last evening & so appreciate it.
        I do not expect to have that much to say, but try not to be too much of a big shot, ok? It is better to learn from one another, right?

        • Jane’s quest to quench his thirst of vengeance is equally selfless as it is selfish. He wants to avenge his family’s deaths while also avenging his error of slandering RJ. Jane obviously has a deep hatred of Red John but knows he has a powerful adversary. Yet Jane isn’t scared of him. Many times Jane has said ‘If Red John wants me, he knows where to find me’. But the strange anomaly is Jane could blaspheme Red John again and goad him into meeting. Or ask Stiles who he is!

        • Is Patrick Jane an Everyman character? Does his appeal lay in our recognition of his simple humanity and his similarity to ourselves? Or does the fascination with Jane chiefly lie with his magical intuition, his showmanlike charisma, he’s always ” the smartest person in the room “. Our identification with Jane is narcissistic, we want to be ” the smartest person in the room “,
          If Jane is motivated by kindness, gentleness etc, why doesn’t he simply forgive Red John? Red John has many victims, wives, daughters, husbands and fathers but Patrick is the ONLY relative shown who is pursuing Red John. His desire for vengeance is unnatural, his daughter(a messenger sent by his Psyche as a warning)calls him ” creepy “.
          Can you explain the depth of Patrick’s guilt without the shame of secret wish fulfilment? And can you also therefore explain why it is not shared by any other character who has suffered in a similar manner?
          Red John can only be understood as Jane’s repressed psyche, his Other. The scenes where Jane encounters John would not be out of place in Freudian literature. What did Lacan argue, that we are unable to recognise ourSelves, so each encounter with the Self is clouded by misrecognition.

          • Yes, Jane being Red John could be the only conclusion logically. Yet there’s still illogical reasoning in terms of Jane being elsewhere in the few RJ scenes. Should the viewer pay attention to a ‘drugged up’ hallucinating Jane regarding the episode Jane ‘meets’ his Daughter? Taking points from the show though: Jane has never reminisced about his Wife and Daughter (except when pointing out RJ killed them). Is this because he was too busy conning people to have time with them? He never mentions his Wife’s name either. Was it part of his therapy? The reason Jane’s past is so vague is because, if Heller chooses to, he can make Jane be RJ. And it would be logical if dissecting Jane’s character but illogical if following the events of the programme.

            • Jane is a psychopath. Jane has killed twice without remorse, Dumar and Tim Carter. Jane also planned an execution with Rigsby. Jane also goaded Red John into disposing of Panzer.
              Because Our, the viewer’s, narcissistic identification(our wish to be Jane leads us to become Jane) with Jane is so strong, these “anomalies” have passed us by without being questioned.
              Has anyone noticed how morally suspect Jane’s allies outside of the CBI are?

            • Jane is a psychopath. Jane has killed twice without remorse, Dumar and Tim Carter. Jane also planned an execution with Rigsby. Jane also goaded Red John into disposing of Panzer.
              Because Our, the viewer’s, narcissistic identification(our wish to be Jane leads us to become Jane) with Jane is so strong, these “anomalies” have passed us by without being questioned.
              Has anyone noticed how morally suspect Jane’s allies outside of the CBI are?
              And I completely agree with Xenophon’s last update.

              • While I agree that PJ has psychopathic tendencies, your examples, in my view are slightly flawed. The death of Dumar was to save Lisbon’s life. He killed the person closest to his family’s killer to save the woman closest to him. Carter was killed in the belief he was Red John. That was vengeance not psychopathic. However, the burying of the criminal in a coffin and the various inhumane tactics used to snuff out the guilty is evidence of Jane’s amoral nature and psychopathic attributes. And as the camara pans out in the first episode, the tv show camara on view has a red light.

        • I am enjoying your contributions but I think we’ve been watching different shows. Jane refuses to heal, to move on, to build new healthy relationships. The only woman he has slept with since his wife is the lover of the man who murdered his wife and child. Jane is also happy to betray those close to him in pursuit of Red John. He is happy to work with Brett Stiles, a master manipulator and exploiter of broken people who has probably more than a few murders on his conscience as well as Donnie Culepepper.
          Patrick Jane has been identified within the series as a psychopath.
          Christianity has created the idea that heroism has something to do with virtue. This wasn’t so for the Greeks who gave us the word, Achilleus, Herakles and Oedipus were the least virtuous characters but they earned the name due to the nature of the task they undertook. The pursuit of Red John is itself heroic but Jane, manipulative and cowardly, is far from virtuous.
          This is a show about Revenge. Is redemption possible through revenge? I wish to emphasise this ‘ Jane’s guilt is unnatural ‘.

          • I think we’re watching the same show but from different perspectives. I place myself into Jane’s character and I know if I was a master reader of people, I’d go to any lengths to avenge the deaths of my family. What is justice? What are morals? The Mentalist questions our own ego and to what lengths will we strive for a vengeance that we may possibly never have? I think Jane is more intelligent then most but his basic desire is a natural instinct. But he is sycophantic. He may well assist CBI but only so his final objective is to kill. And deep down, in the face of extreme situations, we’d do the same.

            • Lol I was not addressing you, Xenophon but another interlocutor Elsmitho. I think we, Xenophon and myself, have different opinions about what we see but I believe Elsmitho and I seem to belong to difference universes. In my universe the Mentalist is a revenge drama with a morally ambiguous hero. Elsmitho sees the Mentalist as therapy concerning growing and healing and in particular how an individual copes with trauma. It’s a wonderfully sympathetic theory but I’m not too sure about it.

            • By the way Xenophon I completely agree with your assessment of Jane’s character. Jane has experienced a terrible trauma and the desire for vengeance is natural but his guilt, his obsession with Red John and his refusal to move on are not.
              Jane is too narcissistic. The struggle with Red John, the cat and mouse, the game ‘which he(Red John)keeps on winning ‘ is the titanic battle of titanic egos.

  9. Is Hamlet a psychopath?
    If you find yourself in a dream in PJ ‘s situation, what would you do? That is what
    I mean by “Everyman”. C’mon, you guys. Sure you have the “flight” option: try to get a new identity & move away, live in fear. Or, after some professional gluing together of what is left of your sense of self & sifting through any reasons to bother to painfully live on, you chose the “fight” option. PJ has been savvy, or lucky, hanging around w/ an ethical team that needs him just as he needs them for: structure, support, positive relationships, but w/ very firm boundaries, material to sharpen & share his skills over & agents who teach him SOP.
    That he is now shedding blood himself is a threshold, but he is the last in his group to have crossed it. He has undergone de-sensitization since Day 1 when he would shake his head & look away if anyone even offered him one. Really, what would you do if a killer had decided you were fun to torment? What would be a worthy enough goal to put up w/ the emotional pain & reminders? I do not think he rehearses his hate b/c w/ it comes crazy disorganized thinking & feelings. Which is probably why the reason RJ keeps doing grotesque things to arouse PJ’s crazy hatred hatred he tries not to think about b/c he can see it is going to be a patience game to overcome the nemesis. PJ’s power is not from his hatred, but from a while hearted determination that this rabid dog’s influence has hurt way too many people & if it is his “quest” to eliminate it, fine. You never hear him say he is going to make RJ suffer the way he has made others suffer, drink his own blood, etc.
    As for who is RJ?
    Since you are most likely very right, it can’t be PJ’s Dad since that would be silly & forced (though I wish he would see if his Dad has been jail, since RJ has been, right?), my vote would go to the fat boss who collected Hummel figurines, murderously pursued Hightower, had a tupperware sealed w/ duct tape in his safe, would probably feel very safe w/ a blind lover & is the type that would’ve joined Visualize as a young man, trying to rid himself of aberrant thoughts while seeking techniques to obtain power over other people. His departure co-incidered w/ the death of the un-RJ’s wife in jail, just after PJ told CBI he was going to interview her,

  10. You must be right.
    We are paying attention to completely different levels of the show.
    “Refusing to heal”.
    We will see.

    Have fun.

  11. Well, your assessment of me is reductionistic, as is the way, JK, you insist on viewing PJ.

    Labels are not definitions.

    What do you suppose your motivations might be to jump to conclusions w/o convincing data & then defensively hold your turf.

    I am not feeling much give & take going on.

    • I am not antagonistic to your views, Elsmitho. I simply do not hold them myself and I am a reductionist. My summary of your views were meant to be concise not insulting.
      I haven’t read Hamlet in a while but it will suffice for my purpose. Hamlet represents Shakespeare rewriting of the Orestes myth. Shakespeare’s characters and their motives are therefore completely recognisable to the audience, in advance of seeing the play. The original story concerns justice from what I recall Orestes after murdering his mother and her lover for their murder of Agemnon is pursued by the Fures for his blood crime. Athena inaugurates a court to decide his fate(the mythical origin of the justice system). The motive of neither Orestes nor Hamlet was not revenge but duty.
      Patrick Jane’s motivation is revenge, he wants to make Red John suffer to this end he subverts the justice system and he has also killed, twice and participated in the slaying of another. Patrick Jane is not a good hero. The good he does is more a happenstance in pursuit of Red John. That is my view.
      Your view is different. I do enjoy reading your updates. I just do not agree with them.
      When Jane released Lorelei from prison, did he at all consider the role she played in the kidnapping of Wainwright or any other murders or abduction that she has participated in? Our Jane’s focus is on Red John, he is indifferent to the chaos his pursuit of him causes and I wouldn’t have it any other way. The Mentalist is a revenge drama disguised as a cop procedural.

  12. OK, BK. So you are not much into being a profiler type. More a cut-to-the chase type? And you frequently say whole episodes or season are “bad” or a waste, criticizing the creator + writers for the creative product they are turning out. I would venture to guess that not appreciating certain levels of foundations are being laid contribute to your harsh judgments.

    From my POV Shakespeare wanted most to create a literary work of art w/ humor, wisdom, skill in developing characters + plots. That he would choose a classic myth or historical event to drape his drama around does not really mean that is what the play is about. Why is it just about every English speaking actor in the world aspires to play Hamlet? The character is so well drawn, he expresses core conflicts common to many of us except for the magnitude. He showns no remorse for killing Polonius. Certainly none when he finally overcomes his own fears + self-doubting to show a final Kingly act of grabbing to murderer of his father + his mother by the neck + pouring the miscreant’s own poison down his throat. Yet the show is not about how Hamlet becomes a psychopath. Usually after 2 hrs of squirming in their seats, a fair proportion of the audience is wishing he Would just get on w/ the execution.

    While perhaps not Shakespeare, I say let the Artistes tell their tale, including character development as skillfully as they are able. If they start letting the audience choose what should + shouldn’t happen, like “Dancing w/ the Stars”, it have a totally different feel to it + I probably won’t think it as interesting.

    Are you aware of the Latin dictum:
    “People in the free seats boo the loudest”?

    • Excuse my loud roar from the cheap seats, Elsmitho.
      Season 4 was/is appalling and I found the Lorelei escape episode more than a little vacuous.
      I know you disagree Elsmitho but perhaps your argument could do with a little terseness.
      Hamlet is primarily about Duty. Will he do what is fitting for a wronged son? What is fitting for him to do? Will he continue to vacillate?
      The Mentalist primarily concerns Revenge ” I didn’t think your ideas were so bourgeois and conventional on the matter “. Will Jane find Red John?
      Comparing Jane with Hamlet is not a fitting analogy.

  13. Enough w: names.
    No one who knows me has ever called me bougeoir.

    And I do not think you could get a passing grade in a Lit. class w/ your explanation of what Hamlet is all about.

    Hamlet was a guy in a situation.
    PJ is a guy in a situation.
    How will they handle it?

    You are correct the TV show writers may not be churning out great art @ this point, but it is coherent work so far for me.

    Just so you are aware.

    • I wasn’t insulting you Elsmitho. There is a scene in The Mentalist when Patrick and Lisbon clash over Red John. I believe that Lisbon accuses Jane of being more interested in revenge than justice to which Jane responds ” I didn’t think that your ideas..,,,,,”
      You think that there is some worthwhile comparison between Hamlet and The Mentalist. I do not because the authorial intentions are so different. Shakespeare’s Hamlet was drawn from the Orestia(Hamlet’s descent into madness also brings to mind Achilleus’s more maudlin moments)and like the Orestia it was a meditation on duty. It is was also a comment upon the Classical tradition from which it came.
      The Mentalist is popular entertainment, a pop cultural mish mash of cop shows, Derren Brown and serial killers(Seven). It’s purpose is different. Jane is a man set on vengeance at any cost.

  14. Ok. You certainiy are right about the overarching reason for the show: how will PJ’s do-or-die personal Odyssey for revenge play out?

    There is plenty of commentary on the foibles & down side of insisting on being a monomaniac until his quest is fulfilled, PJ has a point that vulnerability while in the cross- hairs of RJ is just inviting RJ to intrude & hurt him & the innocent some more.

    I think the writers have fun w/ theme & variations playing out w/ characters. If Grace is now pregnant thru rape of RJ or anyone else associated w/ Visualize, her highest aspiratiom since the beginning of the show has been to be @ least as tough & true-blue as her team mates, plus her foray down Lovers Lane turned out to be a major con. My guess is she’s trying on PJ’s motives, methods, etc on for size, hoping also to look smart instead of gullible when Jane finally gets his nemesis. There is no way PJ considers Stiles a friend. Maybe “the enemy og my eny isy friend” for awhile if Stiles is currently afraid of RJ, but otherwise Stiles would rather lie to PJ than self-didclose. His business empire is built on deception.

    I have seen the movie “Seven”.
    I did not consider it prototypic or really memorable.

    • Grace isn’t pregnant. Amanda Righetti the actress that plays Grace is.
      Grace should have been written out of this series or the pregnancy of Amanda written in. Having her seated, behind a desk or in the dark is ludicrous.

  15. Oh…
    I was responding to another contributor’s comment that Grace was pregnant by RJ.

    Thanks for clearing THAT up.
    Feeling a desperate need to start catching up w/ Season 5, I tried the reportedly free dot eu & btv links recommended earlier by participants, but iTunes pops up demanding $2.99 less than a minute into the episode.

    I guess I will have to re-think getting cable.
    Up to now, it’s been more fun to get all the “Castle” seasons available @ the same time on eBay & go to town. Columbo, Monk, Psych, Mork & Mindy binges, now the Mentalist. Either the show hangs together when watched back-to-back or it gets off-putting pretty fast.

    But it is kinda goofy to be asking questions about stuff that is not even part of the real show.

    I have already thought of the paradox of the 5 blind men ferociously disagreeing wrt what an elephant is like b/c one had hold of the trunk, another the ear, another the leg, another the flank & the last had a grip on the tail, the way we are are amazed @ one another’s POV.

    Me getting hold of not- the – story feels like realizing I grabbed a cobra instead.

    As to having a pregnant actor hold onto her role: isn’t that a SAG requirement? Still what you are describing, JK, does sound lame.

    • If the respondent is I, I suggested if Red John had raped Grace. The reason for that is Jane perceptibly remarked on Van Pelt’s dark secret in a very early episode and that, with the new revelation RJ raped is what brought me to ‘throw out’ that idea. Maybe Van Pelt is equally seeking revenge (he did manipulate her via O’Laughlin too) but the viewer isn’t being streamed that storyline directly. Thoughts?

      • I would be very surprised if RJ had raped Van Pelt and if Van Pelt had suffered sexual abuse at all.
        Prior to O’Laughlin she entered easily into sexual relationships with men and enjoyed the power her beauty wrought. I have met unfortunate women who have experienced such things. The one quality she seems to share is ostracism from the family unit. We never see Van Pelt’s family but we know that she was close to her father who taught sports as both Jane then O’Laughlin allude to. She’s über feminine(Lisbon upbraided her ” did you bring luggage?”) but she’s also a bit of a tomboy which again suggests the desire to impress a father.
        What appears to be the case now SPOILER ALERT is that she is a member of Visualise. She wants to be ” powerful ” to enable her to do good. That would suggest that she’s a recent convert because there’s a sense of autonomy. How Visualise will aid her in the world. Eventually of course Cults swallow the individual whose personality and volition is surrendered to the group ethos. How can I best serve Visualise?
        Van Pelt seemed to resist Brett Stiles and so another must have turned her, Ray Haffner, or another member of Visualise yet to be revealed or Red John.

        • Having re-watched parts of the godawful Season 4, I am not convinced Van Pelt rebuffed Stiles. She did chat to him a second time. ‘You’re upset…Van Pelt isn’t it? Close your eyes. Think red smoke. Now breath it out. There. Better?’ – Stiles. ‘You’re good. Not as good as Jane though. But thanks’ – Van Pelt.
          Admittedly I’ve condensed the chit chat. However, Van Pelt is single minded and attracts the wrong types. The BF who tried to kill Jane and O’Loughlin. Only Rigsby is decent. And her Auntie is a psychic.

      • Elsmitho I remember the blindmen and the elephant parable from middle school. I shouted out ” haven’t the blindmen ever heard of an elephant?” It was an incredibly rare moment of eloquence.
        We all know what elephants and cobras are without ever encountering them which is how film works its magic. We understand film like we understand grammar, we are not taught it to speak, habit, convention and the familiar guide us through film.
        There are narrative conventions which we intuitively understand due to our vast unacknowledged experience of film.
        Patrick Jane drinks tea, in film that means he’s cool headed and cultured.
        Patrick wears a suit with his top button undone – he’s a rebel. The other plain clothed officers in the CBI wear a tie with their shirts – conformists.
        It’s important when we discuss The Mentalist that we are aware of its genre and narrative constraints, that it is television series.
        The Mentalist is a cop procedural, the genre requires the conflict between an individual and a beaurocracy, frequently the narrative revolves around a charismatic individual with a magical detecting ability ie Columbo.
        Patrick Jane’s pursuit of Red John ought to remind you of The Fugitive’s one armed man.
        What I’d like to empathise is the self referentiality of the televised art which borrows from and seeks to remind one of shows and movies.
        The Mentalist is not Hamlet but it is many other shows and movies that we’ve watched and enjoyed.

  16. I’ve just finished watching the Dumar episode and now I understand the Panzar episode.
    Jane is talking to Panzar, he pauses and stares almost hypnotically at the red light on the camera.
    Some have interpreted this pause as Jane flipping some kind of mind control switch to become Red John.
    After Dumars arrest in the barn, Jane realises that Red John was watching him on camera and was present. Jane stares at the red light on the ceiling camera.
    Fast forward to the live debate with Panzar, Jane turns towards the camera and sees the red light this reminds him of Dumar’s arrest and the cameras in the barn. Jane realises at that moment that Red John is always watching him. He then manipulates Panzar into insulting Red John on air.
    Has anyone else noticed that barns appear to be a constant motif in the show?

    • Yes. Jane was trapped in a barn, in the Tommy episode. Although both yourself and Elsmitho are arguably more cultured then myself (I’ve only read Romeo And Juliet in regards Shakespeare), if The Mentalist is based on a classic novel, it has to be Moby Dick. And we know about Ahab’s demise in his lustless search for revenge. On a different point…as much as bad Fathers are also a constant theme in The Mentalist, the lack of a Mother is also apparent. We know nothing of all the Mums of the CBI crew and Cho never has mentioned his. It’s just a point I wonder if anyone else noticed? Red John last killed the Mortuary Attendant in Season 4. He’s due another!!

      • Xenophon I do wonder about the Barn and Cabin motifs. I’m a little busy over the next few months but I’m tempted to reread Bachelard ‘ Poetics of Space ‘ and have a good think about them.
        The dread of Patrick as Lorelei lead him into the cabin which reminded me instantly of the cabin built by Red John and Dumar.
        The barn which Tommy burned with Jane inside and the barn which Visualise and Red John toiled in without success. We know that Red John was an inadequate farmer who mistreated animals. Fascinating.

  17. JK,
    I am sure you are right & I have not watched nearly enough tv to start lumping shows.

    Doing that seems to be “mind-reading” the writers, presupposing they can not be original or something.

    In writing, there is a device called ” the McGuffin”… everybody talks about it, it arouses great consternation, but it is kept hidden until the end & then it is “not so much”.

    In the “Maltese Falcon” the black bird was the McGuffin: all the intrigue, betrayal, shifting alliances, exposure of how Sam Spade does & doesn’t so business & when the black bird finally shows up, its a fake & Spade’s closing line is the classic condemnation on all such fool’s gold: “its the stuff dreams are made of”.

    Heller has explicitly told us people are going to feel let down by the exposure of RJ. RJ is serving as the McGuffin, which is why he can’t be center stage every wk

  18. X is right, everybody lost their mother too soon, as far as we can make out. Rigsby & Lisbon for sure. Making the set up not unlike PJ as Peter Pan & CBI as Wendy & the lost boys (‘knew that would get your goat, JK)

    Seriously, Hawthorne’s book is a classic b/c it is a cautionary tale…. It is what PJ would be if he thought of RJ 24/7. PJ is aware. He is not, to my eye, slashing & burning everything in sight, pinning everything that is wrong w/ the world on this target. He does the opposite, doing what he can to dampen the impression that big bad RJ needs chasing.

    Emotionally, i am hanging w/ the writers’ opening proposition that Lisbon, Cho, Rigsby, & even Van Pelt have bonded & will not let each other down. PJ often demonstrates a snotty adolescent attitude (“you go to that meeting, but I’ m not going”), but I can not recall him demeaning or sowing discord among the core group members. He likely has difficulty believing in true loyalty & sacrifice, but it does not look to me like he is sabotaging it out of bitterness or envy.

    He plays w/ their heads, but they just count it as part of their job & after the dust settles, remind each other that b/c PJ their unit closes more cases than any other outfit.

    It is annoying see the jaundiced attitude you & JK seem to need to hold. People seem to warm to him quickly & are generally the better off for having met him. Inconsistent w/ true psychopath. You sound abit like the guys in HS criticising the QB, but some of it is sour grapes.

    As far as RJ related killings, isn’t he as likely to have had a hand in duct-taping the former boss that PJ called a “Mama’s boy” to a speaker conveying RJ’s voiced threats in the kid-nap vehicle, so that he was gunned down, mistaken for RJ @ the end of Season 4, as in the execution of the morgue tech?

    Do you think the legging, nosey, always-getting-it-wrong FBi agent had a hand in kidnapping that little pischer since she had just been talking to him? And then she silences him in a spray of bullets a little while later.

    Back to Moby Dick. It is named for the whale, not for the protagonist, Captn. Ahab. Ahab dies & we are not ever told what becomes of Moby. So whose the “winner” in the eyes of the author?

    • Elsmitho I do not mind the Peter Pan reference because it’s entirely accurate and a wonderful insight.
      Before I continue I must reveal something. I actually wrote a paper on Peter Pan(J. M Barrie).
      Peter Pan(Puer Aeturnus)is one of the most misunderstood literary works. Properly understood, Peter Pan represents a kind of evil. To coin a Freudian term, Peter Pan(his surname drawn from classical mythology and having the same root as pandemonium, panic)is Id, charismatic, people are drawn to him seemingly against their will and unable to resist him, Id is not only unconstrained by rules but is also hostile to them, creating chaos in his waike. Id is pure libidinal energy, sexual, violent, violating, morally amorphous but irrestible and somehow possessing a childlike innocence. Does this sound like anyone in The Mentalist?
      So Captain Hook(Ego)forever trying to control and capture Id, unable to recognise Id or Peter Pan as actually himself which made Peter appear elusive, obsessed by and painfully aware of death(the ticking crocodile). Destined to lose and always losing as is the fate of those without self awareness. Does this sound like anyone in The Mentalist?
      Quite interestingly, the Lost Boys(the children of neglect who have ‘ fallen out of their prams whilst their mothers were not looking ‘)are actually ghosts, having died when abandoned.
      Excellent. Red John is the Mcguffin. The Mcguffin is what Joseph Campbell named ‘ the call to adventure ‘. The Hero is forced to leave his family to go on a treasure quest the treasure or ‘ boon ‘ the hero gains is always self knowledge though that may not be the reason for the quest or the end that he is pursuing. Red John is Jane’s call to adventure, mythically speaking, Red John’s murder of Jane’s family freed Jane to go on his quest. Jane helps people gaining self knowledge as the quest unfolds but that is not the reason for his quest(and whilst he is unable to recognise Red John as himself, Red John will be forever elusive).
      According to Freud and Jung(reinterpreted by Joseph Campbell), Patrick Jane is Red John. Happily Freud and Jung do not write The Mentalist but their influence is there for all to see.
      PS the relationship between Captain Ahab and the Whale is not dissimilar to Peter Pan and Captain Hook. Discuss

  19. Who would Hollywood convention choose as Red John? Discuss
    I’d argue that conventions of film narrative would have 3 suspects, Virgil Minelli(former CBI chief), Hollywood has long loved the betrayal by father figure(Twisted, L.A Confidential). Patrick Jane himself(Fight Club, Angel Heart) and Rigsby, betrayal by someone we’d least suspect(Usual Suspects, Scream).
    Of course we do have CBI Ron, the one we’d least suspect because he had very little screen time and was just another person in the backdrop(Seven). It has to be said though that David Fincher did smuggle Kevin Spacey, Hollywood’s hottest property, into the backdrop.
    Can anyone add to this list?

    • I guessed Spacey was Soze within 5 minutes of the film. I’d choose Jane’s Father as Red John purely because it would make sense to a certain point. Jane’s The Boy Wonder but the Dad will always be a step ahead. And also, I selfishly called that ending a while ago. Moby Dick and Peter Pan similar in meaning? Yes. But there are many classic literary pieces of work that have the same basic elements: lust, revenge, narcissism. I actually see Jane as The Mayor Of Casterbridge. A lot of symbolism from the novel can be applied to our main protagonist. And on a slightly pointless discussion, we presume The Mentalist is attributed to Patrick Jane but surely it could be for Red John?! And jumping to another point, Jane and camaras: Surely it stems from the chat show when Jane slandered RJ thus losing his family? Just a thought.

  20. Thanks,X.
    PJ: where do we think he got his training in hypnotism & other persuasive skills?
    Was RJ a break off competetor to Stiles, explaining why they have so much dirt & so little respect for each other?
    Is PJ actual an unknowing shill for RJ & his cue to display his pre-loaded schtick is a flickering red light?

    The original “Manchurian Candidate”, the one w/ Frank Sinatra as the buddy, was entirely credible as far as working w/ conditioning is concerned.

    That would be a dark PJ: to find he is a drone RJ uses to increase his hype & get rid of rivals. And it could all be kept out of PJ’s consciousness. I would hope Lisbon or Cho would’ve sniffed out the incongruency (the 2 Janes) by now.

    JK, thanks for the J. Barrie backstory. Capt Hook is usually portrayed on the stage as fake-scary. Is that just so as not to frighten the kiddies in the audience?
    I would think Hook is more like Super Ego: imposed rules from the parental unit, inflexible & always threatening horrid consequenses.

    I think people like the story of Peter Pan so much, the naughty out-tricking the conventional, b/ c we have all experienced telling our Ids “this time it is critical: no more farting in the boss’ office, or being an hour late for family gatherings where they already say I am a screw up. No more eating the roommate’s entire bag of chips right before his buds come over for the big game. In PP, it would seem Wendy is the functioning Ego, trying to anticipate consequences, coax adaptive behaviors & all the rest,

    Lisbon seems as you remarked very similar in function in the CBI nest. She rolls her eyes whenever anyone compliments her on her willingness to sacrifice & go the extra mile, stating she “raised 3 brothers who were practically ferral”. There was an episode wrt her past, a time when the public called her “St Theresa” until doing the orthodox thing blew u in her face. Did that noteriety draw RJ’s attention so that he singled her out for his puppet show, along w/ PJ?

    I like PJ being The Mentalist better.

    • Enjoyed reading both of your comments.
      Freud’s tripartite division of the psyche Id, Ego and SuperEgo was a little later, originally the great man divided the psyche into Id and Ego. In Peter Pan there is no functioning SuperEgo as the children’s classic takes place in a world absent of parents(yes it begins with Wendy’s parents but they have both reneged on their parental duties enabling Peter to spirit them away to Neverland).
      If you see the story as being about Captain Hook, a new world of insight will open up to you.
      Xenophon the flashing red light appears in Dumar’s cabin, I don’t recall a camera shot in the pilot of a flashing red light on the camera.
      But prove me wrong. I love being wrong.

    • But on stage, the same actor plays Mr Darling AND Capt Hook. Because eventually the children are returned to the nursery & hardly recall PP when he comes to the window.

      I know we are getting off the topic a bit.

      The show feels a lot more fun, thinking I am watching neatly manicured representations of young,hopeful relationships (think “The 3 Muskateers”) where they have left the unsatisfactory past behind & have doubts about themselves & each other as they hit one barrier to feeling great about themselves after another. As far as who gets most angry when her need to feel good about herself is thwarted, that’d be Van Pelt. She despises it in others, having grown up around college FB coach Dad, seeing the jocks rise & fall over injudicious stuff.
      The 2nd neediest person, one who can make mistakes easily b/c the promise of finally being the cool guy is just so close to his heart would be Rigsby, but last I saw of him ( end of season 4) it sounded like he might be redefining his “Ego-Ideal”, who he wants to be, since he is so powerfully taken by fathering a son & comforting the son’s mom.

      Cho pretty much knows he is a bottomless pit for love & attention. When he dumped his pain meds right after trying to talk w/ TL, was it your impression that he was so ashamed of showing neediness that now he was breaking laws & was thinking about killing himself? Or was he dumping the narcotics in hopes that ex (?) hooker Summer would not relapse into drug abuse using his stuff? Either way. he has said all along to Rigsby that he wants to get out of police work, but knows he needs to be rich to make that work, like he understands business, pays attention to details & will be good in any line of work he chooses.

      TL probably feels pain when she thinks about wanting anything for herself, so she focuses on giving her all all the time, hoping virtue will eventually magically be rewarded.

      Do any of you remember Peter Falk & Alan Arkin in the first movie version of “The In-Laws”?
      Where Vince/ Falk is dodging bullets while hiding behind a taxi cab, explaining to the young cabbie w/ him, “The secret to the govt’s pension plan is staying alive long enough to use it.”

  21. But on stage, the same actor plays Mr Darling AND Capt Hook. Because eventually the children are returned to the nursery & hardly recall PP when he comes to the window.

    I know we are getting off the topic a bit.

    The show feels a lot more fun, thinking I am watching neatly manicured representations of young,hopeful relationships (think “The 3 Muskateers”) where they have left the unsatisfactory past behind & have doubts about themselves & each other as they hit one barrier to feeling great about themselves after another. As far as who gets most angry when her need to feel good about herself is thwarted, that’d be Van Pelt. She despises it in others, having grown up around college FB coach Dad, seeing the jocks rise & fall over injudicious stuff.
    The 2nd neediest person, one who can make mistakes easily b/c the promise of finally being the cool guy is just so close to his heart would be Rigsby, but last I saw of him ( end of season 4) it sounded like he might be redefining his “Ego-Ideal”, who he wants to be, since he is so powerfully taken by fathering a son & comforting the son’s mom.

    Cho pretty much knows he is a bottomless pit for love & attention. When he dumped his pain meds right after trying to talk w/ TL, was it your impression that he was so ashamed of showing neediness that now he was breaking laws & was thinking about killing himself? Or was he dumping the narcotics in hopes that ex (?) hooker Summer would not relapse into drug abuse using his stuff? Either way. he has said all along to Rigsby that he wants to get out of police work, but knows he needs to be rich to make that work, like he understands business, pays attention to details & will be good in any line of work he chooses.

    TL probably feels pain when she thinks about wanting anything for herself, so she focuses on giving her all all the time, hoping virtue will eventually magically be rewarded.

    Dio any of you remember Peter Falk & Alan Arkin in the first movie version of “The In-Laws”?
    Where Vince/ Falk is dodging bullets while hiding behind a taxi cab, explaining to the young cabbie w/ him, “The secret to the govt’s pension plan is staying alive long enough to use it.”

  22. Elsmitho,’ Hollywood convention ‘ is just a catch phrase for genre studies. For those who are reading this and are not too certain what genre studies is, a quick definition is that it’s the study of types of film and tv narratives, war, western, romance, cop procedural, scifi etc. There are elements common to all types of narratives. Writer are never free when they write, they are bound by these narrative rules and what we the audience expect.
    These days we mix genres The Mentalist for instance is a Detective show and a cop procedural but it draws upon other genres horror, slasher, soap opera etc
    We all watch a lot of TV and Film and learn unconsciously these genre rules. The genre rules for instance tell us who a good guy is, what kind of moral behaviour we ought to expect of him or her(the rules for women are alas different to men especially concerning sexual conduct). If we think about the crime shows and films we’ve seen we can actually list Red John suspects from the type of person or persons who usually do it in a whodunit.
    It’s a bit of fun.

  23. So, JK, the genre of Soap Opera writing:
    Does it REQUIRE the scant “mile wide, but only an inch thick” boring characters & it’s unbelievable story lines?

    In other words…. They turn out such poor writing ON PURPOSE?

    It seems big stars always blush when they have to admit that they “got their start on day-time TV”.

    • “Soap Opera; Importance of the cliffhanger ending, but note the absence of ‘closure’ .”
      I’m actually quoting wiki. Much better than my old text book.

  24. Xenophon, can you think of any other television detective with such a body count? Remember what I said about Narcissistic identification, we forgive and we explain away the crimes of Jane.
    Jane’s vengeance has a large body count, given that Red John only kills now to cover his crimes, to impress Jane or at the behest of Jane(Panzer).
    ” Do you know the cost of revenge ? ”
    Jane’s vengeance is narcissistic but in the Western genre it also makes him heroic.

  25. Remember that old Gilbert & Sullivan ditty about “Let the punishment fit the crime”?

    It appears social scientists & govt in general really hate encouraging individuals thinking about that kind of stuff any more. We are to let them tell us what is appropriate & mete it out.

    The result is an audience who can deeply identify w/ PJ. His wife & kid are killed. The govt. says it is its domain to catch the menace & make homes safe, as RJ already was a public threat, mot just to the Jane family.

    However, nothing of substance transpires from their efforts, PJ develops some clarity of thinking on the subject as time goes by & he decides that child torturers/killers are not only too dangerous to let keep assaulting kids & turning loved ones into emotional cripples like himself, but they are by their crimes all needing to be stopped immediately. And a jury backed him up on that. Panser was a child killer/ preditor. In Jane’s very reactive PTSD lexicon, that made him as bad as RJ (many would agree… the TV show does not let us know everything RJ is up to any more than it does all of Brett Stiles’ activities.

    PJ disposes of child killers the way cattlemen shoot cayotes & wolves. And much of the audience supports that. They may have been s*** on by broken political promises, money managers outright robbing them, victims of violence that can’t get justice…. PJ is a larger than life guy who holds people, including dullards in law enforcement accountable. It seems embittering but believable that there is actual corruption where there should be strength & virtue.

    Wrt the guy whose coffin he sat on all night to elicit a confession that he had deliberately played on the innocence & trust of the colleague he murdered to take all that was his. PJ sat around w/ the buried guy all night: a demonstration of concern for life. Your typical psychopath can’t care about that stuff, no matter how hard he tries to fake it. Everyone knew that type of confession was going to be thrown out in court, but the perp’s cover was blown.

    And…. The punishment fit the crime, so the segment of the audience troubled by disenfranchisement had something positive to feed into their frame of reference.

    The show has plenty of social commentary in it.

    I do not understand the tationale for blaming PJ for the former boss’ death @ the end of Season 4. There is a consistent message from the writers: if you are stupid, you die. It is stupid to call PJ “suck, stupid, ugly, crazy, or bad” as the saying goes.

    What I am seeing though, is that he, like a bloodhound, does not divert from his trail, when others want to dual it out w/ him.

    Do any of you remember “The Man from UNCLE”? It seems to me there was shooting every wk. . Also “The Lone Ranger”.

    • And another thing we know as well is that it won’t be Ellis Mars who was put in to play with the audience as a popular theory was that He is mars written some have supposed by a dying Renfrew(though it makes more sense for Red John to have written it)is actually some phonetic translation of the name Ellis Mars and that Red John is Brett Partridge due to the sound effect of the golf swing when the forensic officer was speaking about the crime and because Dexter, a serial killer in another show, is a forensics officer.
      One character was introduced to play with the audience and the other(believed universally to be Red John)would hardly be surprising or disappointing, just a damp squib.
      Red John will be two things, a character who has crawled beneath the radar and someone Jane has shook hands with. After the debacle of Tim Carter which nearly lead to the show being canceled, Bruno Heller will not be laying down anymore false trails and phoney clues.