‘Supernatural’ Season 7 ‘Hello, Cruel World’ Recap & Spoilers Discussion

Published 4 years ago by , Updated February 10th, 2012 at 12:24 pm,

supernatural season 7 hello cruel world 2 Supernatural Season 7 Hello, Cruel World Recap & Spoilers Discussion

Proving to be a running theme with the series, Friday’s episode of Supernatural, entitled “Hello, Cruel World,” picks up where the season 7 premiere left off. With the leviathan-riddled Castiel (Misha Collins) skin spouting off a few threats, they quickly made their way to the municipal water supply – and in an underwater explosion of blackness, the vessel of Castiel ceases to exist.

Using the town’s water supply as their own personal highway, the leviathan are taking over the bodies of those who come in contact with the tainted water: A creepy little girl becomes creepier, two high school swimmers take on The Shining twins (with their matching outfits), and a leader of sorts (though not the “boss”) emerges in the body of a demolition expert/car enthusiast.

Meanwhile, all Hell is breaking loose in Sam’s head – with a hallucination of Lucifer (Mark Pellegrino) taunting the wall-broken Winchester throughout the entirety of the episode. As the faux Lucifer seamlessly blends horrific imagery into Sam’s perception of the real world, the genius logic that Hell’s ringleader presents even has the viewer’s second guessing what’s real and what’s not.

A quick body-switch from a little girl to Dr. Sexy and the leviathan plans are slowly taking shape. After escaping from purgatory, the leviathan are hungry and want to eat. With the knowledge that surgeons can cut into humans anytime they wish, Dr. Sexy serves to be the best way for the leviathan to eat, without anyone catching on to their plans. Unfortunately, Dr. Sexy never planned on Bobby’s “favorite” law enforcer, Sheriff Mills, to be a patient in the hospital.

Mills is recovering from having her appendix removed, but that doesn’t stop her from following Dr. Sexy, as he carts off her elderly roommate and eats her liver. After being caught by a nurse and drugged by Dr. Sexy, Mills makes a dire call to Bobby (Bobby Singer) for help.

supernatural season 7 episode 2 hello cruel world 9 Supernatural Season 7 Hello, Cruel World Recap & Spoilers Discussion

With Sam’s hallucinations becoming ever more real, “Lucifer” takes on the form of Dean, and the two of them are on their way to take out the leviathan – thanks to “Dean” finding out exactly where they are residing. Pulling up to an office building of late-night workers (who are not the leviathan), Sam (Jared Padalecki) breaks down and starts shooting everything and anything around him.

Back at the hospital, Bobby looks over the body of Mills’ newly deceased roommate and comes face-to-face with Dr. Sexy. A shotgun blast to the gut and Dr. Sexy is no worse for wear: sans a few drips of black ooze, he walks away unscathed. Fortunately, Bobby was able to rescue Mills from the hospital, and the pair return to Bobby’s house.

Now that the real Dean (Jensen Ackles) has tracked down Sam in the midst of his mental freak-out, Dean attempts to show Sam that there’s a difference between the pain he’s feeling now and the real pain of being in hell. Using the cut that Sam got on his hand from the last episode, Dean presses it to show him what this pain feels like – and Lucifer’s figure starts to dissipate.

supernatural season 7 episode 2 hello cruel world 6 Supernatural Season 7 Hello, Cruel World Recap & Spoilers Discussion

As Dean and a newly calmed Sam return to Bobby’s house to go after Dr. Sexy at the hospital, they are shocked to find out Bobby’s house has been burned to the ground. With no signs of Bobby around, they assume the worse. Of course, the focus of those assumptions only last mere moments, as the pseudo leader of the leviathan appears – and a battle ensues.

The leviathan hits Sam over the head with a pipe and Dean gets thrown into a car. Both Winchester brothers are hurt, but Dean is still able to drop a suspended car on the leviathan, and black ooze pools around the body. Not being able to recover, Dean calls 911 and an ambulance is dispatched.

As the episode comes to an end, it’s revealed that the leviathan with a car on top of him has repaired himself and Sam and Dean are on their way to the hospital where Dr. Sexy works (along with two of his friends, unbeknownst to Sam and Dean). Unfortunately, there’s not much they can do, as the EMT injects both of them with sedatives.


Supernatural airs Fridays @9pm on The CW

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  1. I was not enchanted with this episode. It was a tiny bit boring to me. The Leviathans had better become more than one dimensional killer/eaters. Ho hum. SPN has come up with better bad guys than this. I was hoping to see a stronger Sam grown from his nasty experience. The angst is getting to be too much. Guess that’s why I love Dean. He hides it better, releases it, then moves on. And Cas, he and Dean had the best relationship. I guess Misha Collins is gone, and I will miss him, and Cas. Damn, not happy with how this season is looking to go.

    • Misha will be back.

      • If Misha will be back–will he be back as Cas…the real Cas?

        • There’s no word on that. But episode 9 is filming right now, and Misha hasn’t been on set since episode 2. *shrug*

  2. I too was a little disappointed with the leviathans/old ones portrayal. The fact they are everywhere and anywhere is quite frightening and has potential, yet they lack a unique kind of swagger. For all of Death’s warnings they should be somewhat more fearsome and nasty. Hopefully it will come with time.

  3. You guys are a little crazy to me. Already, this season is showing much greater promise for action, horror, and more importantly, drama than anything in all of last season. I could go into more detail, but I hate those people that do that in comment boxes. Suffice to say, just be patient. We have no idea what kind of threat the Leviathan will become. Especially not until this “Boss” shows up.

    • lmao. You hate people whom you don’t even know because they actually explain their opinions for things? That’s nice.

  4. This episode is also mostly bad. Even worse than the premiere. Here’s why:

    Good parts:
    - The performances were good, as per usual. Dean’s character annoyed me, but Jensen slightly redeemed it. And of course, Jared, Misha, and Jim are always awesome, like Jensen.
    - There’s some nice camera work in this, which I’ll get to (I’d like to at least end this on a positive note)
    - Although Sam’s storyline could have been executed much better, I do love seeing Lucifer. The actor who portrays that guy is brilliant.
    - And PARTS of Sam’s storyline (like the idea of the story and the climax when taken out of context- in context it feels rushed, which I’ll get to). It was nice as always seeing that Dean was able to ground Sam, and how their bond is even stronger (albeit unhealthy) then before. It was also great to see Dean talk about hell, because I don’t like how his return from hell was dealt with in season 4.
    The leviathans are thus far, well, mostly a garbage story, but the one thing I do like about them is that they will provide an interesting change in dynamics. The leads have said this before in interviews, in that this season, they’re going to be the ones who are hunted. Even though this change in dynamics was completely pulled out of their butts, shamelessly, it does have quite a bit of potential.
    A few little details; like when Sam woke up on the couch and heard Lucifer’s voice first, Dean taking Cas’s coat, etc.
    - … nothing else really. There were some mediocre parts, which I’ll get to.

    Bad parts (and general discussion, because I got carried away):
    Cas and the story line in general: That was the most pathetic character send off I have ever seen in ANYTHING. And not just because it was bad and anticlimactic, but because it was unnecessary in so many different ways. And I’ll explain why in a minute. I know that people are like, “Oohhh but Cas might come back, we didn’t actually see him die!”, yeah, I believe that he’ll come back too. Probably. But this is still the last we’ll see of him until probably, the second half of the season (considering how episode 9 is filming right now and Misha hasn’t been on set since episode 2), and this is the absolute worst way that his current arc could have ended. I cannot even FATHOM how that ended up making it into the final draft. This is why it was terrible: 1) I’ve mentioned this in so many other comments before that I won’t delve into it again, but just let me say, that the last several episodes of season 6 twisted around Cas’s character so much, and that the writers did everything they could to make Cas into a villain, while in the end they just made Cas look like a really mistreated character, themselves desperate and possibly moronic, and the Winchesters and Bobby as giant hyocrits. So… what was the point? Why did they make him out to be a villain so much if nothing he did as a villain mattered? The leviathans could have been released a dozen different ways, off the top of my head, but they had to go down the path as Cas as a villain because a) they don’t plan this stuff out, and pulled it out of their butts for the sake of having a climactic finale (which ended up being mostly bad in the end as well), and b) because They needed a storyline to coast through the last few episodes of season 6 and the first few of season 7, and this was the best they could come up with. Or at least, the one that the head writers decided upon. *sigh* There is absolutely NO REASON why they had to make Cas out to be this terrible person in season 6 since it ended up not mattering at all. 2) Not only does this episode make the unnecessary and out of character angst in season 6, but it also made the actions in the first season completely irrelevant. What happened to all the people that Cas killed? He became a mass murderer, a righteous one, which was 50% out of character (as I explained in my previous comment)… what was the point? Why bother twisting his characer MORE and making him do that stuff if it ended up not affecting anything? I’ll tell you why, because a) the writers needed to have some kind of story in the first episode that ended with the leviathans being released (which again, is what the head writer decided upon/what they thought was their best option *scoff*), so they forced Cas into becoming something he’s not, and THEN forcing him into a story of losing control (which was poorly developed, for reasons I mentioned in the other comment), so they could have some kind of conflict in the premiere. When in reality, that conflict for the most part made no sense at all. And b) because they have no respect for the character of Cas. Cas was originally just supposed to be in six episodes in season 4, but he was so popular that he’s been on the show since then. What annoyed me most about his sendoff is that they acted like his character never mattered, as if he was just a throw away like any other random person we see get devoured by monsters every other week. In every season, we always learn the effect that the events of the story have upon the world. In season 3, there’s an episode called “Sin City”, which is basically a story about how the world is going more and more to hell, specifically about how this one little town has become filled with lustful and greedy people. And that this has happened because hundreds of demons were let out at the end of season 2, and this town is just showing the effect that two demons caused. I guarantee you that all there mass murders are going to be swept under the carpet and never mentioned again. I guarantee you it will affect absolutely nothing. Because that’s what the show has been like since season 6 premiere; this show no longer takes place in the real world. It takes place in a parallel universe where nothing the story does matters (aside from the poisoned water in this episode, which I’ll get to). But I’m getting ahead of myself. This was a giant waste of potential, especially when you consider the cliffhanger of the premiere episode. And two seconds later, suddenly the vessel can’t take it anymore. Which doesn’t make any sense either. HOW was Cas able to hold millions of souls PLUS the leviathans, and not be able to handle just the leviathans? I’ll tell you why; because the writers needed to have some kind of twist ending to the premiere episode, even though the twist mean absolutely nothing. It was, once again, like most of this season and season six, the illusion of conflict. My point being for #2, is that his send off not only wasted all the crap they pulled in season 6 to get him here, but also the crap they pulled in the premiere. And finally, 3) The way he was sent off specifically here. I just… I can’t. HIs character walked into a lake and then just “died”. THE CREDITS WEREN’T EVEN DONE ROLLING YET, they were still going when he walked into the lake. Four minutes into the episode, and zip, he’s gone. Just like that. He was only mentioned twice in the episode. Once by Bobby at the lake, and the second time by Bobby ten minutes later at the house. And what’s WORST about this whole mess, is that it’s like the show forgot who this character is. This is a character who rebelled against millions of years of servitude in heaven, MULTIPLE times, fell for these three, and saved them from death and worse multiple times, even going so far to use the souls to stop Raphael from wasting all of their sacrifices by restarting the apocalypse (even though he should have used the weapons and not the souls– read: bad writing, and he’s just gone. He’s done more bad than good. He’s made mistakes, absolutely, but it always stemmed from his want to do whatever he could to protect these three and the world (ex. he SAVED THE WORLD twice, AND NO ONE CARES), and he’s just tossed aside like he’s garbage. All the show wants us to remember of him is that he’s a “stupid son of a b****”. And then they just walk away, just like that. This is just another example of how the writers have no idea how to write stories with beginnings, middles, and endings. They just have to start them randomly, beat around the bush, and then rush to the finish line with absolutely no explanation. Ex. The Soulless Sam storyline, the weapons storyline, the Alphas, Eve, and the Campbells. And those are just the main things. All story lines intended to create the illusion of conflict and fill up time, and then serve to lead into another storyline just like it. I suspect that season 7 will be both the same and different, which I’ll get to. I’m sort of leaking into other arguments. So I will just conclude it with this; the way the Godstiel storyline was concluded was the worst character send off I have ever seen, and shows signs that the writing will become increasingly disastrous. These characters cared about Castiel SO MUCH– and to underplay his death because the writers don’t understand how to write a story properly is just astounding. And as the cherry on top of my first point, I just want to say one more thing. Dean takes Cas’s trench coat with him, right? Well, according to the source that’s at the bottom of this comment, the writers didn’t mention what should happen to it. Then Guy Bee, the director of the episode, talked it over with Jensen, and Jensen said that Dean would keep it in the trunk of the Impala. That right there says how much the people in charge of the show care about the character of Cas. That’s how much they care about the character of their show. You know what I think? Cas will probably come back at some point, but I don’t think the writers know when. I think they’re throwing Cas’s fate up in the air. Just like they did with Balthazar and his uncertain fate, and how they brought Ellen and Jo back, and… I’ll get into this in my fourth major point, but basically, they don’t how how to write stories. That’s just. That is just mind boggling to me. They don’t care at all. They ended this story the way they did because they’re done with it. Because they don’t care. And it says how much Jensen does care. If you look at just the scripts of the past few episodes, you’ll see maybe two bits of possible examples showing that Dean cares about Cas. I think Jensen does such a great job elevating such bad material and making the matter not that Dean doesn’t care, but that he doesn’t want to show it. I’ll get more into that in my fourth point. Kudos to you, Jensen. Thanks for being so awesome.

    - Sam: Sam’s storyline was bother underplayed and overplayed. In the sense that it took up a lot of screen time but did very little with it until the end. One of my main concerns about Sam recovering from hell is that it’s not going to affect anything in the end. In season 4, Dean coming back from hell did affect one thing; it was a big, big part of the episode On the Head of a Pin (which was both an important main story episode, along with having big character moments for Sam, Dean, and Cas). But I don’t see that happening with Sam. We’ve already seen the effects of him going to hell; Dean having a normal life for a year (which was poorly handled, but I don’t want to delve into that now, because it’s not relevant), and… him not having a soul. And that just opens up a whole other closet of plot holes, but the point is, the wall breaking down is going to affect Sam and only Sam, and I guess Dean and Bobby a bit, but we all know that he’s going to recover EVENTUALLY. I’m rambling. Basically, Sam is going to continue to have these freak outs, but it’s not going to affect the main story at all. Actually, I bet you it won’t, because based on everything I’ve seen since season 6 started, stuff like this ends up never mattering. I want to be positive about this, but nothing is convincing me to do so. The part where the illusionary Dean walks in and takes Sam away in the car, I could see the twist that he’s not real coming from a mile away. This is partially due to the predictable, meandering storyline, and partially due to the camera work. Even though the camera work is nice, it just made the twist more obvious. Which I blame on the writing. When fake Dean came in, the camera was very shifty and almost felt hand held, which just contributed to the general feeling of unease, which I thought was nicely done. Even though the emotional climax was nice, it was… rushed. And this sort of goes back to what i said in the Cas explanation. Now that Sam will have an easier time telling what’s real and what’s not… what’s the point now? Are we just going to see Lucifer torturing Sam, endlessly, pointlessly, until the writers pull another rushed ending out of their butts? I don’t know how this is going to end, but I’ll say this about what we know so far. A big part of Sam’s storyline this season thus far was him confusing reality with illusions, right? Well, that ended here. From here on out, any attempt on the writers to make Sam confused is just going to drastically undercut the emotional climax here with Dean. So again, where is this storyline to go? Is Lucifer going to show Sam his dark past of the year and a half he went soulless? What the crap is the POINT in that?! It’s so infuriating! That wasn’t Sam! That was Sam’s meatsuit! I’ll get to this in my fourth point, but all of these story lines are becoming incredibly redundant. Sam suffered from the feeling of being different, and from hating the darkness in himself, for the first five seasons. And it was handled beautifully. What in the WORLD is the point of going back to that?! This show is just covering the same ground over and over, and regressing the character further and further, which is something else I’ll get to.

    The leviathans: Before I go into the redundancy of this premiere, and of the series I wanted to talk about the leviathans, and the procedural story of this episode. Which will lead me into my fourth point. The procedural story, with the hospital and the random people… is fine. It’s not bad in anyway, and was actually quite creepy. But it wasn’t anything special either, and at this point it just felt kind of tired. I have a bad feeling the show is going to go back to that formula again. Like I said at the top, this changes the dynamics of the season in an interesting way. Because now, nowhere is safe. Bobby’s house is gone and they’re on the run. And the Leviathans have infected most of the population, and have set up command in hospitals so they’ll be able to eat. I just… yes, this is a somewhat interesting change and whatever… but I just can’t help thinking, how did the writers come to this conclusion? And more importantly, where is this going? So far, these leviathans have absolutely nothing unique about themselves, aside from somehow being able to infect the water (which honestly feels more like a lame attempt to change the dynamics of the season then something that makes sense). When Sam and Dean eventually end this storyline, what’s going to happen. Is there going to be a giant memory wipe? It would actually be really interesting if everyone remembered, because the world knowing about hunters might really change the dynamics up in season 8 (since there will probably be one). I’m just spitballing there though. But whenever people are possessed, either by angels, demons, or other creatures, they have ALWAYS remembered what happened them, even if its in bits and pieces. And once the water infects millions of people, how is that going to end? I bet that the writers are also going to end that storyline poorly. But getting back to what i said earlier, my opinion on the leviathans as enemies are really mixed. I think there are a few parts to this. 1) One of the problems with this storyline is that the leviathans feel no different from the collective threat of the demons being released at the end of season 2. The only differences being 1) for some reason, they need to eat flesh, even though they went without flesh in purgatory for millions of years (which is an issue of how you want to define metaphysics). And 2) they mostly work together. Because they need the flesh to survive. From the looks of it, these things only work with each other for the sake of survival. But we’ll learn more as the season progresses. And another thing; why in the WORLD do the leviathans need to eat flesh even though they were the first things that God ever created? They didn’t need flesh then. Why now? I’m getting ahead of myself again. This sort of leads me into my next point. 2) How the leviathans don’t really fit into the context of the show’s mythology. In the bible, these beasts were supposed to slayed by the arch angel Gabriel during revelations. Correct me if I’m wrong on that. Or it could be done by any other arch angel, I suppose. But… why? One of the things about Supernatural is that it takes material from the bible but has it make sense in context. Angels haven’t performed miracle because they’re mindless servants and stayed in heaven, as ordered. Demons were once people. All the prophets are actually incarnated. Cupids are manipulated for the sake of creating vessels the angels can use. Great. All that stuff is great. Where do the leviathans come in? They weren’t brought up during season 5, when they were supposed to be destroyed (before there could truly be paradise on earth), so why now? God sealed them away for a reason, right? Why seal them away for no reason, when he could just destroy them completely. Actually I’m going to talk about that for a minute. Since the series has always made the stuff in the bible make sense in realistic context, God was written as a deadbeat dad, basically. An absent father, someone who participates when absolutely necessary. But back then, he was an active god, getting busy with everything. If he sealed away the leviathans during that time when he was active, why didn’t he just kill them? And if you ignore that issue, why seal them away if he wasn’t even going to order the angels to kill them later in season 5? If they weren’t killed because, say, the angels were too busy taking care of other stuff, why didn’t God just kill them himself? What was he thinking, “Oh, why don’t I just leave that giant Pandora’s box for someone to eventually discover and eventually destroy the entire planet! Oh, such fun.”? And even if it doesn’t make sense in the context of season 5, it MIGHT have made context in the story of season 6. One of the things I like about season 6 are these few little bits in the second half of the season about free will. In the episode with Fate, she talked about how ever since Cas and his friends ruined the ending of the apocalypse, she and the others have been in complete chaos, trying to make sense out of something that was supposed to end. And in the beginning of the Cas centric episode, he talked about how he and the other three averted the apocalypse, ending destiny, and bringing about free will. This is something that should have been THE MAIN FOCUS of season 6, but that’s not what I want to talk about. If season 6 was about free will, and all these loose ends that were supposed to be tied up, why not mention the leviathans then? Why not go more into some of the after effects of the apocalypse? This is a major fault in season 6 that has been exposed thanks to these two season 7 episodes. If we had heard of these guys before, if this was somehow built up to, and, well, PLANNED OUT FOR ONCE, this might have made sense for the show. But it doesn’t. There is absolutely no reason why the leviathans are being brought up NOW of all times. It’s just an excuse for the writers to 1) pull more big baddies out of the nearest plot device they can find, aka Castiel, and 2) to change the dynamics so that there will be more stories for the show, even if these stories are a) regressive, b) not organic at all, and c) pointless. In every season, the evolution of the show has always felt natural and been amazing to watch. This… is not. This leads me to #3, which will also lead me into my fourth major point of what was bad about this episode, how the mythology has become convoluted, because the writers keep treading the same ground, both for the stories and characters. 3) Exactly that. How is the story of the leviathans going to make way for anything new? And before you say anything, let me say a few disclaimers. But wait, isn’t that contradictory to say? You said that the leviathans have brought about a change in dynamics, so why contradict yourself? Well, I’m not really contradicting myself. YES, this season is going to switch up the hunter vs. hunted dynamic, but ultimately, based on what we’ve seen, it’s not going to bring anything new to the series. I’ll get more into this specifically in my fourth point. But as far as just the leviathans go, it reminds me of season six. In every season, each story has always built upon the other. The mythology and scope got bigger and bigger. I mean, in season 1 when demons were rarely mentioned, it was always really dark and scary. Compare that to seasons 4 and 5 when demons are mentioned almost every other sentence. I’ not criticizing those seasons, I’m just saying that mythology grew. The biggest problem I have with the mythology supplements of seasons six and seven are, well, just that; they’re supplements. They’re not expanding the mythology. They’re just making stuff that we already knew before very convoluted, like I said earlier in this paragraph. This stuff isn’t new, it’s background information. A lot of the criticism for season 6 came from the idea that, “Where was the series supposed to go? You can’t get any bigger than the apocalypse and the devil”, which I partially disagree with. Since the first five seasons of the show was a planned out arc, that makes sense. Seasons 6-8 should have been planned out as well. It makes since especially when you look at how the first two seasons of the show, while awesome, are just a lot of setup for the later seasons. In an ideal world, since 6-8 already has five seasons of set up to work from, well, it’s perfect. Three seasons. A beginning, a middle, and an end. Oh, and when I say through season 8, I mean because the two leads are contracted through season 8, and because the CW is going to milk out this show as much as it can. So season 8 is pretty much guaranteed. And since this is so, why wasn’t anything planned out? I go much more in depth about this in my other comments on the other Supernatural articles, but, most of season 6 is pointless. It doesn’t matter. You could argue that the first season in this way as well, but again, you’re getting that the first was the first, and that the sixth has five seasons to build from. Since 6-8 would likely be the last major arc of the series, the second major one, why wasn’t this planned out?! I’m sort of leaking over into my fourth point, so let me bring it back to the leviathans. This. Was. Not. Planned. Out. AND IT SHOWS. These leviathans show to be no different from the other enemies we’ve faced. The only two differences being what I mentioned before. and the only significant of those changes being that it changes the story dynamics (which again, is just another way to pull out new stories out of their butts). Yes, the season has barely started, but I guarantee you that there will be very little that’s different about them from the other threats the characters have faced. The next part of this point was originally going to be part of this paragraph, but I think I’m going to make it part of my fourth point. Concluding what I’ve said about the leviathans; they will bring nothing new to the series besides an unnatural change in dynamics.

    This fourth point is the absolute biggest problem with the show post season 5. *sigh* I’ve talked about it before in my other comments, especially in regards to how this flaw shows in Dean’s character development. But this problem affects EVERYTHING here. It’s the biggest reason why this show and these characters can’t move forward. The problem is this. Almost everything about the way this show is written, is redundant. Everything. Pretty much every single thing that has happened since season 5 ended has added very little to anything. This series keeps recycling the same stories, themes, and character arcs. And not even for the sense of growth, but because this show is afraid to evolve. And I know that the reviewer of this series has said that the show has evolved, albeit with a few bumps along the way (understatement of the millennium there), but I disagree. The only evolution this show has shown is the illusion of conflict, the butt pulling of “new material”. It’s something I talked about in my third point. Yes, the dynamics of this season are going to be different. But ultimately, those dynamics are going to be used, and were used in season 6, to only retread the same ground over and over again. This show is starting to remind me a lot of the middle seasons of Smallville. And before you go “Omg but Smallville is terrible how dare you!”, let me explain. And for the sake of comparison, let’s talk not about the quality of the show, since people of course are bound to not have seen or dislike Smallville, let’s talk about how the series has changed. Supernatural is afraid to evolve in a positive way. I think that years after this show has ended, more people are going to look back and see that as well. Think about it. After season 5, Smallville began to retread the same character stuff for two seasons straight. Seasons six and seven. And this show was originally supposed to last five seasons. Sound familiar? Seasons six and seven brought about different dynamics, which lead to different stories and different villains, but in the end, for the most part, it didn’t add to the show at all. It just regressed everything. The characters, the story, the tone, etc. It wasn’t until season 8 that the show made one of the biggest comebacks in TV history, albeit with “a few bumps along the way”. But it had to learn from the mistakes of the last two seasons before it could do that. And it’s not just Smallville that you could compare this flaw too, you could compare it to any show that’s past it’s prime and starts to recycle the same stuff. But there is a big difference between most of those shows, Supernatural, and Smallville; IT DOESN’T HAVE TO BE LIKE THIS. Smallville always had a lot of potential, and after making those mistakes, rose to seize it in season 8. It’s different for other shows, like say, The Office. That show takes place in just that building and around the workplace comedy scenario, and they’ve been going for eight years. But a lot of people think the show is past it’s prime. Maybe, maybe not. But the concept IS extremely limited. And speaking as a former fan, the show has waned. Or say, Scrubs season 9, and how that tried to start a second generation of people and stories for the show, but just ended up mostly retreading ground and reusing characters. All these shows are limited because they take place centered around the lives of ordinary people in an ordinary world; SMALLVILLE AND SUPERNATURAL DON’T. Supernatural could have taken a dozen different routes, they could have planned it out. They could evolve these character in ways different from the first five seasons. But the show isn’t doing that. Smallville suffered from this problem for two years. But once the show evolved the characters and story to a point where they couldn’t go back, the show was good again. Supernatural, again, is. Not. Doing. This. And the biggest part of them problem stems from the two leads themselves; the relationship between Sam and Dean. I’ve talked about this before as well, but now I can talk about it in the context of this episode, because this episode is thus far the perfect example of why this show is waning. In fact, you could say that most, if not all, of the problems with this show after season 5 stem from these two. The show claims to be just about two brothers. But by limiting the show to just those two, it’s not allowing for the show to try anything new. Yes, the show should ALWAYS be told from the PERSPECTIVE of the two brothers, but it should be allowed to evolve. The synopsis of season 7 says that the brothers will be hunted, and will have no one to rely on but each other. What I’m about to say I cannot stress enough, because it is the absolute core problem with this show, that everything else stems from; BY MAKING THEM PSYCHOLOGICALLY DEPENDENT ON EACH OTHER, YOU ARE NOT ONLY REGRESSING THEIR CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT FROM THE FIRST FIVE SEASONS, BUT YOU ARE REGRESSING ANY POTENTIAL THAT THIS SHOW HAS. Their relationship has become poisonous and unhealthy. It used to be that these brothers chose to be with each other. Heck, in season 5, they took a break from each other for two episodes. And that was EXACTLY what the characters needed then. They needed room to breathe and time to grow. Those two stuck with each other because they were stronger together. That’s not the case anymore. They’re becoming weaker due to their relationship. If they didn’t have each other, they wouldn’t be able to function. How are the characters growing from this? I covered how this shows in season 6, so I’m not going to write as much about it, but let’s just look at a few things. How are Sam and Dean growing from this? They aren’t growing from this. Everyone they love dies, everything always goes to hell. But in the first five seasons they always pushed away and came back to each other. Here that isn’t the case. Here they’re clinging to each other. Dean mentions committing suicide. Sam almost does the same thing. In season 1, Dean was a kid, with no home, no friends, and a broken family. How did season 6 change that? How did this episode change that? They keep reverting to the old, kill everyone off and have Dean and Sam be sad over it. Everyone on this show dies! Everyone! And I understand that this is a constant war, a constant struggle, but EVERYONE DIES. And it’s not fair, because these four, Dean especially, have died SO MANY times, but no one else can come back. Every character is killed just when they meet a character milestone. Ellen and Jo see eye to eye, they die. Gabriel fights against his family, he dies. Bella becomes a fully rounded character, she dies. Cas becomes a person with full understanding of free will, he “dies”. And sometimes that works, sometimes sacrifice works. But now it’s just really lazy writing, because it happens, all. The. TIME. These characters aren’t allowed to grow beyond each other because there isn’t anyone else to reveal different sides and layers of them. Sam and Dean have gone through everything together. Pulling different dynamics out of your butt isn’t going to change that. What these two characters have gone through since season 5 ended has added NOTHING to their relationship. It’s retreading the same ground over again. Oh they lied to each other? Here’s a scene of brotherly angst. Oh Sam has a dark side? Oh, here’s some more brotherly angst. The show hasn’t grown because these two don’t grow outside of each other. The series is recycling ideas because the characters are doing the same thing. Same thing with Sam; for the first five seasons we learned that he always felt different, and that he had a dark side. And his story was always handled beautifully. What’s the point of having another storyline of darkness for him? This is another storyline repeating itself! Him remembering hell is not going to make his character, it’s only going to regress his character back to what he was like in early season 5, when he deeply hated himself for what he did. What’s the difference?! How is he growing?! He’s not! Here’s an idea; why don’t you make Dean the dark one and Sam the light one? Why not juxtapose their positions for the second story arc of the series? That would bring about a lot of new possibilities for material. Why does the show keep returning to the same stories over and over again?! Why do characters have to die just as they start to reveal things about the leads?! I’ll tell you why. Because this show is afraid to grow up. And when you look at what this episode means in this episode, there are a few key points. 1) How Cas is completely forgotten about for the rest of the episode after the first four minutes. Cas is part of their family. He’s been family for years. He really is the fourth Winchester, right after Bobby. The fact that we didn’t even get to see them grieve is just astoundingly bad. And I bet you that we won’t see them even mention him once. 2) Dean mentions suicide, as does Sam, and Bobby’s house blows up. These boys are being tested in a way that is making them regress. It’s one thing to make characters suffer, but when the characters do nothing but suffer, the show loses its meaning. The show is angst for the sake of angst. And it’s just exhausting talking about these points over and over, because it’s just so BAD. And it might be veiled under the illusion that it’s bringing something new to the table, but it’s not. Sam almost killed himself. Dean is the only thing that brought him back. And you know, out of context, that’s a nice testament to their relationship. But when you put it in context with everything that’s happened, it just showed how broken these brothers are, and how the show is simply hurting them for the sake of hurting them. Not because it reveals anything new about them, or challenges them, but because the show is constantly kicking them down and shoving their face in the mud. It’s not good TV. Anyone can make characters suffer from pointless story lines. The hard thing is when you have characters grow in a positive way, naturally, from these bad experiences. And again; HOW ARE THEY CHANGING? They’re regressing back to what they were like in the earlier seasons, and they’re not even doing it well! The show is probably going to fall back into the old monster of the week formula, just like what happened here. *sigh* I’m tired of talking about this point. But I think that shows just how tired the show is. I’m tired of talking about this point because the point itself is tiring. It’s tiring the show. It’s tiring the characters, the story, the tone; everything about it.

    That’s why I think this episode is bad. And why the show is getting worse and worse.


    • Oh and also… the scene where Sam is having a mental breakdown and Bobby walks in is so… stupid! I could not believe what I was watching! Sam was yelling at an imaginary devil, and Bobby’s like, “Are you alrriiiiiiggghhht?”, and then Sam doesn’t answer him because he’s hallucinating more, and it doesn’t even phase Bobby! That was sooo poorly done! And then Bobby just leaves, assuming Sam will be fine, when he just saw the 110% opposite of that! Wtf! It was an excuse to get Sam alone so he could leave and go have his emotional climax. This is what I’m talking about when it comes to piss poor writing.

      • Wow I agree totally with all you said.

        I honestly believe there are cliffhangers (and may end up being all season) to keep people watching viewing figures are falling, and the writers can’t seem to understand that when you have a very cult fan driven show, keep the fans happy, me and my friends had such a buzz after ep1 because misha as a baddie was about the best solution to the no cass problem we could hope for, that lasted 4 mins and I mostly forwarded though the rest of the ep after, sam crying and cracking up has never been a good story line. And why run promos with castiel all summer if he is only in 1 ep, massive way to upset his fans.
        Dean and sam need friends outside of each other, castiel made Dean more human, more understanding. Dean in season 6 was down right cruel to castlel, you can even see Misha flinch at some of deans comments when you see him at conventions and they are repeated to him. Eric in true blood would be proud of the nasty comments he makes. Thats not how you treat a brother, I felt season 6 Dean was badly written.

        I don’t understand the writers lack of interest in telling us what the score is with castiel, is he dead or not? I doubt it will keep people watching on the off chance, will just check imbd to see what misha is up to rather than watching sam and this weeks issue, you know the writers should just give sam a spin off of him in counselling and have done with it

      • BlueHeroBH seriously dude why go indepth into it. Its a show some people like it some people dont, i personally loved the episode. And i hate people who knit pick every little detail. So just give it up

        • *sigh* Are you actually serious? You have got to be kidding me. “The guy who’s not a nerd”?

          Hey, the guy whos not a nerd! Why go to this website looking for a review? It’s just a website, some articles are reviews and others aren’t. I personally go her because I enjoy creating discussions and reading about film and movie news.

          Hey, the guy whos not a nerd!, why go read this article? It’s a review, some people agree with it and some people dont, i personally disagree with the Supernatural reviews on this site. And i hate it when people tell others not to share their opinion.

          Hey, the guy whos not a nerd!, why reply to my comment? It’s just a comment, some people agree with it and some people don’t, i personally think my comment is well thought out. And i hate it when people act like arrogant douches and don’t contribute to the discussion.

          Mother of god, seriously. The stupidity of that comment is just astounding. I don’t know you personally, but whether you intended to do so or not, that came off as really stupid. Are you listening to yourself? Because 1) you just insulted me personally when you don’t even know me, 2) you basically said that discussions about any show beyond shallow entertainment value are pointless because “its a show some people like it and some people dont”, and 3) you said that you love the episode, right after you bashed my pointless “in depth” opinion, and told me to “just give it up”, and you did ALL OF THIS when you came TO THIS recap/review ON THIS site, VOLUNTARILY, SEARCHED THROUGH the comments, didn’t say ANYTHING like this to the comments you happen to agree with, and then somehow, you found the nerve to say this to the largest comment that disagreed with your opinion.

          I started that discussion because I enjoy talking about TV shows in depth, I find the study of storytelling in television a fascinating thing to discuss, with pretty much any show. I am discussing this because I am sharing my opinion with everyone else. The point in sharing my opinion is to both agree and disagree with other people here, and so that maybe someone might contribute back to the discussion, like Ellie did just before, and we can enjoy talking about it. How is that any different from talking about ANYTHING ELSE in depth? What about when someone tells you a funny story, or a dramatic story about something that’s affecting them? It all comes down to thinking of ideas, interpreting ideas and communicating with people about those ideas. Isn’t that the point of storytelling in television? Supernatural isn’t shallow entertainment, it used to be a show with very deep meaning. So, no, my comment isn’t pointless.

          I am also commenting on this article “in depth” because I am tired of the writers getting away with such LARGE flaws in their stories, and then having some people just totally eat it up and saying they love it. And I’m not saying that everyone who loves the recent stuff from Supernatural is stupid, what I’m saying is that the majority of those opinions I have seen are either 1) totally baseless and not thought out, 2) come from blind passion, and often times these people tell people who analyze the show, like me, to shut up because I shouldn’t pointlessly “nit pick” it. Oh my, that sounds an awful lot like someone who replied to my comment here. On this site, this is at least the third comment I have received that is like that. I want the writing on this show to be better because I love the first five seasons, and I want people to notice and point out the big flaws with the recent stuff. It’s so frustrating to watch this once great show get away with such bad writing and have people praise them. This show is known for listening to the fans, more than most other shows, and I’m hoping that they can see where they’ve gone wrong and fix their mistakes. Although from the looks of things, the writers aren’t completely butchering everything this show used to be and are NOT listening to constructive criticism.

          You hate people who nitpick every little detail? Man, if you judge people like that, I honestly feel sorry for you. Not to mention it sounds like you didn’t even read my comment, because 50% is the obvious, surface level material that is wrong with the episode. It sounds more like you skimmed it after seeing I disagree and then decided to tell me to just “give it up”.

          Here’s an idea; instead of making a pointless comment that insults the previous commentator, declaring your opinion, and then teling them to just “give it up”, why not actually contribute to the discussion and actually say why you disagree? *sigh* And if you can’t do that, then the least you can do is refrain from making comments like that at all. Seriously man. Just, don’t.

          • Lets ignore him and talk about him, I posted more feelings in detail a little while ago :-)

    • Thank you. You have summarized my feeling more eloquently than I ever could.

    • I agree with everything you have said, a few issues bother me

      1) cliffhangers scream as a desperate move to keep people watching, worked very well for True blood which needed something special with a world flooded with vampire/human love shows, it doesnt work with SN which has a loyal captive audience already, the treatment of the fans is why people are turning off

      2) Not sure the writers have any real connection with the fans at the moment, bring Jo back, and I gather she and Dean will kiss, she was disliked from the get go, cant see how this will make the fans happy, and I dont care if it spoils the plot, but just say yes Misha will be back this season/no Castiel is dead and thats it, by saying Misha will be back wont overly give any spoilers away he could be any of about 6 characters he has played on the show so far and means the fans are kept happy. To me it seems really harsh drop him as a regular and then use him for a lot of the interviews, conventions etc to build up publicity

      3)Dean was just horrid to Castiel all the way through season 6, calling him a child, a baby in a trench coat, and just being cruel like a nasty bully, I was a dean girl from day 1 of the show, Jensen was the reason I watched the show to be honest, its not my normal cup of tea, and yet I started to go off Dean in season 6, why is he always right, everything felt wrong with him, like he was Pushing Castiel away from him to make their split easier, Im sorry but is this a backlash against the slash fans? Cos they dont have a romantic relationship, they have a close friendship, 2 people who have lost a lot and dont really know what they believe in any more, learning how to trust again and use each other for support, and the writing in season 6 was horrible for dean, just felt so wrong.

      4) Crowley, dont get me wrong, I love him as much as the next SN fan, but it seems a bit wrong that Castiel cant work with him but the brothers can, did we just forget last seasons out rage of “you are working with Crowley, Crowley” and no dont make him the next Hunters little helper, he is not the new Castiel

      5) Sam just needs a nice spin off show “sam sees a shrink” cos thats the way its going, and please get rid of lucifer asap before sam starts calling him harvey and dressing him in silly outfits (see farscape for how totally horrid this story line will go)

      6) Bobby needs to die if castiel is dead, as the writers said its a show about the 2 brothers, well if we dont get Castiel why should bobby stay? hes not a brother and unlike Misha is confirmed for a lot of other eps

      wow good to get that off my chest

      • Sorry about my delay, I only had time to reply back to one comment at the time. So I’ll reply to both of your comments here.

        First comment:
        1) Cas as the baddy- Yeah, I think that Cas as the villain had a lot of potential, even though the build up to it is riddled with plot holes and out of characters actions. I don’t even like him in the first episode, honestly, but that’s just me. I made a comment on the first episode review on this site explaining why.
        The cliffhangers- The cliffhanger in the first episode is deeply insulting. What I find most pathetic about the cliffhanger is that Cas had absolutely no problem holding the millions of souls PLUS the leviathans, so why did he suddenly have trouble with just the leviathans? They just wanted to make a cliffhanger to have some sort of climax to it because they can’t write.
        2) Friends- Yeah absolutely, perhaps the biggest reason why this show is regressing is because the two of them have no friends besides Bobby, so the same stories are being told over and over again. I’ll give an example when I reply to your second comment.
        Dean’s character- Oh lord, YES, I absolutely hate the way his character was developed in season 6. His character is regressing back to the 2014 Dean we saw in the future. His Lisa and Ben arc is pointless. I’ll get to how he treated Cas in the second comment reply.
        3) Cas dead? – I knowwww right? Honestly, I think the biggest reason why they’re not saying anything is because they plan on Cas coming back but they don’t know when or why. They might just be keeping him in their pocket to bring out in some last ditch attempt to raise the ratings (which are quite low, lower than before). So basically they’re probably not planning out this season. Surpriiiise. *sarcasm*

        Second comment:
        1) Yeah, the cliffhangers are pathetic. Cliffhangers on HBO and especially True Blood work, because True Blood operates in a sort of cheesy surrealistic, southern sort of atmosphere, and the cliffhangers, the random screaming, and the gore are part of that.
        2) Jo- Well… I don’t really care about whether or not it satisfied the fan base, I care about the writers telling the best story they can. But they’re not doing that. And they should listen to the fan base when it comes to important stuff, not shipper stuff (I’m not sure if that’s what you were implying). I personally love Jo, I always have, but I did hate the forced romance between her and Dean, because she had always been a little sister figure to him, and him trying to sleep with her was just… pathetic. Bad.
        3) Cas and the publicity- The treatment of the fans, especially of Cas fans, has been really bad. The CW did everything they could to try to get fans to watch this season, overly promoting Cas being in the first two episodes (even though he was gone four minutes into the second episode) as if he would be a big part of the season. And then they gave him the worst character send off, death or not, I’ve ever seen. It’s really insulting.
        4) Dean and Cas- I agree, Dean treated Cas horribly season 6. I think you’re right, that the writers were pushing them apart because of the shippers. Maybe. Honestly, I’m actually a Destiel fan myself, I think the bond between them is stronger than just good friends. But that’s just how I view things. And I’m a guy, so I don’t think that because it’s ~hot or for any stereotypical fan girl reasons. It doesn’t affect my opinion that season 6 is bad, for many reasons outside of Dean and Cas. The way those two were written for most of the season was just bad. I think one of the only times that I really like how they interacted was in the Cas centric episode. *shrugs*
        5) Cas and Crowley- I love Crowley too. And believe me, in my other comments, I went very in depth about how hypocritical the Winchesters are for casting Cas out. That was really piss poor writing and I can’t believe most people actually ate that crap up.
        6) The reason why Bobby hasn’t been killed off is because he’s a crucial plot device. That’s the only reason. Cas was sort of a plot device too at times, but now that the storyline is moving away from heaven and hell, his services are no longer needed, because the story is operating in a different universe. But Bobby will always be someone the writers can use to move their crappy stories along when the boys can’t, for whatever reason. Don’t get me wrong, Bobby is my favorite character (next to Cas), but he’s a total plot device, one that the writers don’t want to lose.
        7) Sam- Yeah I agree, his storyline isn’t interesting. It’s pointless and will lead absolutely nowhere, it will just fill up screen time. And you know what’s most annoying about it? How we’ve seen this story before! For the first five seasons, Sam always suffered from being different/the dark side in himself, and Dean was always trying to help him, and Dean would angst over the times that he couldn’t. That’s exactly what happened with Soulless Sam! And that’s exactly what’s going to happen here! Bad, bad, bad writing.

        • No dont be feel bad in the delay to reply, Im delighted I got a reply :-)

          Sera has confirmed Castiel is dead, but wants Misha back in some form, not sure how that will work as she said Castiel is dead cos his vessel is gone, to me thats Jimmy is dead, castiel could be alive.

          Im so annoyed by this all that makes very little sense to me, how can Misha (who I love BTW) be back if his body is gone, Ghosts, dreams etc are all lame, and thats the lamest exit i have ever seen for a main character, the fact that the writer has to come out and tell us cos no one is sure must suggest something is amiss

          Destiel (wow thats the first time I ever typed that) works because of Misha I think, hes the most flexible of the actors on the show, and the only one whose real life personality isnt the same as his character, which is why he appeals to the fans in a lot of ways, Part of me wants him to get signed up for a new show and not able to come back when SN want him, I do think they treated him pretty badly, bringing it back to the brothers only, means they are locked in the obsessive possessive homoerotic relationship that the 1st 3 seasons provided, until season 4 when the brothers each got a new friend

          The whole Castiel and the leviathans thing, I think with all the souls he could hold them back due to the extra power in him, when it was just him he couldnt fight it, if thats the case it wasnt very clear, and the 3 seconds we got of him being normal was too short, felt rushed. Massive mistake not using him as the baddie, whats more scarey than their best friend who knows them so well hunting them, who has been in deans dreams, and the inner trauma of Castiel trying to fight them to save his friends would have been good, ok a bit Sam esq but I think it would work, Crazy old creatures and a slightly depressed angel would be a good fight.

          Im still very bothered by Bobby still being around it goes against the writers justification for getting rid of Castiel, it cant be one rule for one and one for another, no matter what he does for the plot, they need to kill them both off.

          I am very interested in how low the ratings need to be before the writers panic

          • Well she didn’t say that EXACTLY, she said that to Dean, Sam, and Bobby, he’s dead. They think he’s dead. She never said he’s 100% dead in an omniscient sense, she worded her way around that. Whenever producers/managers or whatever say “we’d love to work with them again”, a lot of the time, it’s just a courtesy. I wouldn’t want Cas in a different vessel though. *shrug* Misha was born to play Cas.

            Yeah they left his death open ended on purpose. In the same way they left Balthazar’s death open ended on purpose as well (notice how there were no wing burns on the ground? Same with Cas).

            I think Destiel works on pretty much every well, but I don’t want to get into a shipper sort of discussion, I can’t imagine other people would want to talk about it. And I didn’t really intend to bring it up more lol. A lot of the time passionate fans of the show, their opinions get dismissed just because they believe in a certain couple, and I’d rather not go down that route.

            And yeah, Cas appeals to people for many reasons. I know fans that have said they love Cas, because they have a hard time relating to people, and that they’re “a cold, heartless asshole” (as one fan really did say), but that they care for Cas more than most fictional characters, because he learned to feel human emotions.

            And oh my god, the relationship between Sam and Dean is just incredibly irritating now. I love them both, but watching the same stories repeat over and over again is exhausting.

            Yeah you’re right, I hadn’t thought about that. I guess the souls did give him more strength, maybe… but yeah, that’s definitely a really loose explanation, and I don’t entirely buy it. It just felt like a way to have some exciting cliffhanger. And I agree, it was a mistake not to have Cas as a villain, or at least keep him around in the show. I know some people think he’s lived out his purpose, and to that I say, piss off, because he was the only reason the world didn’t end in season 6. But I can also understand that people are tired of the heaven and hell storyline (even though it elevated the series to a new level, in my opinion), so I don’t see why Cas couldn’t have just fallen and become a human for his crimes, if he didn’t become a bad guy. *sigh*

            You know what I find amazing about them killing everyone but those three off? The head writer said that they don’t want to be redundant with their stories. UMMM. EXCUSE ME BUT ALMOST EVERYTHING YOU’VE DONE IN SEASONS 6 AND 7 HAS BEEN POINTLESS AND REDUNDANT. And now we’re back to the “Sam and Dean only have each other” crap, and I’m like, how is THIS NOT redundant? asdfkjl;

            I think that the ratings dropped at least 14% from the premiere episode, which is a lot. And that’s at least, it’s probably more. I’m curious to see how low they are this Friday.

            • level* not well, lol

            • She did say she was talking to Misha and had plans for him

              There is a big warning bell in my head going off every time I see Crowleys name, as if he is their new BFF and taking Castiel’s place, I honestly cant see how that would work

              I would have just depowered Castiel like season 5, so he cant fix them or do that much for them but hes not totally human, but learning how to deal with being stuck on earth and developed his relationship with Sam at the end of season 5 he was much warmer to Sam than at any other time, and spoke to him in a softer manner like he always does with dean, its a good learning process for them all. One think I loved about Castiel was how he reacted with people when the boys were not around, hes more mencing and forceful, but always submissive to the boys, that was very interesting

              I have been looking at figures normally there is a 1mil drop from the 1st ep to the final episode of each season, slightly lower last season think it was .7mil so that leaves Sn at 1.3 mil viewers and it drops from season to season (other than season 4 when it picked up)

              I liked the angel story line was bored of Sammy/Dean offering to die for each other, it was getting daft only so many times you can sell your soul

              • Well again, that could just be a courtesy thing. “We have plans”, “we’re leaving the door open”, and phrases like that are sign for, “yeah, we’ll bring you back if the fans demand it,” sort of thing. Maybe they do have plans for him, like, planned out plans, but I doubt it.

                I disagree. I think that Cas should have been de-powered after the Godstiel twist was over; if the Godstiel story had been different and not ended here, of course. I think there was a lot of potential in season 6. And I said this in one of my other comments, on another article, but season 6 should have been this post apocalyptic sort of atmosphere, and there should have been more emphasis on the idea of free will, now that destiny had been averted. There were hints of that, like with the one sister of fate, and with the Cas centric episode and such, but the season didn’t do that. But my point is, Cas VS Raphael could have been this great storyline of free will VS determinism,if it had been fleshed out in more than one episode, and in that sense, Cas would need his powers in order for that fleshed out story to work. And then he should have lost them sometime after that story ended, and lived out his human life in the last season or two, as part of his redemption. That would have been ideal. So that’s why I say I think it’s better that Cas kept his powers in season 6. But yeah.

                Ahhh I see what you mean. But again, there was a big drop from the first and second episode, not a season and a season, which is a bad sign.

                I agree. The stories have been redundant since season 6 started.

                • No No you get me wrong, Castiel should have been depowered when returning the souls, rather than be something wonderfully exciting promising for 12 seconds then killed.
                  So now being very depressed and regretful about his actions but very limited to fix them, and also hunted cos everyone knows his face, would be interesting as if being stuck on earth is his punishment

                  Very interesting talking to my very anti Angel mate, who refuses to call him by name, shes gutted hes gone, and the way he went was very poor

                  I think viewers will drop slowly cos not everyone sees the interviews and on line comments so still hold hope he will do a crowley

                  I so need to have a good play with the viewing figures, but what im saying is s6 ended with say 2.11 mil viewers s7 started with 2.01 viewers ep 2 got 1.8mil given the castiel centric episode (the man who would be king) got 2.11mil viewers and normally the finale is higher than the few before it that shows unhappy people already

                  Im still watching s6 on tv (im in the UK and we are only on e18) and Im questioning things along with a comment Misha made which was he was told he was being killed of at the end of s6 and they changed their minds and made him god, which explains a lot of the plot holes, like how did he get sam out, and who brough samuel back, and why bring him back, what a horrible pointless plot

                  I agree freewill was a better plot, and what a soul is, cos sam appeared to be socially adjusted just a bit nasty until the found he had no soul, then dean had to tell him how to act, which i found very strange

                  • Oh sorry. Yeah I agree with that. And I agree, that could have been interesting.

                    Awww I hope your friend is feeling better now. :/ Yeah I know quite a few people who are really sad about his “death”.

                    Yeah, most viewers don’t know a lot of the spoilers and stuff. And I know that H8ER, a new reality show for the CW, got .5 million viewers last Friday, and that for the last two episodes Supernatural has gotten .7 (a different rating system then the one you’re describing, I’m not sure how it works), and H8ER got cancelled. And reality shows have a much lower budget than shows like Supernatural. If it stays steady, it will be renewed, but if it drops down to .5, it might be cancelled. I mean, even Smallville managed to hold a 1.0 for season 10, but Supernatural can only hold a .7 for season seven.

                    I know! :/ These writers have no idea what they’re doing! At some convention, Misha was asked what he thought of the way Dean treated Castiel in the last few episodes of the season, and Misha said that Dean was kind of being a jerk, especially considering everything Cas had done for him.

    • Completely agreed. The show has been spiraling down the crapper for a while now. The one thing that I can make of all this that keeps popping up as the series progresses is this:

      The writers don’t love their own characters. Think about it. It’s ironic, given the prominent theme of absent fathers the show has featured, but they treat their own characters, indeed their whole universe the same way that God does. With complete indifference. (Except at least God respects Castiel and what he’s done enough to bring him back to life instead of killing him pointlessly.)

      As an example, when Castiel started to diverge from his former compliant, semi-humble role as Dean’s buttboy, I actually thought it was a good thing. Like his rebellion from heaven, it was necessary if he was going to grow into a more complex, rounded character. And it made sense that he would eventually rebel, because he was pretty much treated like a child by Dean, who himself became a kind of absent father towards Cas, telling him what to do, insulting him when he disobeyed, but never actually explaining anything to him or instilling any kind of critical thought. But no, the writers only do that as some lazy, nonsensical attempt to villainize him, create some superficial action, and (it turns out) get rid of a character that would be too much work for them to handle in an interesting, salient manner.

      They regurgitate these tired storylines over and over again because they don’t understand their character’s trajectory. They don’t give their characters a trajectory. The characters are almost just as half-assed as the plots. It’s the creative equivalent of throwing some popcorn in the dust, pissing on it, and then expecting a garden to grow.

      The actors do their best with what little they’ve got, and they’re talented enough to have kept it going this long. And even the writers get some stuff right by accident. In fact, if I’m being too harsh it’s because despite it all, there have been little shining nuggets of potential and it’s just painful to see them repeatedly shat on.

      I suspect partially the reason the show is the way it is is because they’re trying to target some young male audience and think that means sacrificing everything in the name of some kind of macho, no-homo grittiness. But mostly I think they’re just unimaginative and lazy.

      • I think the think that is interesting is bringing back Jo, I didnt like jo when we 1st met her, didnt like her at any point other then when she died, and that was so they wouldnt carry on forcing that horrible unrealistic relationship on us, but no they are bringing her back and I gather she will get to kiss Dean

        in season 4 and season 6 the Misha centric (i say Misha as Jimmy is the focus of the rapture not so much Castiel) episode towards the end of the season has always done very well with ratings, the man who would be king had the same amount of viewers as the final ep of season 6, the rapture had more than the final episode of season 4 both were 3 from the end, the same placed episode in s5 was 20% lower than the final episode of season 5, suggesting people like Castiel, so killing him off when s7 ep 3′s viewing figures were 1.64mil (and given its a jensen directed ep and hyped as such I expect it to pull in more viewers due to that) is a risk, you cant afford to upset fans like that
        Also Castiel was one of the only characters you could really push and use, he has so much to learn about everything, he was learning love though the brothers, Bobby was starting to be paternal to him, treating him as one of the boys, and that relationship was interesting, him and Sam were interesting as well as both didnt bond much until the end of season 5 due to sams demon blood and relationship with ruby

        • I am replying to both of your comments here:


          I agree with everything you said. I actually laughed at certain parts, because that’s just so accurate, and I just don’t have the heart to be hurt by it anymore. These people really don’t care what they’re writing. It’s kind of weird, because this season the show has experienced kind of a reboot; all the characters except the main trio are dead, the show is back to hunting monsters, albeit slightly different ones now with the leviathans… did the CW maybe push them to do this? After seeing the disaster that was season 6, and how the ratings suffered, did they want the writers to make season 7 a kind of reboot? *sigh* Well it’s not working, because the ratings continue to drop. Also: yeah, this show tries way too hard to be a “no homo” show. It frequently has Dean spout out lines that are meant to reassure the audience that he is indeed still a heterosexual. *face palm*

          I have absolutely no problem with Jo being brought back, NECESSARILY, what I DO MIND is that she seems to be the focal point of Dean’s guilt. Not his father, not his mother, not Sam, not Adam (WHO IS STILL SUFFERING IN THE PIT MIGHT I ADD), nobody else, but for some reason Jo is the focal point. Why?! Yes, Dean feels guilty about her, but she’s definitely not what he should feel most guilty about! He should feel guilty about either his two parents the most, or Castiel! His dad for dying for him, his mom because she’s still managing to affect him to this day, and Castiel, because Cas sacrificed himself four times for the trio, but especially Dean, he rebelled against heaven, he worked with Crowley so that his sacrifices wouldn’t be worthless, and he “died” thinking that no one loved him… plus he’s much more recent. Why does Jo get the spotlight? I love her, but she only died once for Dean. Why not Ellen or someone else? He not only got Ellen killed, but he caused her the grief of knowing that her daughter was going to die. I fear it’s for the reason that you’ve said; they’re going to try and get these two romantically involved again.

          Yeah Cas had so many stories left to offer. But the writers are lazy. Did you see episode 3 of season 7? The flashbacks were mostly unnecessary, but they were put in there to suck up time for an almost non existent story. And the episode would have been much cooler if it took place entirely at the hospital. I’ll explain my thoughts more when the recap for episode 3 is put up on this site.

          • I watched the 1st 15-17 mins then realised it was going to be a monster of a week ep and was so let down how easily they escaped the hospital and couldnt work out why the whole hospital thinh wasnt used better.

            Seems to be a theme wasted good options, I was so delighted at the thought of Misha as the leviathan and the possiblity of Castiel fighting against that for a bit, but no its just bye bye Misha and back to dean drinking, Bobby who is not a brother or orginal cast member hanging around with them (i live in hope that he will turn out to be evil that would be fun)

            It seems very clear that Misha is unlikely to be back and we are being told he may to keep us happy, hes said he isnt in the next 11 and hasnt been contacted about coming back according to reports I have read, its a massive shame I wonder if something happened behind the scenes with them all

            • I know. It would’ve been really cool if the entire episode had taken place at the hospital, as Sam and Dean tried to escape with Bobby’s help. The threat of the leviathans could be established (and the show could have made them scary rather than lame for letting them escape so easily) and we could have learned more about them. It could have also allowed slower character moments, so we could see how the loss of Cas is affecting them (which might I add was not brought up once in the episode), or how Bobby losing his home affected him. But nnooooo. The writers are too lazy to try anything different. So they reverted to telling a monster of the week episode that won’t affect anything. What annoyed me most though is how they had this cliffhanger that Sam and Dean would be trapped in the hospital, and in the first part of the episode all the consequences are reset and it doesn’t affect anything. And then they just hide out in some cabin in the woods. HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT FROM BOBBY’S HOUSE?! Other than that it doesn’t have the lore, how is it different? These leviathans can’t find these guys for three whole weeks? God, that was so bad. What bull crap.

              I know. I am so tired of Dean developing the way that he is. And if the first 17 minutes of the episode annoy you, you definitely don’t want to see what Dean does in the last several. *sigh* I don’t want Bobby to become evil. That would be stupid. :/ But I think I heard a rumor that Bobby is going to have some secrets this season? *face palm*

              I know. The writers won’t even tell him when or if he’s coming back. Because they don’t know. The worst part is that Misha is being selective about which auditions he’s going for so it doesn’t conflict with his possible schedule for Supernatural. I’m really starting to hate these writers. It’s one thing to ruin a show, and it’s another to totally mess with someone’s career because you don’t. Plan. Your. Stuff. Out.

          • Yeah, it definitely does seem like they’re trying to regress toward some two character, monster of the week formula. It’s like what you said about the show being afraid to evolve. The first few seasons were good, and they established the heart of what the story was about, but stories and characters need to move on — grow up. And for a while they seemed to. The apocalypse, the angelic mythology, even purgatory had some potential to elevate the series, but there’s a serious systemic problem with the writing that has resulted in countless characters (and now the very series itself) being written into corners.

            I think Jo is another good example actually. She was conceived pretty poorly, her whole identity was pretty much just revolving around this cliched, kind of forced personality of a peppy, useless younger sis. With some work and focus she could have grown though, but instead the writers do the very weird, very shortsighted thing of making her a love interest for Dean. It’s cheap, forced, and lazy. Naturally, it ends with her brutal, bloody death.

            Maybe they think this kind of regressing is going to please the fans and fix their ratings, but it’s that very same tendency to cling to whatever it is they are idolizing about the show’s concept that has brought the show to the bad, bad place it is in now.

            I read somewhere that after Jo’s expulsion, Kripke actually said that on the show female characters should only appear as either love interests or antagonists. Like the homophobia (I know, seriously, how many gay jokes have been exchanged as insults over the course of the series? It’s like being in a high school boy’s locker room. Insecure much?), I think this goes back to the idea that they are trying to either sell to a specific audience, or are themselves just extremely smallminded, ignorant people. It’s probably a combination of both. They have this stubborn mentality of what the show should be, and they don’t care about the actual stories or the characters enough to give them what they need to allow them to grow up. They’re just the tools to advance the vapid, hole-studded plots and agendas. It’s just like how John treated Sam and Dean! xD

            It’s the reason Destiel would never, ever happen. Even though the actors have done a wonderful job of fleshing out their characters as much as possible given the writing, and in the process created this relationship that makes a lot of sense, it wouldn’t be allowed because the show is just not mature enough for it. The narrative itself reviles the idea.

            I know what you mean about not having the heart to be hurt by it anymore. I really find it very difficult to watch the show, partly because it’s frustrating, but now mostly because it’s just so transparent and frankly boring. I’m even worse than Ellie now. I watched the last episode’s opening credits on mute, saw Mark Sheppard’s name wasn’t in them, and turned off the TV. Pretty much the only thing I’m curious about anymore now that Cas is gone is how they handle Crowley’s situation. (All bets are on them tanking just like with everything else — they wrote him into a corner every bit as much.) Even though it was funny seeing him in a motorhome with a four o’ clock shadow. Do demons even grow facial hair?

            I suppose bringing back Jo is interesting, but I’m not hopeful. I very much doubt they will make her into an autonomous, well rounded character. I cringe at the very likely possibility that they will revive the Jo/Dean “romance”. Yuck.

            • I will reply to both of you here,
              I hope to god (castiel) that Misha isnt being that loyal to the show and being selective about what he goes for as they have shown him no loyality, he is the only actor/character fans have truely warmed too and maybe there is a deep seated homophobic as if Destiel is the only way to go from where they were, so “the best way to take a character foward is to kill them” serious is that the crap coming out of their mouths these days.
              I really hope he gets a decent role elsewhere and that prevents him going back when they suddenly demand him at the end of the season

              Dean has been going down hill, and as i took Castiels side over Deans (something i would never have considered possible a few seasons ago, Dean was the main reason for me watching the show could never warm to Sam in the same way)

              I think the monster of the week thing has never really gone away and they tend to have the lowest viewers, like the terrible fairy ep in s6 or the dummy one, both i seriously hated, while I loved caged heat, with 3 of my fav characters
              Maybe a Meg, Crowley Castiel spin off is the answer, these characters interact so well, in fact some of my fav scenes are those with Castiel and Meg, that was something never fully developed, and we should have seen more of them, and her hate of crowley wasnt fully explained, yes she was a lucifer lover, but killing crowley cos of that seemed lame

              I do think Crowley will be ruined and turned into the next winchester pet, which he never would be realistically

              Im bemused that every ep is bringing in a special guest to keep people watching, spike and cordellia, I didnt like them in Angel/Buffy not fussed about them showing up in SN, would rather just keep Misha than the firefly girl, the buffy rejects, and jo

              • I’ll reply to both of you here.

                Yeah, there is a big systematic problem. And you’re right about what you said. Sacrificing character and stories for the illusion of conflict, in exchange for making the job of writing the show easier. :/ It feels like a combination between a lack of vision, a grab for ratings, and a lack of passion (total indifference like you said).

                I kind of agree with what you said about Jo. I love Jo on her own, but in the context of the show she isn’t used very well most of the time. And her romance with Dean is forced. I can see with what the writers were going for, sort of– that if Dean were with Jo, then he wouldn’t have to choose between family/love and hunting– but that’s not how it came across. It came off as Dean being a twisted, perverted old man. :/ Not that age matters in a relationship necessarily, but the relationship between them itself is much like a little sister/older brother one, so romance is out of the question. And it’s not like he even tried ot be romantic in anyway, he directly approached her and tried to sleep with her.

                That reminds me of Bella, when you mentioned Jo’s expulsion. Personally, I love Bella on her own as well, she’s awesome, but most of the time in season 3 she wasn’t used as well as she could have been. She was introduced on the show to “mix things up for the boys”, and she was killed off because her character was negatively received by fans. Often times, the cast and crew have made fun of the fanbase (at least, the hardcore fanbase, made up mostly of females) as being sexist against their own sex, because pretty much all of the female characters have been negatively received. I think that is seriously twisted, and it’s one of the reasons why this show can’t seem to evolve. I can understand joking about it, in a light hearted sense, but seriously making changes to your show because of it isn’t right. And they’re wrong, it’s not because the female fanbase is sexist against themselves. It’s because this show has mostly done a bad job writing female characters. I love a lot of the females on this show, out of context (Anna, Jo, and Bella spring to mind– I’ll get to Anna in a moment), but they’re ALWAYS treated like crap and killed off as soon as they no longer serve a function in a story. Then we we react negatively towards something they’ve done, they brush it off as the general fanbase being sexist and ridiculous, or being too nit picky. GUESS WHAT? That’s not true.The show is very misogynistic. There’s this great post on it, here, that really sums up all the “characters always dying” stuff that we’ve been talking about (basically what I said except about the whole show in general and shorter): http://victoryjobs.tumblr.com/post/6394491809

                I don’t mean to bring up Destiel, but yes, what you’ve said is true. It’s never going to happen. I don’t want it to happen because it would be hot~ or anything, I think it would really reveal layers about each character that nothing else, and no one else, could. But that’s another discussion. In regards to the homophobic remark, I partially agree. The show was definitely like that at first, and still kind of is, but I don’t think it’s fair to write off the writers as entirely small minded. You have to remember that most of the homophobic (if not all) comments have come from Dean. Dean; a character who is so emotionally damaged but has been conditioned to “be a man” and not show it. Dean is a male who has been conditioned by society, and especially his father and his way of life, to be masculine. This kind of leads into another discussion, about Dean being bisexual, but I don’t think now’s the time? lol. But anyway, as the show has gone on, they’ve thrown snippets of tolerance our way. I mean, in the premiere episode, Castiel smited not one, but two separate people who were anti gay. And there have been other things like that as well, such as the “Cas get out of my ass” joke, or the “Dean and I do share a more profound bond”, and even Gabriel often making comments like that. One of the writers, Ben Edlund, wrote the Castiel centric episode, and he’s written a number of other great episodes as well, and he’s gay. Not that I mean to bring attention to his personal life, but my point is that the writers aren’t necessarily small minded, they’re just stuck in this “these characters can’t even show emotion, THEY HAVE TO BE MEN; and if they do cry, they have to be chugging beer while doing so”, sort of mentality. But really, Destiel is wasted potential.

                Oh my, I hope they don’t ruin Crowley. That would be a shame, I love him. And I know what you mean. I could barely get myself through the third episode because of how frustrated I was. What a waste of potential. I said this before, but that episode should have been some crazy, scary hospital sort of episode. But nope. Instead, Bobby has to become a plot device, immediately reset the consequences of the cliff hanger, have three weeks pass so Dean’s leg could heal (another way to reset the consequences), even though the combination of having the episode take place at the hospital and Dean’s leg being hurt and making him feel trapped and useless could have been really interesting. *sigh* And then the show has the nerve to tell a totally pointless story that has nothing to do with the beginning of the episode. It was horrendous. And I feel so bad for Jensen, because he actually directed that one, and I like the visual choices that he made. :/ *sighs again* I hope he didn’t feel bad about himself if, when, he saw the ratings.


                I’m afraid Misha is being that loyal. Actually at Toronto Con, where he was three days ago, he talked about how he’s anxious to see Castiel be revived. When asked for his thoughts on Castiel’s death, he said how when he read the leviathan entrance scene, he was excited, but then he died like a page later and he was like “aw…”, basically. I feel kind of sorry for the actors. I mean, they don’t really seem that happy with the material they’re getting. And they’re awesome, and try to smile about it, but I wonder if they’re happy with what they’re doing, especially since they film this stuff for most of the year. Take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5KHRnNzZrM&feature=player_embedded It just doesn’t seem like there’s going to be anything in this season worth a damn. And it shows. Dean has to watch over Sam, Sam’s losing control, Dean is having man pain~ and angsting over it, more distrust, etc. And I agree. I don’t even want Castiel to come back if they’re going to treat him like crap again.

                I don’t have a problem with monster of the week episodes, because most of the time they tell good stories or have important character moments (there’s one in season 4 that springs to mind, where Sam realizes that he may not be able to control his demon blood powers forever, because the monster in the episode couldn’t control himself either), but the ones in season 6, and the most recent on in season 7, are all just pointless fillers. I don’t think a spinoff would work, as much as I love those three (lol I’m laughing at how Meg is actually the only female character we’ve seen through the whole series whom hasn’t died, which is a miracle).

                I know. They’re really desperate. :/ I am kind of looking forward to seeing the guest stars though, regardless.

                • Now i liked that interview, was very interesting, Jensen looked to be toeing the party line but not believing what he was saying, i think a 7th season of dealing with Sams issues is clearly the direction the show needs to go lol

                • I think that in order for a Jo/Dean romance to be sensible, they would need to focus on developing Jo’s character outside of her relationship with the Winchesters — make her a full character instead of a diminutive satellite of Dean. Otherwise yeah, his hitting on her is gross and inappropriate. Even if they did allow her to grow, it kind of wouldn’t make sense that she would still be attracted to Dean because her feelings for him have relied on her seeing him as some kind of role model. So in other words, she would have to grow up and be her own person in order for that kind of relationship to not be icky, but in so doing that relationship I don’t think would make sense. (Destiel all the way.)

                  As a female “fan” myself (fan probably isn’t the appropriate word now), I’ve come to expect female characters that are poorly written or just completely absent. But Supernatural really takes it to the next level. You are spot-on about the show’s misogyny. They treat all secondary characters horribly, but the women especially really get the shaft. It’s like the writers get off on killing them. They’ve made it into a sport. The only reason fans react so negatively to these characters is that the writers intentionally made them as one-dimensional tools to revolve around the brothers. Any depth they may have developed was later squashed, then they were killed. All for some cheap, inconsequential, nonsensical plotlines.

                  One female character I really liked that comes to mind is Lenore. I think her death for me really was the last straw. Not only did they undermine her whole past and identity by having her feed (justified by some stupid “pull” that Eve was having on her that was never even mentioned anywhere else), they bring her back just to use her for information and then kill her for no real reason (“justified” by the writers because of the butt-pulled Eve thing). And then, to top it off, Crowley comes back in the SAME episode and gets to stick around. I too love Crowley and was glad he wasn’t gone, but that was just cruel.

                  Anna was another character I thought had potential, but again (and like Cas), they went and undermined anything she might have been by making her go all evil for no reason and then killing her for it. You can’t just repeatedly sacrifice your characters to make up for your lack of imagination and foresight. It’s like you said. They don’t plan their stuff out.

                  I don’t really think that all the writers are completely small-minded, but they have collectively created an atmosphere in the show that is. Their tolerance is superficial. Dean could very well be struggling with something, and it would make a lot of sense if that something were bisexuality, or just plain humanity. If it were real life, I’d say the reason he felt the need to constantly berate Cas was because he was afraid of what he could potentially bring out in him — vulnerability. And to a very small extent the narrative recognizes that, but like I said (and like you just said), the very show itself is clinging desperately to this idea of machoness. Gore, beer, and dead women. The writers are just as afraid as Dean is, and probably for the same reasons.

                  Don’t even get me started on the third episode. Ick. It’s like their actions have no real consequences anymore. Nothing matters. And you just know that Bobby would be dead if it weren’t for the fact that he’s any easy way for them to weasel in and out of their half-baked plots.

                  That’s sad about Misha. Even though the reasons leading up to it were nonsensical, I think they should at least have kept him on as the big bad. Not only would it have shifted the heaven/hell/purgatory politics of the whole christian mythology, I think having Cas be a vessel for the leviathans would have made them much more interesting, and much more threatening. They have no personality. And it was really weird how they just dumped the whole thing in the first episode. I mean, Cas and Crowley’s conversation? What was that? Now it’s completely irrelevant.

                  The monster of the week thing is fine to some degree, but it needs to exist within the context of a well thought out, overarching story. It needs to be going somewhere. Right now they’re just floundering and killing time, regurgitating tired themes.

                  I know, right? Why his coat and not his socks or underwear? That was awfully convenient. Seriously though, it was just horrible. It was probably the single most horrible incident on the show, and what’s worse is that it was inevitable given the writer’s inabilities.

                  I actually didn’t much like Buffy/Spike either. I think that was kind of the point. It was kind of necessary for his redemption and her development though, so I found it tolerable. Spike as a character I thought was fun. I liked when they went back in time and showed him as poet. I liked Cordy too, but only in Buffy. She gets all docile and motherly in Angel. Anyway, Spn could really learn a thing or two from Buffy. I actually like Spn’s general mood/style/camerawork more, but that’s about it. I really wish they could get their act together.

                  Crowley… I just don’t have a good feeling about it. The whole thing is so messed up. Part of me is hoping he has another trick up his sleeve, but another part is wondering why he even bothers. They haven’t explained that. They won’t, but they should.

                  • Is it wrong that I really like Meg, shes fun you know when shes on screen its going to be fun

                    You are right there was a lot that wasnt needed in that 1st episode, why not leave Castiel dead and have the black goo just ooze out of him rather than take him over and then him die, did they forget we do care about him

                    I like the idea of dean struggling with being bi sexual, that would be very hard for him to deal with as hes such a mans man, Sam i think is a more rounded character than dean (even though i dislike sam)

                    Too many poorly thought out ideas and over the next few months we should see the impact of losing Misha and making it Sam season 7, Dean girls wont like it unless dean gets a real story this season, and im not sure his current self hating spiral of depression eased by a moment of clarity some point towards the end of the season will count

              • Ellie:
                As much as I like and had hopes for the character of Castiel, I definitely have to agree with you about the actor moving on. The show really doesn’t deserve Misha anymore, and it’s unlikely if they brought the character back, that they’d even have the brains (or the soul) to give him a good, sensible story arc. Plus his “send-off” (if you can call it that) was just too horrendous to ever forgive.

                However cool it would be, I very much doubt a spin-off would happen. Like I said, all characters besides Sam and Dean (and now even them, to some extent) are ultimately just plot devices to the writers.

                If it really is their intent to make Crowley an indoor kitty, it’ll be very disappointing. Even though I think his role as an antagonist has been overplayed, and (again) his is a character that needs to evolve and take the next step up if he’s to survive on the show, I DO NOT think the answer is to make him the next supernatural servant to the boys. Like Meg and Jo and Cas and so many others, much of his character’s identity is dependent on the brilliance of the actor, and the writers have really failed in giving him any kind of identity beyond his use as a plot device for the brothers. Any kind of neutering/semi-redemption is only going to be for the purpose of convenience, not advancement of the character. He’ll probably end up dying or stuck in the fridge — like everyone else.

                It’s funny Spike should come up, because his was a character that was like a lot of characters on Supernatural. He started out pretty much as just a plot device, an enemy for Buffy to defeat. His existence centered around his use to the main characters. But because the Buffy writers were waaay more self-aware and flexible than the writers of Spn, they actually took this one-dimensional character that was intended to stick around only for a few episodes, and slowly morphed him into a full-fledged character who ended up sacrificing himself saving the world. I think that really speaks about the extreme difference between the shows. Buffy really cared about its characters, and it evolved over time to accommodate them, gave them backstories, made them real. It wasn’t afraid of changing. It embraced it. And I’ll be really pissed if Supernatural gets an eighth season when Buffy only got seven.

                Spn doesn’t deserve to even have Marsters or Carpenter guest star. They really must be getting desperate to bring them on.

                • I really dont get Castiel’s exit, was terrible no one seems that sure what happened, and why was only his coat there not his other clothes, to be fair im so cross with that as an exit I cant even be bothered to think about it, the ironic thing is Misha got a far better Exit in 24 where there was sobbing etc about his character dying, and he was a baddie

                  I agree he needs to move on, he is too good an actor to be type cast and stuck on the one show, I find it interesting how they like to cast actors who are close to their characters in their natural personality, it makes me concerned for the brothers being type cast long term.

                  Also there was an interesting article about where the cast of buffy have gone since buffy, they were massive in the world of buffy but hardly known outside it, and not overly done much since, I mean guest staring on a failing cable show isnt that great for your career is it?

                  I agree with you buffy did know how to play to the strenghts and adapt to the new characters, I never really liked spike though, i never liked him and buffy together, but life would be dull if we liked the same people

                  Crowley im very mixed about, i liked him but as a replacement for Castiel I hate that idea, I think hes over used, he should be used like Meg

                  • I’ll reply to both of your recent comments here (lol this thread is organized in a weird way):


                    Yeah, you’re right on the dot with your comments about Jo and Dean. It would’ve been awesome to see Jo, and characters like Jo, fully fleshed out, outside of the context of Sam and Dean. It’s a creepy relationship. And I understand that the show is about two brothers, but it shouldn’t always be centered on them. It should be told mostly from their perspective, that’s fine. The show should be allowed to evolve though, over time, and branch out to other characters. I mean, look at some of the two best episodes of last season: The Cas centric one and the Bobby centric one. How refreshing were those episodes? They were not only a break from the norm, but it was so refreshing to hear the story from someone other than the two brothers of manly angst. lol yes indeed Destiel all the way.

                    Yeah the female characters are treated horribly. The worst moment, personally for me, is in the western episode, when the character “Rachel”, whom has apparently been Cas’s assistant throughout the last nearly two years, is in two scenes and dies in the first twenty minutes. I actually couldn’t help but laugh at that because it was so pathetic. It was like a parody of all the other female deaths. It’s just another example of the writers not planning anything out, as well. And about Elenore, that was cruel. She was the blonde girl whom liked Bobby right? Ugh. I think the thing that bothered me most about that, was how she and Bobby apparently loved each other, but then she died, similar to how Jim Beaver lose his wife. That must have been hard for him. D,: And what was the point? To cover necessary ground by using the closest plot device available.

                    Indeed, the third episode is ick. Whatever happened to Cas killing a butt load of people? Does the world not care, or…? *sigh* And of course, whenever this leviathan thing ends, a giant memory wipe will be pulled to reset the consequences. Amnesia stories are like the extra nail after the final nail in the coffin, mostly.

                    Actually, regarding Misha, there were some spoilers released yesterday, so beware if you don’t want to know. But….. apparently Misha IS coming back sometime this season. There’s no word on whether it’s as Cas or as a leviathan, or what episode it will be (though we know it won’t be until episode 13 at least), but he will be coming back. Honestly I don’t want him to, because I feel like the writers are just going to ruin his character even more. And I want this show to get better, I do; but there’s nothing convincing me to believe that.

                    I agree about the monster of the week stories.

                    Second comment:

                    *sigh* I don’t even want to think about how Crowley is going to be used. Mark is brilliant, though.

                    And apparently the SPN office had to repeatedly ask/convince the two Buffy alums to be on their show? :/ Oh well.


                    Yeah, I hope Misha is able to move on. But since he’s coming back in some form, it’s hard to say how that will happen. If they kill him off again (or if he’s dead already and the leviathan is just using his vessel) I will be pissed. I hope that Jensen and Jared are able to move on as well. Like I said, one of the things I worry about most is how THEY feel about the show. :/ Are they happy with where it’s going? It doesn’t sound like it. And it’s sad, because Jensen was offered a role in the next Resident Evil move, but he had to decline because of scheduling conflicts. Their contracts go through season 8. I hope they’re both able to have a successful career after the show.

                    I can’t really speak about all the Buffy references, because I’ve only seen the first three seasons (but I plan to start the fourth soon).

                    • I forgot about Rachel, she had potential, and Fate (her and castiel’s history interested me as they seemed to know each other well) they were interesting characters and could have been fun to watch develope and interact with the boys

                      I found both Castiel and Bobby away from the brothers interesting, they could be more themselves, it showed what they give up for the boys, the western ep (which seemed mostly pointless) the Castiel/Bobby scenes were the best, seeing what they are doing for the sake of the brothers, bobby sat there with an alarm clock waiting for them, both of them endangering themselves for the boys sakes, and dean not even caring when Castiel and bobby both look shattered and making his demands again

                      Dean has got more selfish over the seasons, everything is about him and ignore how it impacts others, Castiel in s5 time travel ep is very seriously drained and bleeding and dean shows a lack of concern both times, when he returns and passes out Dean acts as if hes just annoying rather than its hos fault for demanding it
                      Bobby loses use of his legs protecting Dean
                      Pam loses her eyes doing deans bidding, and yet he blames Castiel for it, even though Castiel tells her not to look at his true form, and she ignores it.
                      Dean takes very little responsibility for his demands and actions

                      And why is dean always right or considered to be so, I do believe with the support of the brothers Castiel’s plan would have worked, he would have stopped rapheal and handed the power back and all would have been done

                      Re Misha, I will believe it when I see it, I read from Sera’s interview it was in the pipe line but nothing agreed about him returning, and we are not being told its anything more than him appearing as the ghost of jimmy to haunt dean about his wrongs, and as he was only in ep 2 for 5 mins I hope out no faith in it being a significant return rather a 5 min thing, or like crowley in mommy dearest.

                      Jensen was really offered a role in the movie, wow cool, you would have thought they would move things to help him do it, i gather they helped Mark Sheppard out with doctor who

                      Monster of the week is ok, if in a story arch, but they had them in every season to date so how is this season different if the leviathans are the main story, thats where I am confused, its still not about just the brothers as Bobby is still there, and while he is still there I see no reason for no Castiel, its either Dean and Sam in their obsessive, confining little world, or its Dean, Sam and friends, I know bobby is a plot device etc, but hes still there and the writers said brothers only
                      This bothers me a lot

                      Oh well we will see what happens over the season

                      and they really had to try a few times to get the buffy pairing in the show? thats interesting

                    • For some reason Ellie the site won’t let me respond to your post directly, so I’m replying to mine:

                      I agree. Rachel could have been a cool character. And Fate could have been too; I would have liked to see her in more episodes, if season 6 had been rehashed into what we talked about earlier, with the post apocalyptic feel and the free will idea.

                      Exactly! The two characters really shined in those episodes because they weren’t just used for whatever the two angst brothers needed. There’s a line in Bobby’s episode that I find hilarious, when he calls out Dean and Sam on, sometimes, being some of the most self absorbed people he’s ever met. It just reminds me of how this is really true to the show in general. And I agree, the Cas and Bobby scenes were great, because they were outside the context of Sam and Dean. I know! Did you mean the s6 time travel one? Because yeah, Cas was seriously about to drop from being so exhausted and Dean just asked him again, not caring. I understand that he was desperate to get the ashes, but he didn’t even thank Cas. He never thanks Cas.

                      I wouldn’t say he’s gotten more selfish, per say, he’s just getting more and more closed off and is retreading the same ground over and over.

                      Yes. If Cas just had the help of the trio things might have turned out alright. But you know, the writers needed to pull a story out of their butts, so they turned Cas into a villain and introduced the leviathans. I’m rather annoyed by all the people who keep claiming Dean is right in what he did or that he’s “flawless”~, especially after the ending of the third episode.

                      I’m talking about a different article, one that came out yesterday. Here it is: http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/s6/supernatural/news/a344804/supernatural-exec-confirms-actor-return.html#article_continue Misha is coming back.

                      “Obsessive, confining little world” is exactly right.

                    • (What is up with the post formatting? Sheesh.)
                      Meg definitely made things interesting. I like how she often gets the best of Sam and Dean. I think she deserves more screen time. They really ought to explain why she hates Crowley. They’re very similar characters.

                      The whole thing in the first episode was really weird. Maybe they didn’t want to have to deal with Cas’s (Jimmy’s) body? It felt like it was just a really cheap way to just be done with him, you know? Like they didn’t want to have a “death scene” where you could actually see what was happening and feel bad about it. Plus, there was that whole thing with the leviathans and the water supply.

                      I think something like that is just what Dean’s character needs. He needs to stop worrying about Sam all the time and figure himself out — strip away some of the manly man crap. He needs to see other people. It was so refreshing to see him have some kind of relationship with someone besides Sam.

                      I don’t know why, but I’ve never really liked Sam either. I think maybe he’s too normal. Even with the whole demon blood thing. I don’t know.

                      I know right? I don’t understand the writer’s obsession with limiting the show to these two characters only. It’s not like it wouldn’t still be about them. Plus, the main characters need to have other fully developed characters to interact with in order to grow. As it is they just stagnate, playing the same games with each other over and over. It’s boring and unhealthy on so many levels. Plus, having only their perspectives lessens the impact. It makes it less real. Everything is less important, more inconsequential. The stakes are lower when it’s only them (especially since they are constantly being resurrected). Why would it be so bad to have even one or two other characters who don’t die?

                      Supernatural should be a really good learning experience for other writers of what NOT to do. It’s the only show that actually makes me tempted to read fanfiction (maybe not the tentacly kind though), because it’s the only show (I still bother to watch) whose writers understand their characters less than the fans. I don’t think I’ve ever been a shipper before either. Even though Dean and Cas do have a ton of chemistry, I think the main reason Destiel is so attractive is because fans are just desperate to see Dean connect with someone who isn’t Sam. They intuitively know that’s what he needs to grow up.

                      I forgot about Rachel. That was beyond words. Just awful. It totally was like a parody. The lack of self-awareness couldn’t be worse.

                      Lenore was the name of the vampire that Amber Benson plays in an episode in season 2 (then later in season 6). That’s who I was talking about. But yeah, Eleanor was also yet another tragic case of Supernatural misogyny. I mean, didn’t we find out that she was some kind of really old mystical creature or something? She had a King Artheresque sword-in-a-rock in her f-ing living room for God’s sake. If that’s not a character deserving of more exploration, I don’t know who is.

                      The third episode was so annoying. So much had just happened and I’m supposed to care about Sam’s random childhood girlfriend? That’s the most important thing right now? It is really quite disturbing how little the writers care about being consistent. It’s disrespectful to viewers too. Do they think we don’t notice this stuff? They don’t even bother to retcon anything. They just don’t care.

                      I agree. There’s no reason to feel hopeful that the show is going to change. Misha would be best moving on. I hope beyond hope they don’t mess his character up too much more.

                      Crowley should take his motorhome and park it where the Spn writers will never find him. (Maybe in the land of good TV writing?)

                    • I’ve always wanted Meg to be more fleshed out as well. Even in the early seasons, it would have been nice to see the relationship between her and Azazel, seeing as she’s his daughter and everything. :/

                      The show didn’t have time to have a death scene for him. They had to get to the procedural story and torturing Sammy for no reason. Remember? lol. Plus since Misha is coming back it was a way for his “death” to be vague.

                      I agree. His entire existence revolves around Sam, and it’s gotten to the point where he sees happiness for himself, outside of Sam, impossible. And I don’t get why people find that appealing. That’s not love, that’s obsession. You’ve never liked Sam? D: Aw. I’ve always liked Sam more than Dean, personally. I think maybe that’s because he WANTED to be normal, because he always knew deep down that he wasn’t, but I can see what you mean.

                      I absolutely agree. I think it stems from a number of things: 1) trying to reel in old fans, by appealing to their “this show is just about two brothers” mentality, to increase the ratings, 2) having a serious, serious misunderstanding of their characters, and 3) being stuck in the mentality that has caused the show to regress to where it is now. The show is having a few recurring guest stars this season. Apparently there’s going to be a recurring guest star who is a “computer nerd”, and will help the trio? So I guess he’s like a second Bobby? *shrugs*

                      Oh I know! I want to go into the TV/film business, and I love talking about this kind of stuff. It’s really great learning material of mistakes not to make lol.

                      I understand your want to read fan fiction. I’m not a big reader of it, but I have read some for this show. I have a recommendation. Supernatural: Redemption Road. It’s not a single piece of fan fiction, but is instead a “virtual season”. A virtual season is when a group of writers and artists get together to write a whole season together. This group is full of talented writers and artists. The virtual season is of season 7, and it has a Destiel twist to it. Every week, the group is putting up a new chapter of the show to read, and they’ve planned out the story. There will be 22 chapters total, like 22 episodes. But yeah. I read the first episode, and it’s off to a good start. These people have a much better understanding of the characters, and it looks like the Godstiel thing will be much more fleshed out. Here’s their blog: http://supernaturalredemptionroad.tumblr.com/ and the first episode is near the bottom. If you choose to read it, enjoy. :)

                      Oh my god, you’re right. Both characters could have been much more fleshed out but were killed without hesitation. Ugh. :(

                      What I found amusing about the girl friend thing was how they named the character Amy Pond, after the companion in Doctor Who. Because a lot of the fans in the fandom are fans of that show too, and have been pushing for a crossover. When they showed the footage of that episode at Comic Con, everyone squealed when Sam called her Amy Pond. *shrug*

                      lmao the land of good writing. Yes, full speed ahead before they can catch him.

                    • Oh, and you can find a full synopsis/explanation of what the virtual season will be about on the second page.

                    • Hi you two, I need to reply here as i cant reply to your messages either :-(

                      re the Misha article, it reads as a spin on the earlier article where she said that she wanted to work with him again and it wouldnt happen for a while, and im sure someone posted from the convention he was at over the weekend he hadnt been contacted about returning, until he is on the screen again I am assuming its all spin to get us watching

                      Re the time travel episode I mean the one is season 5 where anna wants to kill sam, they end up in the past and Castiel is very injured from it, and when the brothers talk its like Dean doesnt really care hes served his purpose for the week, thats all he needs to do, and then at then at the end when he returns and passes out Dean seems cross

                      There are too many wasted characters on this show

                      Meg I think cos she was so close to lucifer hates that crowley tried to stop him, but thats never made clear, also wouldnt crowley love lucifer as he was part of that crowd, which is why he was king of the cross roads in season 5, and its little things like that that bug me, not really understanding the characters that appear more than once, Meg is really fun, her and crowley having a hell hound show down would be fun

                      I would loved them to have fleshed out the characters they have rather than dragging back old characters I have forgotten every so often, like gwen, and no idea what the point of samuel campbell was, he was very dislikeable and just died I think, so clearly his purpose was served

  5. As a fan, I will give it more time, since I’ll be watching every episode anyway. I do hope they have individual episodes to give us breaks, like the first few season did. And oddball ones like when Sam and Dean broke the third wall to play Jensen and Jared.

  6. I think this series has started with a bang, loved both episodes it’s very dark but I really like how fast things are happening.

  7. After the first 2 episodes, it seems to me that they are right back on the same formula as last season… They’re setting up these first episodes as plot devices that drive the season and basically clean it up at the end.

    Now, I defended last season even though it broke from the traditional storytelling that had been established, but they can’t go back to that same formula this year.

    • I spent a great deal of time complaining about season 6, but with Friday’s episode, I feel like I have my old beloved Supernatural back! I thought it was fast-paced (SO welcome after how season 6 spun out at a grindingly slow speed) and it surprised me…which is hard to do after all these years of watching the show. I loved this episode and I haven’t said that about a new Supernatural in quite awhile. It was NEW, I felt; new uncharted monsters that look like they might be much better-developed than the poor development of the “Eve” character last season…I finally saw the emotion that has been missing from the show (between Sam & Dean and in Dean’s message to Bobby)…I thought it was a great one and I’m so glad the show is still as amazing as I know it can be.

  8. I am loving season 7. I’d lost hope over most of season 5 and then 6 but I’m getting excited about where this can go. The tone of this season feels different than anything we’ve seen before on Supernatural. Kind of a “post apocalyptic zombie survival” feel that I’m loving.

    I’m really hoping for some good stand alone episodes too, I felt the whole Angel/King of Hell story line was taking over, I like in Supernatural what I loved in the X-Files: likeable leads with great story lines and a few scares. I’m really looking forward to what’s to come!

  9. I thought the first two episodes of Season 7 were awesome. I am not convinced that Cas is dead. True his vessel exploded unerneath the water when the leviavithan broke free, but that doesn’t mean that Cas is gone. Perhaps, they could find another actor/actoress to play the role. Remember Jimmy (Cas’s vessel) had a daughter who was chosen to be a vessel as it is a special bloodline going back to Creatiom/Adam & Eve

  10. so far so good for s7!

  11. I liked both episodes. Both were well done but I’m not typing a whole page over it. The show in my opinion is getting better and I am allowed my opinion. Please don’t respond with any smart alec comments. Bullys bore me

    • lol. Smart alec comment? A bully? Since when am I a bully? I explained my opinion in detail, and then someone told me to “just give it up”. So then I responded why that comment is pointless and why I wrote the original comment in the first place. That doesn’t make me a bully. That’s judgmental of you. :/

      I’m perfectly fine with you having your opinion. And I’m not expecting you to “type a page” about your opinion. If you want to join in a discussion, then that’s another thing. But most people aren’t doing so, and that’s FINE. I’m not expecting people to do so. Jesus Christ people.

  12. Not a reply button in sight.

    I never really got the whole thing with Meg being Azazel’s daughter. Maybe I wasn’t paying attention, but how can demons even have kids? Unless he had her while he was alive? Huh. Regardless, I agree. I don’t understand why they would even bother to mention that detail if they weren’t going to delve deeper into their relationship.

    It kind of sounds like Misha is just going to come back for an episode as Jimmy’s ghost or something disappointing like that. Cas might really be gone. If that’s true, and they didn’t even have enough respect to give him a real death… that’s just bad. Really bad. I guess they wanted his death to be vague so as to keep viewers sticking around as long as possible. That’s more than bad. That is low. Feeling around in the couch for spare change low. Lower than that. Yuck. But at least that means Misha will be able to move on to better things.

    I know. It’s so annoying to see Dean repeatedly turn his back on basically the whole world because he can’t exist in any other context that doesn’t include Sam. It limits his character so drastically. If a fully developed character is a tree, Dean’s a spindly little Bonsai in a teacup. It’s painful to watch.

    I’ve always really wanted to like Sam. He’s much smarter than Dean. Much more in tune. And he doesn’t have the same kind of obsession with Dean that Dean has with him. Maybe him wanting to be normal is what I don’t like. Not that I don’t understand it, but I guess I feel like he just sort of needs to get over it already. Maybe Sam has an obsession with normality in the same way that Dean has an obsession with him. They both need to move on.

    Wasn’t Ash a computer nerd? They’re really going to recycle that? And when they’re through with him, they’ll most likely kill him off too. Wow. It’s very hard not to be pessimistic about this show.

    I wish I wanted to go into the TV/film business. I just can’t imagine having to deal with so many special interests imposing on your creativity all the time. It’s bad enough writing a book and trying to get it published. I lack patience. But you should definitely go for it. There aren’t enough people up there who are thinking very critically about what they put out, and it’s great to think of there being people who actually give a crap about storytelling being in charge.

    Thanks for the link. I’ll definitely check that out pronto. I’ve been meaning to start reading some fan fiction for ages but never got around to it. I think maybe because it can be difficult to find the kind that has real content, not, you know… the other kind.

    I don’t get it. It’s not like she had anything much in common with Doctor Who’s Amy. They’re just repeating a name. Am I missing something? =/

    I don’t understand why Meg would like Lucifer but Crowley wouldn’t. Although it’s difficult to think of Crowley as part of a crowd — even a Satan-loving one. Maybe it’s a personal thing? It seems like there’s a whole lot more to the character than we’ve seen. I mean, he was the only demon we know of who didn’t trust Lucifer. There are a lot of demons. Why him? And why not Meg? She seemed just as intelligent. sigh

    The writers definitely do seem to have a policy of quantity over quality when it comes to characters. I too disliked Samuel. I still don’t understand the point of that whole plot.

    • Didnt Crowley work for Lilth? who was Lucifer’s first, thats why him not loving lucifer confuses me, and why Meg’s current quest to kill crowley, that was strange

      Also how comes Crowley knew so much about what was going on in heaven, when they had no idea who raised Dean in season 4, I mean Crowley knew Castiel was in trouble so offered him the deal, which has always made me question is crowley really a demon? I go though phases of thinking he could be something else, some times I wonder if hes God, but dont think that since s7 started

      Also why does everyone call Castiel “Cass”, not just the humans, but Anna, Crowley, it just seems strange, as hes never refered to himself as such, I get the humans calling him it as Jared couldnt say it right so the brothers would have said hes cass, so bobby and jo and ellen would call him such, and why isnt Crowley called Cro or somthing like that, as he is the brothers new BFF

      I dont get the Amy Pond reference, seemed really lame to me, and as I cant stand the Dr who version it didnt make me overly keen on the episode

      I keep hoping that Misha will be the big bad at the end of the season, but do feel that he wont, watching him talk about it at the convention last weekend, he looks very sad talking about SN as if its in the past very much so

      I am wondering if this big secret about Dean is just he killed that girl last week, i am not impressed

      Im also far from keen about Jo being back this week, am wondering if I will manage more than 17 mins this week, and if this is the end of deans plot and looking after Sammy will be his focus again

      I seriously cant work out why i never warmed to Sam, its strange, 7 seasons in and I dont feel that much for him, which i guess is why I like Castiel, cos I really feel for him, in s4 when he starts to question everything, and s5 when hes so lost, cut off from heaven, heart broken by god leaving, and losing his powers so close to spiralling down, and he still does whats best for the boys, I dont overly like bobby, think he is pretty selfish and not the best for the boys

      There are far too many characters drifting in and out, i often have to wiki them to work out who they are

      • anarrei:

        Yeah it was pointless.

        And yeah, I agree. It’s hard to say whether Cas will come back. It depends on whether or not the writers are willing to listen to criticism and correct their mistakes, so I don’t have much hope.

        I can hardly stand to watch Dean on screen anymore.

        And it’s almost as hard watching Sammy, because he’s a miserable human being tortured for no reason, and I love him. I can see why you don’t though, and that’s cool.

        Yeah, it sounds like they’re recycling Ash. You know what else they’re recycling? The skins/police subplot from seasons 1 and 2. In episode 6 of this season, entitled Slash Fiction, apparently two monsters will shape themselves so they look exactly like Sam and Dean (I forget the details of what they are), and commit crimes, and then because of that, the brothers will find themselves on the run from the government as well.

        Thanks. :) Yeah that’s what worried me too. I feel like since TV and film is catered to the masses that it would be pretty much impossible to have any creative freedom. If anything I’d rather start with self published web content– that seems to be where the future is going, and you have complete creative freedom. *shrug* Idk.


        Oh, I just meant that calling her that was meant to appeal to the fans. Probably to distract them from how they treated the character.


        Crowley worked against Lucifer, because he believed that once he was done destroying the human race, the demons would be next. Survival was his motivation.

        I just assumed that he would naturally know, because it seems obvious that once heaven no longer had Michael, Raphael would rule. And I guess Crowley assumed that Cas would not be happy with that, so he approached him to work with him. But that is a bit loose, I agree. It’s interesting, because at one convention several months ago Mark Sheppard that Crowley might not be a demon, because we’ve never seen him flash red eyes. So there are some theories that he’s an angel or something. But who knows. *shrugs*

        Idk. I always thought it was weird that people who were not his friends called him Cas.

        Dean’s secret… well, some people believe it’s the girl he killed, some people believe it’s something else. There’s an episode in season 1, Bloody Mary I believe, if you had a deep dark secret, your eyes would bleed. And Dean’s bled. But we never learned what his secret was. Eric Kripke confirmed at some con in 2008 that Dean has a dark secret… but I don’t get why that secret wasn’t told in his 5 year planned story. *shrugs* So maybe that secret is what the show is talking about.

        • I think we are all reading too much in to Crowley, I agree Castiel would know hes a demon, cos Anna could see their true faces, so would know if he was or wasnt, assuming the writer hadnt forgotten that

          I think judging by what Misha’s said Castiel became Cass cos people kept saying Castiel wrong, namely Jared who called him Cas-steel (listen s5 ep2), but that doesnt make sense that he has that nick name from everyone

          Im painfully rusty on anything before s4 to be honest so dont remember Ash too well

          The title Slash fiction sounds great, you know it wont live up to that image

          I dont remember that about dean at all, I wonder what it can be, 2008 was before he went to hell, so it cant be anything in hell, and hes done so many nasty things I cant image anything that bad to be a secret

      • Ellie:
        I doubt Crowley would enjoy working for Lillith, being a power-obsessed demon and all. And if he did, that doesn’t necessarily mean he wouldn’t still mistrust Lucifer. I think the thing about Crowley is that he doesn’t trust anyone. He just plays the game. You’d kind of think that would be how all demons behave, but like I said he was the only one we know of who wasn’t kissing Lucifer’s boots. Remember the whole demonic religious thing? They worshipped Lucifer like a god. Why? And why wouldn’t Crowley? Is it even possible he could be that much smarter? It just doesn’t make sense. You’re probably right about reading too much into it, though. He’s a plot device just like all the characters, and the writers don’t explain this stuff because they don’t care about consistency.

        I very much doubt he’s God. Maybe his eyes are pink or purple or something and he’s embarrassed to flash them. Idk xD They probably just didn’t bother with the cg for whatever unimportant reason. If they made him into something other than a demon they would be retconning a lot. I think the only reason his demon status is fuzzy is (again) laziness on the writer’s part. And as far as him knowing about Cas I think it goes back to him just seeming to know everything. Which is funny if you think about it, because it’s probably mainly because of this that some people think he’s God. Which goes to show just how insanely off-base the writers are.

        Nicknames are strange things. I think it has more to do with linguistics than anything else.

        I know what you mean. Castiel is just such a sympathetic character, much more so than any other on the show. Even putting aside what he meant (or should have meant) to Sam and Dean, he was worth keeping on just for how awesome he is all on his own. I think killing him off in the manner that they did was the single most horrible thing they could possibly have done. He should have at least become human.

        There are a few things I’m curious about, but I doubt I’ll be watching every minute of every episode from now on. I can’t tolerate the monster of the week ones. Basically, all I want to know is what happens to Cas and Crowley. And maybe Jo. Pretty much everything else sounds horribly predictable.

        The writers don’t seem at all regretful about anything, do they? They’re just oblivious.

        It might not be Sam’s fault. I have a bad habit of appreciating antagonists more than protagonists. I think it’s my way of rebelling against what the show is intending for me to feel. To this day I am the only person I know of who was sad when Captain Hook got eaten by the crocodile. It’s weird. I’m aware.

        Jeez. The show is called Supernatural. They literally are not constrained by reality. You’d think they could come up with something new. Or they could just run some actual slash fiction. That would have more creative value. And haven’t they been on the run from the government before?

        It’s very sad what storytelling has turned into these days. It used to be about passing on ideas and values and having intergenerational dialogue. Now it’s just mindless entertainment for people so tired of being bored with themselves and their little mechanical lives that they sacrifice all critical thought just to forget about everything important for a while. I think self-publishing/remix/internet culture is starting to really change that though. It’s less about consuming, more about producing and participating. There’s hope.

        And I am reading that fan fiction. As soon as I finish cleaning the gutters. And hanging up the Halloween crap. Ugh.

        • I find it really sad watching Misha at conventions trying to explain that Castiel is dead, cos killing off a loved character just doesnt happen in normal shows unless the actor/actress wants to leave, I cant think of any show that has done it bar buffy when Angel left, but to be fair it was needed he and buffy had ended their story and he got his own show that way. Its just crazy there were a million things that could have been done with the character. I stick with my view of if its to make the show just about the brother only Bobby needs to die as well, he is not a brother.

          I am so bugged as to how Crowley who didnt know angels existed at the start of season 4 knows all about the war in heaven etc, and enough to know Castiel’s nick name, knows Castiel has been brought back by god etc, I find this a massive jump from the start of season 4

          I mostly want to have our season 4 Dean back, where he wasnt just cruel for the sake of it, cos watching mommy dearest he was pretty out of order to Castiel, and has been rude to everyone for no reason, I have no idea why they bother with him, i would have given up on him and decided hes rude and nasty for no reason and why should I help him, clealry Sam needs him cos they cant have other friends or sleep away from each other for more than 5 mins

          I used to think that Supernatural was pretty in tune with the fans, after all Castiel became a regular because the fans loved him, Crowley seems to stay around for the same reasons, but this season im seriously questioning if they have any idea what the fans want, every board has been 90% bring Castiel back, and a lot of people unhappy about what happened to him, yet the writers are sure they are correct, im wondering if the viewers will dip below 1mil by then end of the 1st half of the season

          • I completely agree. Castiel’s story had hardly even begun. It definitely wasn’t time for it to end. Angel’s exit makes sense because like you said his and Buffy’s relationship had run its course and he got to continue his own story. Cas and Dean especially have a ton of things to address, let alone resolve. And Cas as a character had only barely reached his climax as Godstiel. It’s just so sad. I can’t imagine how they could care so much about keeping it about the brothers and so little about everything else. It doesn’t even make any sense. They’re only harming Sam and Dean’s development by limiting them to each other.

            Bobby I think is still around because he makes things convenient. If the writers need an alternative opinion to be voiced, he’s there. If the writers need the brothers to find some information on something, he’s there. If they need a quick rescuing, he’s there. He’s like the embodiment of their laziness. Plus he’s named after the executive producer so maybe there’s some sentimentality there.

            Yeah. It is annoying. Like Bobby and pretty much every other secondary character, I think Crowley is another character who is just a matter of convenience to the writers. Maybe that has something to do with why they killed off Cas. They just didn’t need him anymore. It would have been more trouble than it was worth to them to develop him, because what he was worth to them had very little to do with him as a character and more to do with him as a plot device. This is why I’m worried about what they’re going to do with Crowley. They’re using him over and over to “advance” the plots, but we never get any explanation as to why he does anything he does. As soon as they think he isn’t worth the effort… Along will come the chopping block. God. I hate these people.

            I’m finding Dean very unsympathetic these days too. The way he treated Cas especially last season was cruel and confusing. It would make sense if it were at least part of the reason Cas went dark side. He was very fragile, and after rebelling from everything he had known (because of Dean) what he needed most then was someone to be understanding and helpful. Not pointlessly demanding and vitriolic.

            I can’t imagine they don’t realize what the fans want to some degree. After all, they’re making Cas’s death intentionally vague to drag it out and keep viewers around as long as possible. They just think they know better. Which they don’t. They don’t have the humility or self-awareness to understand what they’re doing. If the show’s ratings and viewership tanks, they’ll deserve what they get because they got fair warning.

            • Now this is interesting http://www.spoilertv.com/2011/10/2011-stv-character-competition-winner.html
              Castiel beat Dean when they were up against each other

              I am about to attempt this weeks episode though my understanding is its people dean feels guilty for, so sam for dragging him back into the hunting world, Jo cos she was young and died for him etc, surely of all people to feel guilty for Castiel is the main one, died 3 times, his alter ego Misha dies because they are being hunted, yet he shows no concern for him, I would have said Castiel was more worthy of deans guilt than Jo, he gave up everything for Dean, and because of dean

              I get what you are saying about bobby, I just think the arguement is we want it to be the 2 brothers so get rid of the angel, its not the 2 brothers its the 2 brothers and bobby, so I can see why people are annoyed because you cant kill 1 character and keep another ignoring the reason for killing the 1st character off

              Crowley will be over used, will be the new BFF and fill the space left by Castiel its the only clear way the writers can get the brothers some help when needed

              im sure i will write again after the ep :-)

              • I agree with what you guys have said.

                I watched the fourth episode. It has some nice moments (mostly involving Jo), but it was still pretty bad. The development for Sam (which I don’t spoil just in case) didn’t make any sense, and felt like a quick, easy way for the writers to abandon a plot line. A lot of Dean’s guilt crisis was not well written (and Cas didn’t even get one clip in the guilt flashback– he continues to be shunned even more), and Bobby was once again used as a deus ex machina (and this time it was especially stupid because 1) his house burned down, so where would he get information driving over the country, and 2) Osiris is a GOD, gods that old should be able to killed on a sidewalk like it was nothing). *sigh* So awful.

                • Well given they got rid of a very powerful insane God by making him have a change of heart, just in time, Osiris was easy to kill because he was just a plot device
                  I can see Deans plot is being a depressive who drunks until someone (hopefully Misha) talks sense into him and saves him from the edge

                  SN is dark and depressing, and not fun any more, i didnt laugh at any of the jokes this week, re watched s7 ep1 and was laughing loads, i think think thay have gone far too dark this time

                  • I barely made it through the last episode. I’m sure there are so many people that Dean could (and should) feel guilty about that I’ve forgotten, but there are a few I’m thinking of off the top of my head right now that were far more deserving of recognition than Jo or Sam. Obviously Cas is the first. He literally JUST died. Probably the most loved character by fans, the most important to the Winchester’s, and on top of being killed off for no reason, not even getting a real send-off, the impact of his death not even being realized, he gets completely ignored in an episode that should have been ABOUT him, if it was about guilt. Ugh.

                    You’re right about Bobby of course. I just imagine that’s how the writers are justifying it in their foggy little minds.

                    I’m not really sure how I feel about Jo in this episode. On the one hand, it was nice to see Dean feeling bad about something involving her, but on the other I’m not so sure it was right that he felt guilty about letting her and helping her do what she wanted and decided. I think he should have felt bad about trying to exploit their power-imbalanced relationship. I think this is why the hand-on-cheek “It’s not your fault.” scene kinda rubbed me the wrong way.

                    You’re right. Everything seemed so rushed and poorly thought out. Something I thought was funny was when I first saw their hotel room or whatever it was, my first thought was “Why is there an oven? I’ve never seen an oven in a hotel room.” It disturbed me greatly all through the episode. Then when I saw the end I just started laughing. lol

                    Yeah, I though that was really insulting how they used and disposed of Osiris. Osiris should be a BIG deal. He’s the god of the underworld. But of course he gets one episode in which he’s stabbed outside a bar, while it’s the Abrahamic god that gets to be all omnipotent and mysterious. Nice.

                    Oh, by the way I’ve been reading Redemption Road voraciously. I can’t tell you how refreshingly magnificent it is. I truly think the TV writers of SPN should immediately hand over all rights and responsibilities of the show to these people. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The dream episode almost made me tear up. I never do that.

                    • I think that episode could have been brilliant and viewing figures suggest that a lot of people were keen and excited about it, yet 1.6 mil is not great and we are coming towards teh end of the little batch of episodes clearly inspired to keep people watching after castiel went, I mean a Jensen Directed ep, and Dean centric ep, and a bunch of buffy actors guest staring, i think eps 6-8 will be interesting to see how they fair with viewers cos there are only so many tricks you can use.

                      Goodness i get side tracked easily lol, I was saying it could have been brilliant, but was too slow for the build up, we didnt need 3 people with the issue and the car thing was rather daft, I really do think a 2 parter with Jo being the 1st witness, maybe have a long talk about how her death was because of helping the boys but she chose the life, with dean questioning if it was his fault and her reasuring him no, Sam is a poor option to call, I would have Castiel or John Winchester called as well as he gave himself to save dean, surely thats a whole load of guilt there, being the reason for your fathers death, even bobby, he sold his soul to help out with the boys quest, he ended up in a wheelchair for dean

                      It could have been brilliant, it wasnt, im not even fussed about this weeks one as i dont really like spike or cordelia, and both as actors annoy me

                    • Sorry about my super late reply.

                      Yeah the episode was very redundant. And yeah, why wasn’t Bobby called? Dean should feel more guilt about him than Jo and Amy. Jo’s death was never in any way Dean’s fault. Jo was not inspired to be a hunter from Dean, she was motivated by her dad. But the show tried to make it seem otherwise.

                      The one that aired last week with the Buffy stars was pretty bad. Some of the banter between the two guests was nice and funny, but… *sigh* haha.

                    • Oh goodie! :) I’m so glad you’re enjoying Redemption Road, I am as well.

                      I agree with everything you said. I mean, there are a couple of other episodes featuring gods from other mythologies, but most of the time they were dealt with well. In the season 5 one, Lucifer killed them all, which is understandable, because Lucifer is powerful. But with Osiris, and even the god of truth in season 6 (I don’t remember who she is), they were killed so easily. And they were only used as plot devices for brotherly angst. Truth, for revealing that Sam is substantially “different”, and Osiris for setting up Dean’s guilt (which is so far going absolutely nowhere). Osiris is one of my personal favorite gods too. *sigh* I like the actor who played him.

                      Hahaha. Reading what you wrote about the oven made me laugh. I didn’t notice it when I watched it.

                      I agree about the Castiel thing.

                      Oh! In the beginning of the fifth episode, the one that just aired, Dean was having a nightmare and the show showed quick visual flashes of people Dean felt guilty about. Cas was in a couple of clips, as was Amy and some other people. But I just. That doesn’t COUNT!!! You can’t just slip in a three second visual cue and expect us to believe that you know what you’re doing. It was so lazy. I bet that it wasn’t written in the script but was just put in by the editors.

  13. I’m sorry too… In my defense my email was putting comment notifications in the spam folder.

    Yeah, I am curious to see how people react long-term to the (non)direction the show is going in now. I’m hoping people stop watching so there will at least be a chance the writers will realize their mistakes and try to rectify what they can, but so many people seem to think everything is just fine and dandy. I mean, the comment section we’ve co-opted as our forum is on a freaking positive review of the very episode that Cas was killed off in! Is it just me or do people seem way too easy to please?

    I actually really enjoyed Carpenter and Marsters on Buffy, but I thought their SPN characters were very bland and irritating. I wasn’t surprised by this. Lately, the writers seem to have a reverse King Midas affect on everything they touch.


    There were a lot of people more deserving of Dean’s guilt than Jo or Amy. It really annoyed me that Amy was one of the three considering she had just been introduced out of nowhere to create some cheap brotherly conflict, while so many older and more important characters who’ve been abandoned were just ignored.

    It’s kind of funny that the most recent Redemption episode is centered around Dean’s guilt also. I don’t know if it was a coincidence or not, and I won’t give away any spoilers just in case you haven’t read it, but they handled the whole thing a million times better. And there was a point to bringing up the past now and making Dean suffer from it other than just writerly laziness and sadism. They’re actually going somewhere with all of it, and his guilt has an important part to play. SPN is really lacking this.

    I am seriously impressed by RR. They handle everything so much more gracefully. I think I’m going to pretend that it’s canon from now on. The only way SPN can win back my allegiance is through cookies and Destiel.

    I thought it was pretty insulting when Lucifer killed all those gods. I forget who was there, but I don’t see why Lucifer would be so much more powerful he could take all of them out at once. I mean, Kali is the goddess of destruction. It just didn’t seem necessary.

    I agree about Osiris and Veritas. They were trainwrecks. It’s one thing to use and abandon your own characters, it’s another to do it to important mythical/religious figures. They deserve more respect than that.

    You’re kidding?! I didn’t even catch that. That’s just… ugh. It’s worse than not acknowledging Castiel’s absence at all. Ick.

    I don’t really know what to say about the latest episode. I now know the meaning of the word “uvula”. Looks like Crowley is going to be joining TFW in some capacity since they have a common enemy.

    • If Crowley becomes their new BFF how is that making it just the brothers? This annoys me no end kill Castiel who everyone loves (part of me really wonders if Misha did something wrong on the set or something now cos it does just seem a crazy decision and comments from his convention a few days ago in England suggest that he hasnt been contacted about returning)
      just to replace him with a witch, crowley and goodness knows what else

      I hated this weeks ep cos it was over so quick they were in such a massive pickle, then it was all fixed, surely 3-4 episodes of them being really under ground and hiding from everyone would be a much better plot that 25 mins of them being in danger

      I just cant be bothered with SN at the mo its a hypocritcal, and I never want to watch bobby with a love interest, 3 sexy boys and they make the romantic story with the dirty old man