Michael Dorn Confirms He’s Working on a ‘Star Trek: Captain Worf’ TV Series

Published 2 years ago by , Updated October 22nd, 2013 at 5:49 pm,

star trek worf tv show Michael Dorn Confirms Hes Working on a Star Trek: Captain Worf TV Series

Geek favorites Bryan Fuller and Bryan Singer have been forthcoming about their hopes for bringing Star Trek back to the small screen, after the release of J.J. Abrams’ elusive sequel to his Trek movie reboot next summer. However, it turns out those two aren’t the only ones with big dreams about a new TV series set in that sci-fi universe – Michael Dorn is also taking steps to reprise his signature Trek role on a spinoff, tentatively titled Star Trek: Captain Worf.

Worf, Son of Mogh, of course, is the first Klingon main character on a Star Trek TV series. He appeared on The Next Generation throughout its seven-season run, then became a Deep Space Nine regular for its last four seasons. Dorn portrayed Worf in all four Next Generation films; in addition, he played Worf’s grandfather, Colonel Worf, in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.

Rumors and reports about a prospective Worf spinoff began circulating earlier this year – which, perhaps not-so-coincidentally, marks the 25th anniversary of The Next Generation. Trek News caught up with recently with Dorn, who gave them the following exclusive “scoop” on the project:

“I had come up with the idea because I love [Worf] and I think he’s a character that hasn’t been fully developed and hasn’t been fully realized. Once I started thinking about it, it became obvious to me that I wanted to at least put it out there, which I have, and the response has been pretty amazing. We’ve been contacted by different individuals–I can’t say who and all that–about wanting to come on board and be part of this. “

Deep Space Nine concluded with Worf being made Federation ambassador to the Klingon homeworld, Qo’noS. An official prequel comic book to Abrams’ Trek reboot featured Worf as a Klingon Empire General, who battles the Romulan Captain Nero (Eric Bana, in Abrams’ film). Worf sustained life-threatening injuries during the encounter, but it was indicated he was still alive by the story’s conclusion.

However, the overlap between events on DS9 and the Star Trek film continuity has always been kind of fuzzy; hence, it stands to reason that could also hold true for a Worf spinoff and the post-reboot movies. Dorn’s in the same boat of uncertainty as Fuller and Singer, when it comes to how his plans are affected by Abrams’ films – as he put it, “there’s all the political stuff going on with the new movies with J.J. Abrams and Paramount and all that stuff, which I have no clue about and what it all entails, but that’s where it is right now.”

star trek worf Michael Dorn Confirms Hes Working on a Star Trek: Captain Worf TV Series

The in-progress subtitle Captain Worf is open to interpretation, as far as indications for when, exactly, the TV series could take place. Such a Star Trek spinoff would, for certain, retain the ensemble format of its predecessors to some degree – with a focus on the adventures of Worf and a new group of space explorers. Morever, Dorn says the show isn’t so much a pipe dream as one might think (at first):

“Interestingly enough it has gotten traction. I was very surprised, I was on a movie not too long ago, where one of the producers was basically lobbying to be part of it. He was like “Michael, I’d love to write it, if you haven’t.” So at this point, my agents and my manager are looking at all the avenues and trying to figure out which is the best one. My agent and manager have been in the business for awhile, so they’re very savvy about where to start and how to get it going. Like I said, in this business you never know and I’ve been through pitching things and I never want to do that again [laughs]. It’s pretty brutal, but definitely I think once again, if Paramount or CBS or anybody thinks this is a viable thing, they’ll jump on it.”

Worf’s Klingon manner and instincts often put him at odds with his fellow officers on The Next Generation, as hilariously highlighted in this 15-minute compilation video; still, there were a few episodes on DS9 that explored Worf’s personal sense of duty and honor beyond the surface level. Nonetheless, there does remain room for further development of the character – even given the substantial amount of backstory already in place for Worf.

However, as Dorn mentions above, the Star Trek: Captain Worf television series is far from getting an official greenlight right now. Nevertheless, we will keep you up-to-date on the situation as more information is released (or Dorn continues to talk about it).

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Source: Trek News [via Moviehole]

TAGS: star trek
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  1. While I personally would love to see this come about… Michael Dorn pitched this four or 5 years ago to the studio execs. At that time he was told to come up with a script. I read a couple months ago that Michael had an interview, at a Con or somewhere, last year where he said that the show was dead and was not being pursued any longer.

    I wish websites as well as news channels did more research and substantiate claims before posting or broadcasting like you were taught in college . It’s no a wonder why Americans are getting dumber, everyone believes the first thing they read or hear and doesn’t get the information from multiple reliable sources to confirm anything!

    • Thank you for the information. Kind of a disappointment.

    • THIS.

      And, why haven’t we heard from anybody else (at CBS and Paramount)about this for months now?

      • Maybe because as several of the posters have noted on this thread, the project died two years ago?

  2. There’s no such thing as a subspace supernova that moves faster than light and gains energy — nor is it part of any theory. Anywhere. Inventing a b******* backstory for a comic doesn’t make it science either (they’ve done the same thing in the comics to explain why Khan isn’t Indian — or Ricardo Montalban), It’s fine, if it works, but it’s not science. Sure, Orci mentions QM in chatter with fans — that still doesn’t mean that anything in the movie fits actual theories. It’s a story device. They needed a parallel universe so they got one.

    Berman-Trek used science-y words, like tachyon, all then time to make plots work.

    People who understand science better than me (ex. Phil Plait) called b******* on Star Trek’s supernova. And a bit of technobabble in comic retcon doesn’t change it (it was released before the movie but written long after Star Trek’s script). I’m not saying it invalidates the movie (most of Trek science, like other scifi space science, is make-believe with, at best, a few actual-science words as frosting) — but if you think Orci-Trek adheres to actual science any more than previous incarnations, well, you’re wrong. Orci himself has said as much about the supernova (although he also joked that anything could be possible with string theory).

    Like I said, it doesn’t wreck the movie, but it ain’t science, It’s not even Fourth grade science. And it certainly takes one out of the movie for that few seconds — “wait a minute, a supernova doesn’t travel faster than light, so why the urgency and why didn’t they pick something else? oh yeah, because story.”

    There were a couple other lines that would have required just a trip to wikipedia or lunch with a physicist to fix — the source of magnetic interference at Titan, for example. Does it matter at the end of the day? Not really, but it would be nice for the actual physics in Trek to be accurate if there’s no story reason for it not to be.

    And come on, rampant speculation about superblood and genetic engineering isn’t science either. The argument that “it makes sense that (people will have healing powers, will turn into potatoes on command, will shoot rainbows out of their eyes” what have you)” still doesn’t make magic resurrection blood possible. You know that. It’s not real — and that’s totally fine. But it still ain’t science. It’s an invention for the story — and it also sucks the drama out of Kirk’s death.

    Is there a reason, scientific or otherwise, why you’re so demeaning and defensive to anyone who disagrees with your points?

    Pulling words out of the dictionary isn’t going to change how science views how supernova works. And it’s not going to make Trek scientifically accurate.

    It’s not science. That puts them on a level playing field with nearly all other Trek. You can still enjoy them — I do — but don’t pull out “they’re better because of science!” argument because it’s just entirely incorrect.

    • And……………..AGAIN Ladies and Gentlemen, the subject confuses a STORY ELEMENT with the CORNERSTONE of the story which was the Quantum Event that was the destruction of the USS Kelvin. It’s cute how you are terrified of the TRUTH.

      Quantum Mechanics is the basis for the creation of this new Parallel Universe. Orci said so BEFORE the film was released. Anyone paying attention knew this. But I suppose its easier to pretend THAT basis for the creation of the new Parallel Universe isn’t what science DEMANDS that it is (as Quantum Mechanics shows why stories like that in “ST IV: The Voyage Home” is NONSENSE.

      It’s also frankly hilarious how the Star Trek Countdown story is a “Retcon”……..even though it came out MONTHS before the movie did. Wait, don’t tell me: “Precon”????

      Funnier still, the bit about Khan. Tell us, oh wise one, was Malik an Arab in ST:Enterprise? He was one of Khan’s Augment brothers. His name is Arabic. Yet he was………….a WHITE guy. Even better is that people like you ignore the FACT that Ricardo Montalban was ALSO a WHITE GUY who Roddenberry and Company put in BROWN FACE for Space Seed. So Into Darkness skips the Brown Face, but now that’s somehow a “bad thing”?

      You again demonstrate you don’t really understand the Augments very well. I suggest you go back and rewatch the Augments episodes from ST:Enterprise and then tell me that it is somehow “Crazy Town” to believe that when designing a SUPER HUMAN from scratch, you’d need to design his blood to rapidly attack damaged cellular tissue and repair it even beyond what we know Platelet Rich Plasma Therapy does today.

      It’s common sense, but when one doesn’t like the answer, it’s easier to pretend it doesn’t exist.

      Just any FYI: I’m a Medic. Been one for 20 years. So if you think I’m pulling words out of a dictionary, you demonstrating even more foolishness than you previously have.

      How this works is: You post nonsense, I reply.

      So you keep doubling/tripling down on clumsily trying to make a never before seen type of supernova being the foundation/cornerstone of the story while ignoring the fact it was a story element, while QUANTUM MECHANICS and it’s QUANTUM EVENT is what made these stories different than previous Trek story numbskullery.

      This isn’t my first rodeo, we can play this game as long as you like.

      • Ricardo Montalban was not even close to “white…” He was Mexican, and well known in his early career for playing a wide range of ethnic groups. Please stay away from any injectable medications. Retcon, indeed…

        • Uh, I think you need to do some research kid. Ricardo Montalban was the child of two SPANIARD CAUCASIANS. One being born in Mexico doesn’t change one’s DNA. Perhaps it was his jazzy accent that got you confused? He was the son of Spanish immigrants Ricarda Merino and Jenaro Montalbán. Please don’t try commenting on things of which you are tragically misinformed.

          “Retcon” Indeed.

        • Perhaps a quick google of “Castilian Spaniards” (of which BOTH of Montalban’s parents were) would help you achieve an education on the subject?

        • Um maybe you didnt know, Mexicans are white. They are listed as white in every single legal form there is. Hence why black people hate George Zimmerman so much, he is a mexican, and he is white!

    • Whoa there Jack!, It’s just a TV show with actors and scripts. Science fiction shows have been making up various names for things in space for as long as I can remember and I’m 73. Once the episode is through…the set goes dark, the actors go home and everyone relaxes which is what you should do. Don’t take everything so seriously. You’re starting to sound like Neil DeGrasse Tyson. Loosen up a bit. It’s just a TV show.

  3. …during each episode, Worf will say, at least once, “Maybe today is a good day to die!” And, after a season of that, viewers will yell at their TV’s, “Please! Just DIE already!” :-)

    • I’m thinking drinking every time the word honor gets uttered would be a decent way to get blotto fast.

  4. I would love to watch a TV series where Worf is the captain. I think he is a super character.

  5. Have there ever been any re-runs of Deep Space 9? I thought that show was pretty good.

    • Well you know there are completed DVD boxsets of Star Trek Enterprise, Star Trek Voyager, Star Trek TNG, Star Trek TOS, and Star Trek The Animated Series. No need to wait for reruns that also play the episodes in random order. They also include extra features such as interviews, behind the scenes etc. I have them all!

    • The new Blurays of ST:TNG with the new special effects, 7.1 Surround Sound and 1080p picture are absolutely amazing. Waiting for them to start a new Bluray edition of ST:DS9, with what they were able to do with redoing ST:TNG, the Dominion War on DS9 will look and sound unbelievably good.

      Till then, you can watch ST:TOS, ST:TAS, ST:TNG original edition, ST:DS9, ST:V and ST:E on Netflix and Amazon Instant Video (if you’re an Amazon Prime Member)for free over and over again as much as you want to. I’m currently on my 4th pass of ST:E on Netflix (rewatching Stargate:SG1 on Amazon Instant Video). I like working my way thru those old episodes between New Who episodes, they’re better than most tv shows these days with few exceptions.

      • I wanted to get the blue ray edition but was not sure. I got the original ST:TNG DVD when they got out, the pace was killing my budget as they start rolling out like two within a month or so, but if you say it is worth it I might consider it.

        The one I will wait for Blu Ray edition is DS9 as I never got to see the whole series due to air times and work/school. I missed the whole Dominion War part.

        • I’m telling ya, from the crystal clear 1080p (since the show was shot on Film, they were able to convert it to the 1080p digital format with relative ease, which is awesome if you’ve seen shows were they upconvert a program that was shot on video and the poor product it produces) to the brand new Special Effects and 7.1 Surround, it is LITERALLY like watching a new show. I’ve bought them religiously since they started releasing them and I’ve been pleased every time. The little specials and extras that they’re adding to set are nice as well. However, if you have a decent Home Theater, watching the new ST:TNG Blurays is like going from black and white to color. It’s fantastic.

          If you’ve never seen DS9′s Dominion War, Netflix Streaming is like $10 a month. If you have a bluray player hooked to the internet, game system like the PS3 or an Internet Ready tv, those episodes are right there, waiting for you to watch and rewatch (as I have done several dozen times over the years) whenver you select the episode and hit play. Netflix Streaming doesn’t have the redone ST:TNG, but you can watch DS9 to your heart’s content as much as you want, while only paying $10.

    • I have not seen any reruns of DS9 only Voyager which I saw entirely when it first aired.

      • That’s why I say Netflix Streaming is the way to go. I buy the Bluray sets for my collection, something to enjoy watching when I’m 80 years old and don’t have a life, but to get Star Trek whenever I want, I go to the Netflix Streaming. You can watch as much as you want and it only costs you a measly $10 a month.

  6. I could care less. The “Next Generation” is old, dated. It smells like the 80′s. It’s time to more on and do something else. Create a new Star Trek series that’s up to date with the 21st century, not a rehashed Next Generation spin-off with washed out actors who haven’t done much in the last two decades.

  7. Star Trek TV shows should be kept in the original Roddenberry universe. The Abrams Universe shouldn’t even influence it. The Abrams movies should be looked upon as a temporary aberration.

    • ABsolutely!!!!!

  8. this was a april fools joke

  9. I met Micheal Dorn at ECCC last year, and he told me that there was no plan for a Worf show.

  10. I hope they do this!!

  11. i think weather Michael Dorn aka Worf gets his own star trek series or not would not only be up to him but more importantly up to paramount whom seem to own all the copyrights to the gene roddenberry series and films. i personally love Michael Dorn’s acting and Worf character from the star trek next generation series and films, which i turned my family onto back in 1987 when i saw it in tv guide when it was still pocket sized(remember that? i do!) because his character proved to me even an old enemy class of aliens turned ally can be a very good thing. i have not heard a peep about this anywhere in the media, short of here, period. i would love it if Michael Dorn got his own star trek series, because i would definitely watch it, considering i am not much into science fiction tv/films. the only 2 films from the 1990′s i liked are the undiscovered country and nemesis. aside from parts 2, 3, 4, i quit watching when the 2 series merged with generations which i hated due to capt. kirks attitude. but if this is D.I.T.W. then so be it and oh well?!

  12. Bleh. Worf was the second most boring character on TNG. Pushing past Wesley ‘The Boy’ Crusher and only surpassed by his own son, Alexander, as the most boring thing going on that show.

    I’d watch a Captain Riker show. I’d watch a Captain Geordi show. Hell, I’d even watch a Captain Spot show. Captain Worf? No. He was and always will be a side character. It would be like giving Michael Richards or Joey from Friends their own shows… oh.. that happened. And look what happened..

    So ya, don’t bother with this one please.

    • Johnathan Frakes getting his own show? i would most definitely watch it! need to bring in mirina sirtis whom portayed Deanna troi to make it more authentic. Star Trek: Capt. William Riker? bring it on!

      • Frakes??? I’ve watched every Star Trek series and movie ever made, but I wouldn’t watch a Captain Riker series if you paid me.

        • Same, I love ST, but I cringe every time Frakes gives a line.

          • why people loathe johnathan frakes aka Lt. William T. Riker i doubt i’ll ever understand. at this point weather it be a Capt. Worf or Capt. Riker Star Trek series i am already there.

  13. If the show works out, why not havw=e some of the crew members of Voyagerm and, the
    Enterprise–NCC-1701-D(I think that this is the one where Picard was the Captain, that got destroyed, in the last film ever made where, Capt. Kirk is killed.

    As A bonified trekkie, I’d like to see the series take off, for another 10 years @ least. Who knows? It might even tie W/the original series!

  14. “Captain Worf” . . . HeII yes, bring it on!

  15. JJ Abrams ruined the star trek universe.

    Blowing up Vulcan was very uncool.

    We need to mark his movies as a parallel universe and go back to the original universe as far as a tv series. While I would love to see Micheal Dorn play Worf again, I want to see it where we all know the history and see what happens in the original universe. I want to see Janeway, Picard and even Wesley again. But I want to see them in the proper context. Essentially Abrams turned ST into Star Wars. More action based then tech and people based. If TOS had never existed and created Kirk Spock etc and given such a rich history, Abrams Spock and Kirk would just be fast action stars with no real depth. While I think His movies are decent action movies they are definitely not Star Trek!

    • someone seem to have NOT read the memo because (IF you watched the movie) Spock EXPLAINS that because of the Kelvin and Nero coming through that wormhole ..that one event cause everything to change..and it’s been said again and again that JJ Abrahms Star Trek is a Alternative Universe..just like in TOS “Mirror Mirror” where one single event change the course of history..the same thing happen when Nero appear during that point in time and destroy the Kelvin thereby forcing Kirk dad to sacrifice himself to give time for the shuttle to escape..*ugh* ..this is getting rather tiresome to be honest

      • Sorry HT

        I completely understand everything you said. And yes back in the day in TOS and later in DS9 I did enjoy those jumps into the alternate universe where Kirk and Spock were evil. BUT even if Abrams universe is an alternate one it seems to be where Paramount wants to play and the original timeline be damned. I and many other die hard fans want to make sure hte original timeline is preserved and explored even further. Let Abrams make his money with these blockbusters of his and I will likely watch them. But I want to make sure Paramount doesn’t forget its roots. I would like to see what happens after the last TNG movie and Voyager ended. Does B4 become Data? Or perhaps his frame ages like a real human to make Brent Spiner able to at least reprise the role? Even briefly? That universe needs to continue and not be forgotten. I have heard someone had an idea to do exactly that but some time far in the future where the Romulans have fallen and the Federation is falling apart. NOW THAT sounds cool. Use the original timeline history for a new show say 100 years in the future. Rikers and trois kids, Janeway’s and Picards family members, Worf’s family. All the rich history Roddenberry created should be continued. Many many ways to make that work.

        • ht…
          So, you’re saying alternate parallel) universe (like the Mirror Mirror episode, and others) AND going back in time.
          So, in the alternate universe, would it make sense Kirk goes through the Kobayashi Maru exactly how he described he did in STII: Wrath of Khan?
          Is the Federation in the recent movies as hostile as they were depicted in the Mirror, Mirror episode?
          When Spock Prime mindmelds with Kirk in ST:2009, do you recall Kirk asking if ‘he knew his father in the other timeline’ and not talking about any parallel universe? Or did you just disapprove of JJ Abrams’ involvement that you never watched it again?

          • I just think the recreation of Roddenberry’s Trek into something more akin to Star Wars was a mistake. It really was all about shaking things up so much to appease the action loving younger crowd to make money. Nothing wrong with that, but us ‘old fogeys’ love what we had. Ripping it away and replacing the entire universe with another in the franchise id not what I want to see. Even LeVar Burton(Jordi) was in an ET interview stating although he enjoyed the movie he also disliked that Abrams ‘erased’ TNG essentially. I dont realy remember seeing anything saying this was ‘officially’ an alternate universe. Technically it would be or we would have never seen the previous shows. But noone has ever said the original universe would ever be produced again. As a mid fortys fan I hopo to see that again in my lifetime. That is all I am really saying. Abrams vision is fine for what it is, but I will state again it really is not Star Trek in the way Roddenberry created it. Pure hard action is awesome, but it is not the same.

            • Perhaps you missed it, but prior to “Star Trek” (2009), the Star Trek franchise was…..—D-E-A-D—

              After the ST:Enterprise series and the wretched “ST:Nemesis” film, the average fans didn’t care anymore, so Trek was in it’s coffin. What Abrams, Orci and Kurtzmann did was make Star Trek interesting for for a target audience that had never SEEN a Star Trek show or movie (including bringing in the largest international audience Star Trek had ever seen), thereby bringing the franchise back from the DEAD. We can sit here and wax poetic on how going back to Roddenberry Trek is the way to go………but Roddenberry’s way failed. Us “Old Fogeys” who have been watching Trek for 50 years can see that plainly enough if we care to pay attention. What Abrams and Co. did was make Star Trek a SUCCESSFUL franchise again, thereby ensuring we will get a 50th Anniversary film for Star Trek, something we never, ever would have gotten otherwise.

              Speaking of not paying attention, time and time again in “Star Trek” (2009) it said that the Quantum Event that was the destruction of the USS Kelvin by Nero’s 24th Century Romulan/Borg Tech Enhanced ship, the Narada created an —-Alternate Timeline—- (i.e. Parallel Universe ala String Theory/Many Worlds Theory). So perhaps LeVar Burton wasn’t paying attention either. The events in this new Universe didn’t erase the TNG adventures anymore than the events in the “Mirror, Mirror” Parallel Universe did. As everyone knows, ST:TNG “Parallels” showed millions of Enterprise-D’s from millions of Parallel Universes. Universes where the Borg had conquered the Alpha Quadrant, Universes where Worf married Deana, Universes where Riker was Captain of the Enterprise. One of those Enterprises could have very well been from the future of this new Parallel Universe….ALL while the Trek Prime Universe keeps ticking along. Star Trek hasn’t been consistent with it’s Time Travel/Parallel Universe stories, it’s just that this story decides that rather than going with the silly “Back to the Future”/”STIV:TVH” brand of Time Travel stories, these films go with the —Science— which is VERY “Star Trek”.

              It’s absurd to think that anyone beyond hardcore fans would pay to go see a film that chronicles the story of Kirk Prime’s time starting out in Starfleet. That story has been told, there would be no suprises in a story that everyone knows how it ends. So there is no where compelling to go with that story that is going to put even people in the theater to make it worth the investment of the Studio. Hence, telling stories in a Parallel Universe (for the first time showing where said Parallel Universe diverges from the Trek Prime Universe) makes for compelling stories where people don’t know what it going to happen. Are there similarities? Quantum Mechanics (i.e. Physics) demands that there are, but there are things that evolve radically differently. The Kirk and Spock in this Universe embody that concept. If you don’t want the New Parallel Universe, Star Trek Online, the current home of the Trek Prime Universe, is there whenever you want experience it again.

              Not sure how developing a new parallel universe is all about hard action. Yet putting in action while telling a good Science Fiction story worked. It’s absurd to say that Star Trek isn’t about action. One can’t watch the DS9 Dominion War storyline and say that the foundation of that story wasn’t action i.e. WAR while telling a compelling Science Fiction story….just like this film (except this film just has better special effects).

              I’ll leave you with a quote from one of Star Trek’s Founding Fathers: “I think the alternate universe was necessary. I think it was a very solid idea and necessary because, although it broke canon in a certain kind of way, if they didn’t do the alternate universe, they would have broken canon in other ways. It was constricting. There was so much history to be dealt with that if they did not do the alternate universe it would have been so constricting and it would have been very, very difficult to tell an exciting story without stepping on some toes somewhere. So, by doing it this way, I think they gave themselves a new canvass to work with. I think it was a very wise idea.” – Leonard Nimoy, StarTrek.com March 25, 2011

              Nuff said.

              • @ TheRentschmeister

                I agree 100% with your,however,I think at this point that argument is a lost cause for some people because it’s very difficult for some people to accept that change and they have a dislike for JJ “lens-flare” Abrahms (probably steam from LOST) but I digress. My first foray with Star Trek was actually TNG when it debuted back in ’87 and i try to keep up with the series while growing up..when DS9 premier i wasn’t so keen on DS9 so i skip that show and then Voyager premier and it kept me watching. As for the movie i had a friend who always teased me about Star Trek and then JJ Abrahms Star Trek came out and he loved it. You know what happen after that? he took to watching TOS on Netflix. You know what happen after that? HE actually started to watch TNG..after he watch TOS he finally understood why i loved Star Trek so much..and this is a guy who is a fanatic of all Star Wars. I’m not disputing your argument but i wholeheartedly agree with it; they just don’t want to accept THAT(2009 Star Trek) put Star Trek back on the map and the BO receipt proves it. The less said about Into Darkness the better because we all know that was a rehash of TWOK albeit with a twist here and there…IF nothing else people need to give credit where is do to Abrahms because – again – he revitalized Star Trek from the dumps after Nemesis. J/S

                • In defense of “ST:Into Darkness”, the story wasn’t really a rehash of ST:TWOK. It was their universe’s “Space Seed” coupled with several other elements from previous stories. The 24th Century Narada that cut through Starfleet and Klingon ships like a hot knife thru butter was a game changer. Khan was always out there in the Botany Bay when the Kelvin was destroyed. The fear that came from the aftermath of the Narada led to Admiral Marcus searching for a game changer. In the genetically engineered supermind of the Ubermensch that is Khan, he found that game changer. That is what the USS Vengeance embodied. Was there a sacrifice similar to ST:TWOK at the end? Sure. But Quantum Mechanics demands that there would be similarity/commonality involving these people at some point in their lives. Just as the parallel universe versions speak the same language, the clothes are a similar color, etc.

                  Many Worlds Theory dictates that (as Lt Commander Data discusses in ST:TNG “Parallels”) “all possibilities that can happen do happen” in a parallel universe. According to theory, there are going to be a much larger number of universes in which events are very closely related, because those are the most probable configurations of things. Some things will evolve differently in many of these universes, random events that don’t reflect the sister universes that are closest to them. They are the exception, not the rule. But for the vast majority, as the basic energy that makes up each universe is manipulated and the ripples from said manipulation spread thru the Multiverse, commonality/similarity IS the rule. So having events in one universe evolve like another universe even after a quantum event is merely the quantum energy guiding the universe back into the stream alongside it’s sister universes. Hence the people of the Alpha Quadrant in the new Parallel Universe didn’t all evolve a second head (though Many Worlds dictates that there is indeed a universe where that happened, just it’s much farther away from the Trek Prime Universe than this universe is in the Multiverse).

                  When you look at the way ST:ID performed overseas, the story worked. Looking at scores like that on Rotten Tomatoes where Critics gave it a 87% Fresh Score and the General Audience gives it a 90% Fresh Score, it achieved it’s goal of making a well received story. Probably as close to “Captain America: The Winter Soldier” style story that Star Trek is likely to get any time soon.

                  I was sold on the new story as soon as I read Orci and Kurtzmann’s “Star Trek Countdown” graphic novel several months before the first film was released. It wove Picard, Data, LaForge & Co. after “ST:Nemesis” into the story of the film. From Spock’s Jellyfish ship being designed by Geordi to Captain Data and his Enterprise-E trying to assist Romulus prior to the singularity incident, it was top notch.

                  That gave me high hopes that an Orci helmed 3rd film (from a guy who waxes poetic about the V’ger story from ST:TMP) painting for us the deep space exploration of this Universe’s Alpha Quadrant would bring the great effects while weaving a deeper story about what it is to be human. We’ll have to see what happens and hope for the best. If the 2016 50th Anniversary Film is as good as the Doctor Who 50th Anniversary episode was last year, I’ll be happy.

  16. All good points here. I realize ST prime universe had plenty of action. And as I mentioned I enjoy action. Another poster mentioned TOS and TNG were mostly about exploration and I guess I miss that. I love seeing a cross section of the trek universe when there is some plot at star fleet or an alien race that wants to conquer us, but I liked that original feel. That said I enjoyed every single bit of the prime trek in all shows..including Enterprise, because it drew a really great history/timeline. I also enjoyed all the time travel scenarios but they all returned to the prime universe after. Each show did a good job building a family feel in the crew and that coupled with the future tech is what made me watch the show. I actually cared about the characters and want to see more. Abrams universe was so fast paced that if you didn’t already know the characters you would not have even known them. Example I actually enjoyed seeing Kirk meet Bones for the first time and Bones ranting. Even though younger and a different actor As soon as I saw him I knew who it was and that was really cool. Again though if I didn’t already know who he was I dont think I would have cared about him or anyone else because Abrams didn’t really need to do much character building. I still have to say in my opinion I would have preferred a different approach to the reboot. Seeing the ‘prequel’ when Kirk was young is pretty cool, but I am done with it. Time to fast forward in the prime universe and come up with something new.

    And I am not really meaning to hate on Abrams. I totally enjoyed Lost (except maybe the end) and Alias. I mean is there anything better than a hot female spy? Jennifer Garner had it in spades. Cancelling that show was a major mistake.

  17. with the success of abrams star trek , the expected success of star wars, of films like Gravity, of guardians of the galaxy – still no first run space based tv series ? too expensive or isnt there the public appetite for a weekly series set away from earth .

    Anyway glad to see this thread still has legs – if this ‘Michasl Dorn confirms..etc’ thread was a Trek series we’d be into the third season by now

  18. Met Mr. Dorn when I doing research with the staff at the Denver Starland Convention (Colorado) for a Northern Colorado ST Convention (which we successfully did for 2 years in early 2000). He was arrogant, egotistical and not worth the trouble. He has forgotten that if not for STTNG and its fans, he would be barely remembered as the CHP officer who would take the bad guy away when Ponch and Jon arrested them on CHiPs.
    Nobody asked for a ‘Captain Worf’ show except HIM. He has been trying to shop it around for years and nobody really has been interested. He says there has been interest, in order to try to create it–the ‘if that guy is interested, then maybe I had better look at it’ fake-out. I would rather see a Cpatain Sulu or Captain Riker, than Work.

    • Yeah, Please bring back Riker. A worthy follow-up to Kirk and Picard.

  19. Rentschmeister–The article was not even about any of that stuff you ranted about. Please stay on topic. and anyway, anyone with some European (including Spaniards) wil be white–that does not erase their cultural heritage.
    Also: The Conventions I did were in the late 1990s in Grand JUnction, Colorado

    • Just an FYI: How this works is pretty simple. People post I respond. I post, people respond, I respond to them. Particularly when people make statements like your piffle about Spaniards. You see, if you had cared enough to go back and look for whacky stuff like…..context, you will see that some fans pretend that Ricardo Montalban was “Mexican” even though anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of Search Engines could discover that BOTH (versus “Some”) of his parents are Castillan Spaniards. That makes their “cultural heritage” as —Caucasian— as any Englishman (which any quality time spent on a Search Engine would also illustrate. Of course, it also ignores the fact that closer to home, any U.S. Census questionairre lists Latinos as……White. Fortunately, the racist brown face that the oh so white Ricardo Montalban had in ST:TOS was done away with in ST:TWOK and every Star Trek story about the Augments done thereafter.

      • As to the brown face used on Montalban, they were trying to make him look Sikh, supposedly, since that is what Khan Noonien Singh was supposed to be, not Mexican or Spaniard. To any heterosexual woman I ever met, what he looked like was HOT. In my house, three generations of women concurred on that one, and I grew up watching Mr. Rourke on the original Fantasy Island.

        • Roddenberry’s Botany Bay story line was
          about eugenics and racial ego gone wrong.
          For reasons of genetic diversity such an
          endeavor would do well to include diverse
          ethnic haplotypes from Earth.

          Roddenberry also made the point that old
          notions of royal or racial superiority
          would continue to cause big problems.

          It’s too bad that Roddenberry could not have
          found a really good Sikh actor for the part
          and representatives of many other diverse
          races, but it was the 1960′s.

          Since they had to recycle this of all stories
          couldn’t they have found a good Sikh actor?

          It was an affectation of the 60′s that a white
          Spaniard from Mexico played the Sikh prince.
          Montalban was superb, and reprising his role
          made TWOC more credible with viewers.
          (Though the rest of Botany Bay looked pretty WASPy.)

          In 2009 they should have cast actors
          who really fit the ethnically diverse
          Khan and Botany Bay.

          Changing Khan to a white guy and making it
          all about spies, intrigue and terrorism
          threw away the strengths of Roddenberry’s
          Botany Bay story about eugenics and race.

          For me at least, parallel universe stories
          do better when the quirks of that are shown
          head on, rather than used as a plot cop out.

          On LOVED stories, using “alternate universe”
          as an excuse for breaking canon is a cheap shot.

          Instead of breaking canon just to create
          plot twists, couldn’t they just expose
          parts that fit canon but yet were not
          exposed before?

          Can’t their scriptwriters come up with
          interesting stories that don’t break canon?

          • what you have to say greg is more up my fathers ally. the only reason why i got into star trek tng was because i knew it was a classical liberal reboot of the original series and got tired of the O.G.. i am still watching re-runs of tng on BBCA. i still love all the tng actors including will wheaton, whom has his own opinions of the series which i respect, at best. whatever happens to the tng franchise is up to them, i am just along for the ride.

          • Hollywood is a very conservative , meaning-free industry with a very slick marketing strategy and the current Star Trek is a reflection of that .
            Concept-wise the Eugenics wars would have been a great story arc where most of the characters could actually have had something to do but it must’ve tested badly in some focus group . Instead we have some almost-plot with Kirk still learning to shave and Spock acting more like Worf .

            Yes they couldve handled khan a lot better – Hollywood plays it safe and a british baddie makes better box office ( die hard mentality ) rather than the ‘risky’ but more realistic casting of a charismatic asian actor.

            I think the producers tackled the khan story too early and perhaps shouldve concocted a plot that fleshed out the federation a lot more

          • Breaking canon………………….how?

            These last two films are set —Entirely— in a parallel universe formed from the destruction of the USS Kelvin. As far as Roddenberry’s ST:TOS Brown Face Khan who later was made into White Face Khan in ST:TWOK, how is it that a “Fan” who has at least a basic understanding of reality doesn’t realize that……

            “Sikh”…….is a RELIGION….NOT an ethnicity.

            Sikh:(/siːk, sɪk/; Punjabi: ਸਿੱਖ sikkh [sɪkkʰ]) is a follower of Sikhism, a monotheistic religion which originated during the 15th century in the Punjab region of India.

            Unlike the past, in the 21st Century Sikhism isn’t practiced by only people from one corner of the Earth. One has but to Google: “White Sikh” to discover GASP!!!!! —White people— who actually follow Sikhism’s teachings.

            Hence, as has been noted ad nauseum on this very thread, one having a form of a Punjabi name doesn’t denote an ethnicity any more than Khan’s Augment brother Malik’s (an Arab name) name did. Particularly since Malik was ALSO played by a……….wait for it……..WHITE guy on ST:Enterprise.

            Though it is funny that people are so transfixed by Montalban’s Brown Face Khan in ST:TOS while ignoring Montalban’s White Face Khan in ST:TWOK. Of course, they also forget that Brown Face Khan’s Botany Bay crew were 100% White as well, just as White Face Khan’s Botany Bay crew was. If that doesn’t define ethnic “diversity” I don’t know what does.

            It’s fascinating that folks ignore that the original ST:TOS “Space Seed” script had the main villain be a white guy of Norse decent named Harald Ericsson. However Roddenberry decided to not allow his patronizing to be so nauseating transparent (since the main villain was nothing more than the embodiment of Nietzsche’s Zarathustra, the Übermensch from “Thus Spoke Zarathustra”) and changed it a white guy in brown face. The name Khan Noonian Singh was merely Roddenberry trying to send a message to get the attention of his former friend Kim Noonian Singh a pilot he had flown with in World War 2 whom he had lost touch with.

            But the fact that a character played by a white guy in brown face, with a Sikh name and a Latino accent is romanticized by fans is frankly astounding. The ST:Enterprise writers attempted to shift focus from the silliness of first a Brown Face then later Sans Brown Face Khan into focus instead on what and how the Augments like Khan were designed. Frankly, their Augment stories did far more in defining just what the Augments like Khan were capable of (while also linking them to a much beloved ST:TNG character) than “Space Seed” or TWOK ever did.

            But still people do mental gymnastics and focus on the Brown Face while ignoring the plethora of other facts. To quote Spock, it’s quite fascinating.

            • Two entire movies in the alternate time line
              says that they have no intention of getting
              back to canon meta “reality”.

              So Hollywood “focus groups” and “testing”
              interferes with major plotlines,
              good scriptwriting, good casting and
              bold visionary stories?

              Then Hollywood is doomed.

              I’ve noticed a few good actors are unwilling
              to deal with this shallow Hollywood garbage.

              Do these Hollywood bankers and “bean counters”
              ever acknowledge that this kind of micromanagement
              leads to really weak story lines?

              Are they going to turn science fiction movies
              into reality shows or music videos just because
              it “tests well”?

              This is why it takes HUGE POWERFUL producers
              and directors to overcome the “focus group”
              BS and create stories with vision and integrity!

              I’d rather see a madman’s unadulterated vision
              than pablum stories watered down by testing
              and “focus groups”.

              I’d rather see somebody’s cinematic ART with
              a personal attitude, warts, wrinkles and all
              rather than some bean counter derived
              formulaic PRODUCT.

              A series with Mr. Dorn as Captain Worf could
              do well if it’s well written and well produced.

              Hollywood could still muck it up by
              micromanaging or short sighted hysteria
              about ratings.

              The more I think about this “office politics”
              part of Hollywood the more I appreciate guys
              like Gene Roddenberry, and strangely I even
              have more appreciation for guys like that
              who FAILED and so I never even heard of them.

              Don’t you hate it when you just start to
              really “get into” a show and then it
              gets cancelled?

              • It would be great for someone to wrest Star Trek from the clutches of box office beanheads but i guess paramount needs a product . If it has to stay in that franchise i would like to see a 2, maybe 3 film arc where writers and producers can really focus on what they have – failing that they plunder TOS’s 1st and 2nd seasons and produce more coherent and faithful adaptations and respect their audience a little more

                There are a few independent internet star trek productions kicking about of ‘varying quality’ but it would be nice if paramount could invest in a few properly produced viginettes and thats where the Captain Worf idea could be tested.

            • Don’t use your kirpan on me bro!
              I don’t have a degree in cultural anthropology but..

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh

              “Sikh” properly refers to adherents of Sikhism as a religion, not an ethnic group.

              However,
              ========

              because Sikhism has seldom sought converts, most Sikhs share strong ethno-religious ties. Many countries, such as the U.K., therefore recognize Sikh as a designated ethnicity on their censuses.[16] The American non-profit organization United Sikhs has fought to have Sikh included on the U.S. census as well, arguing that Sikhs “self-identify as an ‘ethnic minority’” and believe “that they are more than just a religion”.[17]

              Male Sikhs usually have “Singh” (Lion),
              —————————————

              and female Sikhs have “Kaur” (Princess) as their middle or last name. Sikhs who have undergone the khanḍe-kī-pahul (the Sikh initiation ceremony) may also be recognized by the five Ks: uncut hair (kesh); an iron or steel bracelet (kara);

              a kirpan (a sword tucked into a gatra strap);
              ———————————————

              [ Many Sikhs carry a tiny token 2" kirpan sword every day.
              Larger ones are used for ceremonies. -Greg ]

              kachehra, a cotton undergarment, and kanga, a small wooden comb. Baptized male Sikhs must cover their hair with a turban, which is also compulsory for baptized female Sikhs. The greater Punjab region is the historic homeland of the Sikhs, although significant communities exist around the world.

              • It’s cute that you can Copy/Paste from Wikipedia. However, that does NOT negate the fact that as I have stated previously, Sikhism is a RELIGION, not an ethnicity. Again, for the class, if one Googles:

                “White Sikh”

                One will find pictures of………….GASP!!!!!!! WHITE SIKHS!!!!! Wearing Turbans and everything!!!! Just who do those people think they are??? Especially when you have Star Trek fans clumsily trying to make Sikhism an ethnicity. So much so that they’ll try justifying it by latching onto what the British Census shows……..while ignoring that the United States census would beg to disagree.

                It’s even funnier how certain folks want to make the case that one’s name implies one’s ethnicity. After all, Timothy Scott a fairly common American white guy name couldn’t be the name that a person of African descent would have, right? Especially not a US Senator who happens to be of African descent. Right? Anymore than ST:Enterprise’s Malik, Khan’s Augment Brother could be an ethnicity other than Arab since his name is clearly of Arab origin. Pay ZERO attention to the fact that Malik was played by Alec Newman, a card carrying Scottish white guy.

                Oh the Humanity!!!!!!!! They didn’t get the Memo!!!!

                • Frankly, I’m being sarcastic and joking about this stuff because when you know how the characters were developed, how the stories were written, what the focus actually was, you find that it is absurd to craft some mythology around them like Roddenberry was directing the second coming or something. If you don’t try busting balls with it or having some fun with it, you’re missing the fact that it is all a work of fiction. Comparable to crying uncontrollably while watching the Red Wedding on Game of Thrones. These aren’t actual people in an actual place, so sure you can be a serious fan but have some fun with it or you’re going to drive yourself crazy

                  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57IfVmX6bCU

                    Is this what you mean?

                    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrOoEcD6ies

                      Or is this more like it?

                    • Uh…..I have no idea how those two links are relevant to a conversation about people making a religion into an ethnicity. I mean, I guess we could do that, some religions would probably be totally okay with it. Not sure what that would say about Humanity itself when people would create a new ethnicity based solely on what god they worship. I guess Judaism would be close to that standard, but not sure how that would work for guys like Sammy Davis Jr.

                      Or mythologizing/finding some “Deeper meaning” in a show where the lead villain/foil to the main characters has a name created just so the showrunner can find an old friend. I mean, it’s absurd.

  20. When you think about it, TNG carried on the spirit of the original series while reinventing Star Trek at the same time, and it did a great job of it. Then came DS9 and Voyager, two more shows which further built upon this foundation to expand the Star Trek universe. I’m not saying every episode was great (or even that I liked all the characters), but I always knew I was watching Star Trek and I always enjoyed it.

    Then came Enterprise – a cool concept that somehow ended up squandering any relevent storyline opportunities while also feeling less like Star Trek than anything that had come before. The cast didn’t help much, either.

    Finally there were the two JJ Abrams movies. Lots of fun, great casts, but the reboot brought with it some huge plot changes that couldn’t be overlooked down the line, most notably the fact that Vulcan was destroyed.

    Now I don’t know much about what the plot of this series was supposed to entail, so take everything else I say with a grain of salt. But when you think about it, Michael Dorn reprising his role as Worf as the captain of a Federation ship much in the spirit of TNG would be exactly what the franchise needs to [A] return itself to its roots, and [B] position itself for future spinoff shows by leveraging other cast members. I mean, no other character in the Star Trek universe has appeared as a regular in two different shows, and the fact that he brings a strong Klingon presence to the show is another benefit. The point is that more than any other character, Worf could bridge the gap between TNG/DS9/Voy and any future show by means of an intermediate show focused on Worf in the captain’s seat.

    It sounds like this isn’t going to happen, and that’s too bad, because I can’t think of a better way to preserve the franchise while also giving the show a good path to future than by putting Worf in command of a Federation ship. But that’s just me.

    • Paramount would have a hard time finding financial backing for another Star Trek series based in the Trek Prime Universe. The ratings decline that the previous series experienced over time (while telling some fantastic stories like DS9′s Dominion War) culminating in ST:Enterprise’s cancellation (even though in it’s final season they told some of the best stories the series ever had like the Augments episodes which gave us a much deeper understanding of how Khan was created and how humanity ultimately dealt with his test-tube brothers after he fled Earth) make another series a hard sell. Ultimately if they were to ever do another series, they could do one chronicling how Starfleet and the Federation in the new film’s parallel universe diverged from the Trek Prime Universe after Nero destroyed the Kelvin. I mean the guy obliterated almost the entire Klingon fleet prior to going into hiding. Just the ripple effect of that altered their Alpha Quadrant forever (like making the Klingons even more dangerous as the whipped dogs they became). That would make for an interesting show.

      I think that it will be a very long time before we see another show set in the Trek Prime Universe. For folks that yearn for stories set in that universe, Star Trek Online is telling new stories in that universe every day. Stories set 30 years after the events of ST:Nemesis. As of last January there were 3.2 million Star Trek fans enjoying the Trek Prime Universe stories on their website. Their new Delta Rising storyline starring Tim Russ (Tuvok is now Captain of Voyager), Jeri Ryan (Seven of Nine), Ethan Phillips (Neelix), etc. looks like a fun ride. The fact that the have the actors from the original Voyager series (minus Kate Mulgrew since Janeway is now an Admiral and Robert Beltran/Chakotay whom I’m not sure whats his status) is excellent.

  21. The studios are dieing, so the hope of Paramount doing anything intelligent… well, there is no hope. In reality, it’s not like they need to pump out 24 episodes a season in this day and age. 10 well-written hour long episodes would suffice, and modern CGI can eliminate the costly sets of the “old days”. 90% was sound stage shot anyways, so no travel or location costs. Shoot it in Vancouver or some other craphole with ridiculous film credits like Santa Fe, and you’ve got yourself a Star Trek show again.

    Oh, and no Bon Jovi allowed. Period.

  22. And Im pretty sure the backstory I read somewhere long ago was that Khan chose that name for himself? He could’ve just as easily named himself Alexander or Napoleon or Adolf or Julius. It had nothing to do with any ethnic background. When you’re genetically altered, I think the role of ethnicity becomes moot anyways.

    • You are exactly right. Khan and his gentically engineered brothers and sisters were created by scientists like Dr Stavos Keniclius to be “Supermen” that could bring “Peace” to Planet Earth. Thanks to a flaw in their genetic makeup (as Doctor Arik Soong later theorized) it didn’t work out that way. But irregardless, when one is genetically engineered, one’s “race” is meaningless.

  23. I always found Space Seed’s Khan to be a romantic charismatic leader who had almost conquered half the globe . His ethnicity was important – he was modern day Genghis Khan who by his appearance the tv audience knew that his beginnings and power base was not Europe or the United States. The producers picked a popular and charismatic actor who could capture the complexity and ruthlessness of someone who could exist (!) in 1966/7′s near future .

    Times change and fast forward 15 years and Khan is now a warrior – his ethnicity takes a back seat – his obsession is now the key factor . Thankfully the same actor is more than capable of playing to that obsession

    Fast forward 20 years . Into darkness is not a continuation . However i think in these days of complex multinational multi-ethnic audiences you have a choice.

    By name association the main antagonist Khan is still of some lineage – Do you pick a charismatic actor of a more realistic ethnicity and thus add little more credence or would he be seen as a stereotype?

    i suspect they kept to the fairly simple template that Star trek follows of an uninvolving snarling villain who wont get in the way of the action.

    • Uh……You do realize that Genghis Khan was many things, but a Sikh or any ethnicity from India for that matter was —-Not—- one of them.

      So tell me how the brown face was important again? Particularly since you can Google the history of the episode and see the character was originally written to be a white Norse man.

      Then there is the bit about name of the character. Khan Noonian Singh was merely a version of Roddenberry’s friend Kim Noonian Singh that he had flown with in World War 2. Of course the FRIEND was Indian. But having the white guy, in brown face with a Latino accent is…………..something to mythologize? Really?

      Of course, if you knew anything about the character, you’d know that “Khan” was what he chose to name himself. The reality is that Khan was no more a Northern Indian than his brother Malik was an Arab. When one is designed in a test tube, race matters………..Zip, Zero, Nada, Zilch.

      That is of course why the writers chose to make Malik a white guy (as Khan and the rest of his crew always were) in ST:Enterprise. Because when one’s genetic makeup is designed in a test tube, the only people consumed with a bizarre focus on race is the viewer who places their own preconceived notions on the character on the screen. Or perhaps “Race” only matters for a guy named “Khan” and it doesn’t matter for his brother “Malik”? How one gets there when there was an Augment storyline in ST:Enterprise which showed how foolish fixating on a race is pretty silly (particularly since the second story featuring Khan had him with just as white a face as the rest of his crew…..had ALWAYS had since Space Seed) when you are talking about people designed from scratch in a test tube.

      But why worry about the Big Picture i.e. the established canon surrounding the Augments when fans can just craft a fantastical story in their heads?

      • Let’s do a little thought experiment…

        1. The original Space Seed script called for the protagonist to be a white Norse man. Roddenberry decides that he wasn’t comfortable with a “White” Superman, but instead wanted someone with an “Ethnic” flavor. Coincidentally….or not….he names said character Khan Noonian Singh, based on his World War 2 friend, Kim Noonian Singh. Not because he was creating a character to be “romanticized” but because he had lost contact with said friend and wanted to get in touch with him again. He hoped naming the character as he did would prompt his friend to try contacting him.

        2. The actor chosen to play said character is a guy born in Mexico of two Castilian Spaniards. They then apply brown face and throw a turban on him, labeling him a “Sikh” because much like far too many fans, they didn’t bother considering a “Sikh” is a follower of a monotheistic religion that was started in Northern India and not a race. Supporting cast of Characters chosen to play his fellow Augments are all as white as the he is. “Ethnic flavor” of brown face, Indian garb and Latino accent becomes a hit among the fan base.

        3. Nearly 20 years later, said actor is asked to again play said character. This time, they dispense with the Brown Face, making the character as pasty white as his fellow actors playing his fellow Augments always were. They keep the Latino accent of character. Character goes out with a bang. Film is considered by ST:TOS fans as the best of the original crew’s films.

        4. In ST:TAS “The Infinite Vulcan”, the backstory of the Augments is delved into further, introducing character Dr Stavros Keniclius, one of the scientists responsible for creating said genetically engineered “Supermen”. The Dr was exiled from Earth after the Eugenics Wars. He was intent on cloning the Augments to create an entire race of “Peacekeepers”.

        5. In ST:Enterprise “Borderlands”, “Cold Station 12″ and “The Augments” the backstory of said Augments are fleshed out even further. The writers have Dr Arik Soong (of whom Dr Noonian Soong, Lt. Commander Data, Lore, B4 and Lal are all descended from) in prison for stealing many of the Augment embryos from Cold Station 12, the top-secret facility where 1800 of the Augment embryos were being stored. The story involves the Orion Syndicate, the Augments and the Klingons. Story also shows that the name of a genetically engineered person is superfluous by naming characters with none European names like “Malik” while keeping the actors playing the Augments just as white as their fellow actors were in “Space Seed” and “The Wrath of Khan”.

        6. In the stories set in the new Parallel Universe created from the destruction of the USS Kelvin, the 2nd film again includes the character of Khan. The actor chosen to play said character is just as white as the original actor. The production staff strangely forgo the brown face and Latino accent, opting instead for the actor to look as the character Khan did in “The Wrath of Khan” and an English accent which coincides with where the character first appears in the film.

        Yet after all of that information, after all of that history……fans of Star Trek who aren’t happy that the films are set in a new universe (while forgetting that the stories in the Trek Prime Universe led to the death of Star Trek, both in the failure of ST:Nemesis and replicating what happened under Roddenberry’s high-minded tutelage with ST:TOS, the cancellation of ST:Enterprise) get bent out of shape due to the actor playing Khan being just as white as the first “popular” actor that played Khan, the biggest difference being the new actor doesn’t have a Latino accent. They also try to make “Sikh” a race rather than the religion that it is.

        Out of all of that information, how are those things even remotely logical? I mean, if one wants to hate the success of the previous films, that’s fine. But to create a mythology around said character after the facts of it’s creation are known, how does one justify that?

        • Note: Technically it was 15 years/1.5 decades from “Space Seed” to “Wrath of Khan”

          • Two days ago you dismissed all of this talk
            as too serious, basically saying in other
            words JUST KIDDING!
            Now you’re posting long and serious sounding
            argumentation. Are you OK?

            TheRentschmeister 2 days ago
            Frankly, I’m being sarcastic and joking about this stuff because when you know how the characters were developed, how the stories were written, what the focus actually was, you find that it is absurd to craft some mythology around them like Roddenberry was directing the second coming or something. If you don’t try busting balls with it or having some fun with it, you’re missing the fact that it is all a work of fiction. Comparable to crying uncontrollably while watching the Red Wedding on Game of Thrones. These aren’t actual people in an actual place, so sure you can be a serious fan but have some fun with it or you’re going to drive yourself crazy

            • The point is, though I know this stuff like the back of my hand. I’m always amazed at the mental gymnastics that people do (typically without knowing all the information) to reach an answer that they WANT rather than the answer that is FACT. So though it is done with copious amounts of sarcasm, the thought experiment still stands. I want to pear into the chasm and see how the Khan from STID is the same skin color as the Khan in ST:TWOK is ignored while people take issue with him not looking like the white guy in brown face.

              People contrive all kinds of stories, building a mythology about these stories like they were the second coming when they are anything but. Comparable to you pretending that at any point I said “Just Kidding” which I certainly did not (making fun of other’s silliness is a long, long way from “Just Kidding”) while at the same time, you take me posting a list of facts that anyone who has been a Star Trek fan long enough to have watched the episodes, read up on the production history of the show would identify as mere facts into what you label “argumentation”

              I guess the obvious question is, since your mind has taken this circuitous route to create this backstory that makes you feel better for whatever reason, are YOU ok?

      • Thats why i started my post with the words ‘I always found’ This is a personal take on a couple of episodes – it cant be anything else. i didn’t create the thing

        Admittedly I havent watched Space Seed in a while but i would still argue Khan’s ethnicity in that episode is important . As a side note I dont remember mentioning his nationality .
        I would also argue the name Khan , his attire , appearance , the notion of conquest , his ethnicity ( ie. region ) evokes the image of Genghis khan rather than napoleon , alexender the great or even Hitler.

        I remember Khan mentioning in TWOK he was once a prince . Theres a sense of lost nobility – which again differentiates from the others i think. I said I think

        Perhaps thats why the Khan of Into Darkness was disappointing. There was no sense of lost nobility – he just seemed to be someone who was duped .

        I think the current producers used the Khan character too early – get the kirk and Spock growing pains stuff out the way – Establish their vision of the 23rd Century Trek first and If they’re going to plunder original series episodes – maybe Errand of Mercy ?

        Then they could have come back to Khan and flesh out the character.

        Anyway as i said in an earlier post – nice to see this forum still has legs

        • So Khan’s name reflects his “Ethnicity”? What would be that “Ethnicity” then? Particularly since “Sikh” is a monotheistic religion.

          And “Khan” is a…….MONGOLIAN name/title.

          As stated previously, Roddenberry took the name of his former WW2 friend, Kim Noonian Singh and changed it slightly in the hope he’d try getting in contact once he saw his name in a tv show. No “Meaning” beyond that. This fact is discussed in the book: “The Name’s Familiar: Mr. Leotard, Barbie, and Chef Boy-Ar-Dee”.

          The name “Khan” is Mongolian-Turkic honorific title. The surname Khan is common among the Pashtun in Pakistand and Afghanistan.

          Coincidentally, Khan’s Test Tube Brother Malik (also played by a white guy) has an Arabic name. The name is originally from the Assyrians and Babylonians. Interestingly, the name Malik means…………………..King.

          So you have two belligerent, power hungry thugs who think of themselves as KINGS.

          Yet since they were made in a test tube, built from scratch by men who believed they could build “Supermen” who guide the world out of the dark time remaining from the 3rd World War. Of course, they merely started NEW wars, the Eugenics Wars. One that led to Khan and his Botany Bay brethren fleeing Earth for their lives.

          One can dress a turd up in pretty clothes and still is a turd. We can romanticize what it means to be a “Prince”. Yet Vlad the Impaler was a “Prince”.

          Yet no one romanticizes him being a Prince. He fought bravely against the Muslim Turk invaders attempting to conquer Romania. But he also committed atrocities that bordered on genocide. Hence he is known to this day as “Dracula”.

          Nothing “romantic” about that anymore than Khan’s actions during the Eugenics Wars.

          Of course, it’s funny that folks have a problem with STID’s Khan being pasty white since ST:TOS’s Khan was in Brown Face in “Space Seed”. Yet not one person ever mentions that ST:TWOK’s Khan ALSO was pasty white. So the Khan of STID not looking like “Space Seed” Khan is “Bad” but the Khan of ST:TWOK not looking like “Space Seed” Khan is………….no big deal? Especially since the Khan portrayed in both films look exactly the same (except for ST:TWOK Khan is older).

          So again, the mental gymnastics that people go thru trying to complain about one piece while ignoring the overwhelming evidence that stands in contrast the other way is frankly amazing.

          • thanks for reply , i think youre getting religion mixed up with ethnicity a bit there though. The other facts without checking sound interesting but theyre backstory facts – they dont make it to the final product . Star Trek isnt a documenentary but saying that i’d like to think its a bit more than an advertisement or a music video or a computer game .

            • Yeah……uh, no. No mix up here. A “Sikh” is a follower of the religion called Sikhism, which is the fifth largest organised religion in the world. A Sikh is a disciple of the Guru Granth Sahib which is more than a Holy book for the Sikhs – It is their perpetual and living spiritual teacher and guide.

              Sikhism has ten human Gurus. The religion was founded by Guru Nanak, who was born in 1469 in the Punjab in a village which is now part of Pakistan. Guru Nanak was followed by nine successive human masters. The tenth master was Guru Gobind Singh. When he departed from earth, he proclaimed the Guru Granth Sahib the perpetual Guru of the Sikhs.

              No ethnicity. Just a religion. Of course, one’s ethnicity isn’t determined by where one is born anymore than a name determines ones ethnicity. One can ask any of the countless generations of people from a variety of races born in the United States that have adopted Anglicized names that vary greatly from the typical names in the nations from which their families originated.

              Just like pretending there to be some deeper, wonderful meaning behind a characterization done on a SciFi show doesn’t make it so. At the end of the day, it’s the name of a character once done by an actor in brown face and once not, then done by a different actor who also did the character sans brown face.

              • I already posted a quote from wiki that said Sikhism is a religion
                but then went on to say “however” and described that it is also a “de-facto” ethnic group. People can’t just switch castes in India.

                People can be ethnically Jewish also.

                • NEWS FLASH: Sikhism isn’t a “Caste” in India. Of course, while your romanticizing the murderous dictator Khan, you probably missed that bit.

                  Exhibit A:
                  “Although the Sikh Gurus criticised the hierarchy of the caste system, one does exist in Sikh community. According to Sunrinder S, Jodhka, the Sikh religion does not advocate discrimination against any caste or creed, however, in practice, Sikhs belonging to the landowning dominant castes have not shed all their prejudices against the dalits. While dalits would be allowed entry into the village gurudwaras they would not be permitted to cook or serve langar (Communal meal). Therefore, wherever they could mobilise resources, the dalits of Punjab have tried to construct their own gurudwara and other local level institutions in order to attain a certain degree of cultural autonomy.[94] In 1953, the government of India acceded to the demands of the Sikh leader, Master Tara Singh, to include Sikh castes of the converted untouchables in the list of scheduled castes.[95][96] In the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee, 20 of the 140 seats are reserved for low-caste Sikhs.”

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India#Sikh

                  Now what was that about the Sikh religion being a “Caste”?

                  It’s funny how equivication works. After all, how can one that the pasty white Khan in Wrath of Khan is ethnically anything other than raging Caucasian….just as the pasty white Khan in Into Darkness was? Only if you pretend the TWOK Khan got his skin lightened after hanging out of Ceti Alpha V. I suppose if one buys the brown face Khan, one can hope that the brown paint would indeed wear off after years of sand-blasting.

                  You keep missing (or ignoring) the obvious here all to cram a SciFi character into the box you’ve mentally constructed for him. People can convert to Judaism just as they can Sikhism. That is the point. Pretending that someone being mentioned a “Sikh” somehow equates “Ethnicity” is as nonsensical as deciding that someone who has converted to Judaism somehow equates “Ethnicity” as well. That is the patently obvious point.

                  The Augment known as “Khan” was once depicted in the ever so Al Jolson brown face by a Caucasian actor(Ricardo Montalban). The very same Augment “Khan” was depicted sans brown face TWICE by TWO Caucasian actors(by both Montalban and Cumberbatch). Khan’s Augment brothers have been depicted with a variety of names from the Arabic “Malik” (played by Alec Newman…Caucasian) to the Hebrew “Joachim” (played by Judson Scott…Caucasian)yet said Augments were never depicted in said Al Jolson tribute look. Instead, they were ALL depicted by Caucasian actors, hence their names do not imply ethnicity in the slightest, anymore than their names reflect what particular faith they chose to adopt, whether they were Hindi or Satanists. The only thing that we DO know for sure, whatever faith they chose was done to further their desire to subjugate as much of Earth’s population as possible to their tyranny.

                  Of course, it seems fairly obvious that was the point of placing a wide variety of names from different ethnic origins on characters that were ALL done by Caucasian actors. When scientists like Stavos Keniclius were creating a Superman in a test tube, the race of said Übermensch is utterly irrelevant….unless one thinks that a particular race is superior to others. Of course, that takes this conversation down a road that is diametrically opposed to what Star Trek is supposed to be about.

                  So no, having the name “Khan Noonian Singh” doesn’t indicate a particular race anymore than the name “Ben Kingsley” (whose birth name happens to be Krishna Pandit Bhanji) does. Neither does being a practicing Sikh indicate any particular race. No matter what mental gymnastics/preconceived notions are applied.

              • The points you are making would take up a 90 minute documentary about the roots of religion. The episode was about a charismatic character and his ethnicity helped the viewer appreciate the characters background – in my opinion.

                • A 90 minute documentary about the roots of religion isn’t necessary since Religion does not Ethnicity make.

                  Something tells me (it’s patently obvious frankly) you’ve never actually watched the further Augments episodes that fleshed out the backstory to Khan and his ilk from ST:TAS or ST:Enterprise. Khan and his Augment brothers were blood thirsty tyrants bent on conquering the world. There was nothing “charismatic” about them unless one is charmed by the murder of millions of innocents. You may want to rewatch the episode, because the white guy in Al Jolsen-esque Brown Face with the Latino accent never had an “Ethnicity” mentioned unless one still wants to pretend that “Sikh” is something more than a religion. Of course, that’s why the white guy Montalban played Khan as a WHITE guy in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan. The fact that one is entranced by the Brown Face while ignoring Montalban playing Khan as a WHITE guy is more than a little disturbing (and more than a little telling).

                  But as I said, that is merely YOU hanging your preconceived notions and prejudices around a character that was never, ever intended to be what you choose to pretend he is.

                  By your twisted logic, if Khan whose brutality and evil was so contemptible that he had to flee Earth to escape those who wanted him to pay for his crimes, is a charming leader, one must therefore think that other bloodthirsty tyrants like Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, et al are also inspirational and dreamy fellas. Again, that says a great deal more about the person who glamorizes said blood thirsty tyrant far more than it does about the individual placed on said pedestal.

                  That isn’t opinion, merely —Fact—. But what the hell, whatever floats your boat.

                  • thats my point – ethnicity and religion are two different things – thats what ive been saying !

                    I keep repeating myself but i think the ethnicity of the character in the 1960s episode is important – it gives this character depth – I take it you dont think its important and thats fine .

                    I dont think the ethnicity of the same character is as important in the 1982 film : the pain of losing his wife and the obsession with the man he thinks caused her death is more than enough.

                    Dont get me wrong – Khan is a villain but he has depth, contradictions and charisma and that makes him a memorable character .

                    Which leads me to his final (?) incarnation – I think they wasted this character in the movie. They could have waited another film or so ( box office permitting )

                    As for tar Trek Enterprise – are you implying an episode written in 2000′s can have any bearing on an episode written in 1960′s !!? or is that twisted logic ?

                    At least we now agree religion and ethnicity are too different things – thats something …

                    I’ll finish by asking you the following – Would you say the character Khan in the episode ‘space seed’ is memorable and what – in your opinion – not wikipedias – your opinion – makes him memorable and worthy of further films.

                    … and finally do you think Micheal Dorn should reprise his role as Worf in a new series ?

                    • I don’t believe “agreement” means what you think it means.

                      You keep blathering about how his “Ethnicity” was important in “Space Seed” yet they never, ever mentioned an —Ethnicity—. The only thing they said was that he was a Sikh. Again, anyone with a pulse understands that when you are talking about an individual designed in a test tube, ethnicity means absolutely nothing.

                      Of course, you’re the same guy who made Sikhism a…..”Caste” in Indian Society so there’s that.

                      Rather than myopically focus on Al Jolsen-Khan, the character should be judged in context with Star Trek Canon. That means that the white guy that Khan always was matters. Who and what the Augments were matters because Khan is an Augment. The same Augments mentioned in the Star Trek Animated Series. The same Augments mentioned and shown over several episodes in Star Trek Enterprise. They are and always were blood thirsty tyrants who wanted to subjegate humanity to their will.

                      Of course, if one only watches Space Seed and pretends that was the end of stories about Khan’s ilk, you are ignorant of the details i.e. Back story of said Augments. However, ignoring their back story as it was fleshed out in the future episodes is nothing short of willful ignorance.

                      You keep contriving these attributes to Khan that he never, ever had. He was a Murderous Tyrant. Period. End of story. His fellow Augments were Murderous Tyrants. Period.

                      To glamorize said Murderous Tyrant is comparable to saying that Hitler wasn’t all bad because he built nice roads.

                      It boggles the mind that you seriously seem to not understand something known as…..CANON in Science Fiction. In Star Trek, it’s a pretty important thing. Hence when the Augments were fleshed out far more than they ever were in ST:TOS, it matters. Saying that the Augments episodes from ST:Enterprise has no relevance to ST:TOS Augments ala Space Seed is no different than saying that the Darth Vader in the original Star Wars trilogy doesn’t have any connection with the events in the 3 Star Wars prequels. Or that the Stargate film has nothing to do with the Stargate television series. It only works in the mind of those who want to pretend such.

                      If you want to pretend that established canon doesn’t matter, you therefore don’t really understand how science fiction works and you –Seriously– don’t understand how Star Trek has always worked.

                      You ask what was memorable about the blood thirsty tyrant Khan? Easy, the guy was so loathed and hated on Earth he had to flee for his life. Yet Kirk and Company chose to not focus on that so much. Kirk almost paid for that mistake with his life. Twice (Hint: thats where ST:TWOK kinda gains relevance).

                      Fleshing out the new Parallel Universe’s storyline coupling it with modern day concerns is what Star Trek has always been about. That’s what the last film did. That’s why the blood thirsty Khan was relevant to the film. He was a genius as well as a murderous thug bent on domination. Just like he always was.

                      Of course, most folks except for you understand that.

                      FYI: Since this story is over 2 years old, Michael Dorn has as much chance reprising his role as Worf as he does becoming President of the United States. Of course, Worf doesn’t really matter to folks who want to pretend Star Trek ended with the Original Series and that the following series have no relevance to them.

                    • I detect Aspergers.

  24. In response to TheRentschmeister last comment i’m not the guy who made sikhism a caste so you really are getting things mixed up. Go check the conversations . So on that happy note theres not much else to say . If we ever lock horns on another topic – lets hope you will be less confused. Auf wiedersehen

    • Why would somebody argue that ethnicity was not an
      important part of the “Space Seed” episode of ST:TOS?

      Could it be that somebody really just wants
      to argue with anybody about anything?

      • I guess so

  25. I think there should be an android on your series Mr. Dorn.
    Ask ‘sheldon’ big bang theory. he is perfect, height, size, intellect on his line uses and knows humor, is good actor.