Agreeed.

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. You are justifying the invalid use of a movie genre for ID4 because it contains technology you disagree with and I ma merely trying to point out that this is exactly what the SciFi genre is about; magic like tech.

At least you can make valid and intteligent arguments for your stance and not resort to name calling and othe rforms of flaming that often come about from disagreements.

Take my brother in law. Not much for science fiction or fantasy, why I ask? “Doesn’t feel right. Deals too much in the unbelievable. Might as well believe in magic and Salem style witches.” Now what has failed my brother in law. Is he stupid? No, he plays too good a game of chess and has always done well in the economy, so he’s not stupid. Well maybe the education system failed him? Perhaps they failed all of us!

“Who’s to say they haven’t found a way to change the gravity around the ship so that teh effect is taken something and redusing it’s weight by a factor so large that it makes something much easier to lift? ”

It’s about an object’s Mass which is more than its weight. It’s about moving that object too, even more fantasy science. Which I think was my whole point in the discussion to begin with. Maybe another term will make you happy “pseudo-science fiction.” It’s not about the composition, the elements used to entertain the audience. It’s about it being properly classified for its character. Roland’s movie is pseudo-science fiction not science fiction. Their’s nothing wrong with that, I just want to know that if we sit down to talk about a spade it’s a spade not a rake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFBtlZfwEwM

You really don’t get it do you? You have no clue as to why they went with the 15 miloe wide ships over the city vs just being willed into our relaity, do you? It’s about elliciting emotion and capturing the audeince’s attention. If you put on screen the image of a 15 mile wide alien ship that hovers over the city, casting a shadow so big it blocks out the sun for most if not all of the city then you have an attention grabbing image. If they had the aliens simply beam into our planet then there be no “AAAWWWW” from the audeince.

And it doesn’t matter that the city wasn’t crushed by the hovering ship. Your logic about this is falwed as you assume the only way to enable such hovering above the planet would be some force that causes equal force down upon what its hovering over whcih would then crush everything below it. Who’s to say they haven’t found a way to change the gravity around the ship so that teh effect is taken something and redusing it’s weight by a factor so large that it makes something much easier to lift?

Steel is lighter and stronger then Iron. Titanium is not stronger then Steel but it is lighter. If we start off with Iron and over time move to Titanium to construct something we have over time and the advancement of technology increased the strength of the object thru changes in the materials and we have reduced the obejst overall weight multiple times. In the end if you build a space ship out of Iron, an identical ship out of Steel and a third ship out of Titanium you will have 3 copies of the same ship that each require differering levels of energy to lift.

With recent advents in nanotubes and other cutting edge tech we now can view Titanium the way we uwsed to view Iron or made even stone. As we advance we improive the strongth and reduce the weight of our building materials.

is it really hard then to believe that an aline race that is way advanced of us would be able top build such a large ship but yet not be able to make it so that they can’t fly it over anything without totally destroying it?

Now yes they could have just as easily destryoyed cities by merely landing the ships and then takling off and landing again but this is a movie and not a real alien invasion so its all about cpaturing the audience. What looks cooler on the big screen, seeing a super laser come out the center of a ship and causes a chain reaction of outward psiriling fire & explosions as shown in the movie or landing a 15 mile wide ship and then taking off and landing again?

I understand your problem with getting it because youre trying to make movies technology fit into the logic and science you understand but thats not how the movie business works. I get that this is a movie an not a documentary re-creation or a real event and thats how I can enjoy it without getting wound up iin why the science in the movie doesn’t meet with my understanding of the world.

I did watch most of part 1 but stopped there due to time constraints but I did see enough to see where you are getting at with the “See his Frustration/Take” bit and I have seen this kind of “hod do I make it fit into my world of understanding” many times since I work in technology specifically as a DBA and developer/analyst. I’m lucky in that I’m creative (almost went for a career in art instead of computers) and so I can see the logical side of something but at the same time see the abstract; see outside the defined.

While you’ve raised some good points and provided a very interesting link you have not provided more then an opinion as to why the genre of Science Fiction is not applicable to the movie. If anything your video reference and comments are more of a backing to the stance that we should NOT lock ourselves into as strict a definition of Sciene Fiction as you are trying to define.

And so in closing all I can say is if a movie about alines invading the Earth is not allowed to be labeled Science Fiction by your definition of the genre then what movie can? Only those who demonstarte a techynology that while not yet a reality is not very far off and therefore may soon be science fact?

BTW – When you go to the YouTube link your provide on the Fenyman video there are some other links that looke very interesting as well that I plan to watch namely the 5 part series called the Trillion Dollar bet that is about the collapse of the dollar. Have you seen that series?

Not too many Science Fiction movies, because I hold the same opinion as other critics of the Genre. People have lost the talent to make a really good one.
I think “Gattaca” for example was a good one, but if you look at the popularity of Gattaca, you’ll find it’s not very popular. Is that because of the subject matter or is it that people have stopped looking to the art form of movies as a chance to grow in some meaningful way? If you have never seen this video, an interview of R. Feynman take a look at this particular story. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT0oyzoR_ik&feature=related [at least through the second part.

The important thing that I’m getting at, with the video, is that you don’t have to push this idea, it’s cool looking we don’t have to make it scientifically accurate. It’s fine to make a film with 15 mile diameter spaceships, don’t misunderstand, but please make sure you call it Science Fantasy or Final Fantasy, as some have begun to call the cross pollination of Science Fiction and Fantasy. By throwing it all under the buss of Science Fiction and imply their’s no difference, you not only insult the intelligence but misrepresent the art forms.

People become upset and confused by this and so they dismiss it, and one day no Science Fiction is being made! It’s not being made because it alienates people in certain ways. It alienates people from science and mathematics. Even to the point where people refuse to be interested, because they can’t see the pleasure in it! If you become engaged enough by the interview watch all five parts. It’s really interesting to see the man, who’s passion is Science, come to terms with things that he can’t get a rigorous answer for by the strict application of what he knows. Seeing his frustration and attitude, one begins to understand how people view his chosen discipline, looking equally perplexed and frustrated at his laws, facts, and beliefs.

I have an interest in how science and technology are represented in art and would like for it to be better. I’m old enough too that I can’t be bought by just an Adrenalin ride and to recognize that the squeaky wheel gets the grease…

Why do you even bother with SciFi at all. It is called Science “Ficton” and I am emphasing the “Ficton” part, and not Science Fact.

Based on your comments I don;t see how you can enjoy any film. I bet there’s not been a single movie (you’ve seen) that you haven’t found at least 1 probelm with, have you?

2010 was the sequel to 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Vic

Perhaps the following site can give you some perspective. It’s actually a little fun to play with…

http://universeadventure.org/fundamentals/cosmol-modern.htm

I still don’t understand what you are getting at with your rather lengthy and yet unclear comment (the orginal one). i get your point about a light bulb and how you feel that the SciFi genre should include only which is of scinetific fact or at least will be scientific fact in our life time but what has that gotto do with the comment

“..makes no sense for aliens to come here en masse. Especially in space craft that if they fell from say a mile up, would crash with the energy 10,000 times greater than the energy that the A-Bomb that destroyed Hiroshima generated. ”

First off where did that even come from? Why are you assuing that an alien craftwould have to crash or even if it did that it alone would somehow prevent an alien race from coming unless they knew in advance they would crash which I guess would then make it much more likely that they’d find a way around that (still not sure how you’d guarantee they’d crash just by coming here) potenial crash and still come anyway.

PS – I know the spelling & grammarare bad but its 1AM and I have several items to reply to so I am rushing.

Bluecollar the only real difference we have is that fantasy’s should be called fantasy’s and science fiction should be called science fiction and final fantasy should be called that. It is the premise of science fiction that anything shown shall in principle be interpretable empirically and rationally. If no energy exists to light a light bulb then the light bulb won’t be lit. Two times two will never equal seven even in science fiction. If Earths gravity is altered somehow then everything would be acted upon in the same way. As the alien craft, that by the way, can no longer hold themselves aloft come floating to the ground, the humans underneath it should be able to jump out of the way before it crashes. Does that scenario sound more like science fiction to you or final fantasy? I prefer fantasy because if the light bulb isn’t lit then the law of gravity reasserts itself at the rate of 32 feet per second per second…

Huh? Sorry but I don’t see where you are coming from with that statement. First off it is SciFi which by definition implies science that is of fiction so there’s no need for a SciFi like film to have to be realistic. If this were a documentary then yes I’d agree that we can’t defy the laws of science but when it is a movie of the SciFi genre then not only can we defy Newton but anything else we want. It’s also a good thing we do this for it is from the creative mind that the wonders in science come from. If we all decided everything had to be fact based only then not only would this be a very boring world but I doubt we’d have advanced as far as we have. We’d still be living w/o electricity and correcting those foolish enough to write plays about people sailing around the world. After all we all know that’s impossible b/c you can’t defy the Flat Earth laws, right?

Emmerich doesn’t need to do anything – 2012 made $250MM on its opening weekend.

Vic

Roland Emmerich needs to get real, instead of focusing on final fantasy scenarios…

NOTE: I posted this same content several times over the past few years anytime discussion of a sequel to ID4 came up. I did this mainly b/c of all the “can’t be done” comments and just so as to get it out before the actual story is developed so as to see if my thinking can come close to that of a paid Hollywood script writer.

REVIEW: ID4 ended with the aliens being defeated and the world looking towards rebuilding

Independence Day 2 – INVASION

[Opening Credits: Show scenes of rebuilding of various structures around the world inter mingled with scenes of earth scientists, engineers & medical people reviewing and or examining what alien technology was not destroyed along with review/investigation of the aliens themselves that did not get destroyed in the destruction of their ships. Fast forward to just under 3 years later (maybe less) where we see some (not all) of key infrastructure is back in place like the US Capital. We zoom in on a secret lab maintained by the US in an undisclosed location

White jacketed men and women are busy scurrying about the labs reviewing various alien weapons and technology. Absent from the scene are any of the key characters from the first film. We zoom in on 1 junior engineer in the far corner who is reviewing alien logs; a task we can clearly see he has grown weary of. All of as sudden he stops the payback, rewinds and replays the same segment several times. The camera pans in and we can see his face looks like as if he has seen the devil himself. The tech falls off his chair and runs out the lab knocking down various objects in the way.

[Scene Change] We are in the Oval office at the White house, Present are the recently elected US President (Bill Pullmans character decided to not re-run after his term ended and is instead helping with the rebuilding of America) along with his chief of staff. ] The phone rings and it’s the lead military liaison at the secret lab we were just viewing. We can’t make out what is being said but we do see the presidents face go from a generally positive expression to one of dread. Once the liaison is done the president says

US PRESIDENT: “Are you certain? How long do we have Colonel?..[pause]… Thank you for letting me know and let the staff there know it is imperative they complete their research as quickly as possible.” [The president hangs up the phone, looks at his chief of staff and says] “We’re out of time.”

CHIEF OF STAFF: “Already sir? But how is that..”.

US PRESIDENT: [ Interrupting his chief of staff ] “Something about a miscalculation in the temporal conversion something, something”.

CHIEF OF STAFF: “What do you want to do now sir? Should I call doctor”

US PRESIDENT: [cutting off his chief again] No. He’s about as useful as left handed driver to a right handed golfer. No, we must contact the rest of the nation’s leaders and arrange for a summit to discuss what we do next.

[Scene change: We are back at the secret lab with the same junior tech we saw before and this time he’s in the bathroom with a half consumed bottle of liquor. A co-worker comes in calling to him”

TECH2: “Why are you in here and what in the world are you doing with that? You’ve stayed on the wagon since we defeated the alien invasion almost 5 years ago so what in the world could you have done to cause you to fall off the wagon?”

TECH1: “Math, bad math. I knew I should have paid more attention in advanced mathematics. “

TECH2: “What does math have to do with anything?”

TECH1: “Everything. I was wrong John, dead wrong. “

TECH2: “About what?”

TECH1: “The temporal conversions. It’s not 1000 years, its 1000 days. “

TECH2: Oh no. That means that..”

TECH1: “Yeah, that the in less than {pause as tech looks at his watch and does some calculations in his head] OH god no! We’re not even looking at months but days now. In less then …”

[Scene Change]

And so at this point the story reveals, thru a series of scenes involving the return of several key characters to the US secret lab, that the attack on Independence day just under 3 years ago wasn’t the alien invasion but merely an first strike force designed to go in and eliminate the existing inhabitants and to then begin the terra forming process the aliens require to survive. It is explained is that thru investigation of the surviving alien tech found at various crash sites that the aliens come in waves with the first being the strike or elimination wave that gets the ball rolling while several years later the second wave arrives at the point when the terra forming is almost done and the process of occupation of the planet begins. What’s worse is we learn that the strike force or first wave represents but a small part of the alien race. One of the characters then asks “How much smaller are we talking?”. It is then explained that where the strike force had 1 ship for every major city in the world, it has been estimated thru review of alien logs found at the various crash sites that the second wave will consist of all of the remaining alien race and that from best guess numbers the scientists believe we are looking at 1 mother ship (not just 1 regular ship) for every city (not just major city) on the planet.

One of the characters, after catching their breath and coming back to reality asks “How long have you known and do you have any plans to do something?” The president (who has just arrived on the scene) cuts in and says while pointing an angered finger at the face of Jeff Goldblums character who reeks of day old alcohol , “We would have known much sooner if this one hadn’t decided to retreat to a bottle. Because of his absence our next best person took a guess and came up with 1 to many zeros so instead of expecting them in just under 1,000 years we can now look forward to our new neighbors in just under 1,000 days or sometime later this week.” At this point Jeff Golblums character throws up on the president.

And so what follows is the plan to organize the planet in a defense state, using the alien technology that they have salvaged and integrated into earth based weapons and locations. It’s explained thru the story that the one hope they have offending themselves from the aliens is the assumption that the first stroke force would most likely represents all or at least a major portion of the aliens military like force. This would logically imply that the bulk of the aliens coming would be no more military trained then in any other intelligent civilization. There is of course a catch that when it unfolds shows that the remaining aliens are not the non-military like group we had anticipated.

The rest of the movie unfolds in multiple parts like this:

Alien Arrival

Alien Attack & Engagement by Earth

Big battle on the planet as well as in space in ships

In the very end we manage to to…..

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