Open Discussion – June 17, 2009
Jun 17, 2009 by Vic HoltremanIt’s Wednesday, so that means it’s time for our weekly discussion post, where you determine the topics!
As usual – talk about whatever you like as …
It’s Wednesday, so that means it’s time for our weekly discussion post, where you determine the topics!
As usual – talk about whatever you like as long as it’s related to movies, TV or Screen Rant itself.
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gottarhyme wrote:
“My cat was bitten by a brown snake (one of the aforementioned 10 most venomous) last summer. Cost me $600 and he was on life support for three days! He’s OK now though, and he killed it, the little hero!”
Aw, glad to hear the little kitty pulled through. Kind of funny though when you think back on it, he battled the snake, defeated the snake, but almost died in the process, he’s expected to make a full recovery, lol.
And about New York, you must have gotten lucky, because I know several people who have moved there, and they have the exact opposite opinion… I would never live there.
And no, it’s not the law-abiding citizens you have to watch out for, but it’s the law-abiding citizens that would be affected by gun laws. See the word there? Gun *LAWS* and *LAW* abiding? People who don’t follow *LAWS* are called criminals. So therefore, gun *LAWS* don’t affect _________. You fill in the space, lol. A lot of people find this simple concept hard to understand, and I don’t know why.
And gottarhyme, I didn’t get the vibe that you hated America. Tell your friends LA is horrible too, I’ve been there many times, it’s a hell-hole, you can’t see the sky, you hear gunshots at night, people are rude, man, I’m so glad I’m where I am… Although we suffer from the world’s worst drivers, lol.
Ken are you aware of the ammo bill that polousy and die-ann frankenstien are trying to pass that regulates all ammo to have serial numbers. If the law passes it also makes anyone with unmarked ammo a criminal.
All unmarked ammo is too be turned in to law enforcement.
I must admit…I loved The Chris Rock comedy routine in ‘Bowling for Columbine’ when he said that:
“If a bullet cost $10’000.00, there would be no innocent bystanders”
I suppose it goes into the debate that GUNS don’t kill people, people kill people. I like that argument… I might add if the gun didn’t have a bullet in it, nobody would die of a gunshot wound…
The school I teach at has a rifle range. The kids do it for sport. One of the reasons I don’t send my kids there. I hate guns!
Our gun control laws allow farmers and roo and feral pig shooters to own single action shotguns only for farm purposes.. Why would anyone need a semi-automatic in their home? Those were all surrendered in 1989 after we had a massacre at a tourist destination by a madman with a semi automatic. It is worth noting we haven’t had a massacre since.
There is a lengthy process in order to get a licence if you need a gun as a sports shooter or a farmer.
Maybe we are lucky being an island. A bit distanced from everything…
Gottarhyme, what happens when you go outdoors and meet face to face with a pissed off Cougar or Puma.
Not only should you have a gun, it better be a big one!
I was out hiking near Jousha tree once and ran up on 2 coyotes. I was lucky I had a 30 Cal Automag. No I didn’t shoot them but the gun gave me the courage to keep walking toward them. They were looking for food and that silver thing I was pointing at them gave them a second thought. Lucky for me as my Car keys have only worked one other time.
I’m all for gun safty. Firearm training begins at home.
You know in the USA, many schools used to have a rifle range for marksmanship competitions, this is back in the day. How many school shootings did we have back then? Right, NONE. Now, schools are so-called “gun free zones” and post offices are “gun free zones” and let me ask you, how many mass shootings have we had in schools and post offices? How many shootings have we had in gun shows? You know there are gun shows every weekend right? More than one, but every city will have one every month or 2 months, and at any given weekend states that allow it will have probably like over a dozen going at a time. Basically what I’m trying to say is that these big conventions where retailers from all over get together in one auditorium to sell firearms happen all the time. I don’t even know how many there are every year, probably thousands. And at each one there are thousands of firearms on display, the majority of the people visiting there are concealed carry permit holders, so there are probably hundreds of firearms in the cars out in the parking lot. Yet, have we ever had a mass shooting at a gun show? If guns cause so much violence and people who buy guns are so violent, how come I’ve never even heard of a fist fight, much less of a shoot out at a gun show?
The point is, criminals don’t go to retailers or gun shows for their firearms or other weapons. They get them from the street. Right now you can easily get a firearm in New York City where it’s “illegal” to own firearms without a next to impossible to get license by getting it illegally on the streets through a dealer. It’s harder than getting drugs, but not by very much.
So criminals will have them regardless of what the law states. When you take the guns away from people to defend themselves, that makes them better targets. That’s WHY these people pick “gun free zones” like schools to do their mass shootings, because they know they’ll get the most kills without much interference since they KNOW people will be unarmed. They try that at a mall and there’s always that chance that there’s a concealed carry permit holder close by that would end it.
And funny thing is, that has happened many times, but you’ll NEVER hear about it in the news. Funny isn’t it? I’ve known about so many defensive uses of firearms that have saved lives that do not even get mentioned in the news. It’s only because it goes against their political agenda. They’d rather report on a police shooting that’s still under investigation to make it seem like it was not a justified shooting. Of course when it turns out the cops performed their duties by the book and nothing wrong has happened the news “forgets” to follow up on it…
I’m not saying that everyone should do the same thing, people from different places handle things differently, so laws should be different depending on that place. That’s why I’ve always believed that there shouldn’t be any kind of general law that applies to everyone as if everyone is different. I’ve always believed against giving the federal government more power, I think the Federal government should handle national defense and the mint and that’s it, the states should be able to decide what laws they have depending on their situation.
For us, criminals already have firearms and they are already motivated to use them. This motivation leads to demand, and where there is demand there is supply. Maybe criminals in other countries like the UK are already accustommed to commiting their crimes with knives and bats so there’s little demand for firearms there. So passing laws against our rights to own firearms will be a disservice to the people because it will not eliminate the demand by criminals for firearms, so they will keep getting them. So the end result will be that criminals still have their firearms while we will be defenseless against them.
And when I stayed with my friends in northern Florida where hun laws are more relaxed and a higher percentage of the population are LEGALLY armed, and we left our doors unlocked there, everyone was comfortable with everyone. But go into the big city where gun laws are strict, and you NEED to keep your doors locked. The difference is not the firearms but the people. Basically I’m just repeating that argument that guns don’t kill people, people kill people.
Anyway, I’ve went on too long already, I’ll shut up, lol.
@gottarhyme
I don’t think anyone here would connect your comments with the word “hate.”
BTW, one statistic that can’t be tracked is how many crimes are prevented in the U.S. because the victim ends up pulling a gun either in a parking lot, on the street or in their home. That’s my favorite section in gun magazines, where people share stories about how they were able to avert being victimized.
Vic
@Vic, it’s been a while since a study has been done about that, but there has been some in the 1990′s, the numbers will astound you. Look up defensive use of force. It’s somewhere around for every death caused by a firearm, there are somewhere around 80-120 defensive uses of firearms. That’s a pretty good ratio right vic? 120:1? lol.
I looked it all up a while back, I’ll see if I have the studies saved. Numbers are usually compiled using the NCVS which is a reliable source.
I think I read that same magazine Vic.
You bring up some impressive points on this Ken…
@Ken J
I wouldn’t be at all surprised at those figures. Problem is that averted crimes aren’t ever reported on the news.
Vic
Over 70% of overted crimes never get reported because honest citizens fear jail time for using a firearm to protect themself.
Thanks for the assurances guys, Daniel actually commented that I ‘hated his country’ I was trying to answer him indirectly without drawing his fire.
Maybe having the ‘right to bear arms’ enshrined in your Bill of Rights was fine back when America was a dangerous frontier nation…but keeping it there might have been a mistake. .A man who ‘lives by the sword, dies by the sword’
Australia was just as ‘frontier-like’ back in the 1700s when our nation was founded. We never armed our criminals. Heck, most of us are descended from convicts! ( My Great-Great-Great-Great Grandfather was an Axe murderer! No foolin’! beats a Mayflower descendant anyday
)
I wonder why we haven’t got the crime rate you guys have got? Per capita, we are a smaller country…and again, mostly from criminal stock! You would think that our ‘natures’ would tend toward violence, wouldn’t you?
I am absolutely positive that we have, for the relative size of our population, the same kind of nutjobs you guys have, but the important difference is: We don’t give them guns!
Vic…I appreciate what you just said,about the victims fighting back, but it sends a chill up my spine. I know criminals are desperate men, but to intentionally take a life, over a ‘possession’, money or a TV set… Is that what you really feel? It sounds like you guys are prisoners in your own homes waiting for the chance for some poor disadvantaged person to break in so you can shoot them!
And KenJ, you have made some extremely valid points. Maybe having a rifle range at my school isn’t such a bad thing…clay pigeon shooting is pretty harmless I suppose. Thats the point of ‘gun control’ isn’t it? Making sure that criminals find it hard to get access, and ordinary citizens not needing a gun to protect themselves.
BTW, I find that the idea of breath spray sprayed in the eyes, and a good self defense class has done wonders for my confidence. Just in case, you know?
Watch out, if I have an axe in my hand though… Mwahahahaha!
Not to mention, most people don’t like to go through all of the trouble of filling out a police report and being questioned and all of that if the crime was prevented.
I would report it just to help add to the statistics, lol.
@790 I love Midnight Oil too…The Lead singer, Peter Garrett is now a politician, our Minister for the environment! He sang about all those environmental issues, so its fitting, I suppose.
As to not having a rifle if a cougar or a coyote attacks me outside…Um, we don’t have any carnivorous animals here. Not one! Except the Quokka (a native cat) and the Tasmanian Devil, whch is about the size of a cat too, and shy of humans. Plus, only in Tasmania!
We have snakes and spiders, sure. But given the choice between a showdown with a puma or a grizzly bear, I’ll take the snakes and spiders. You can squash one, and chop the other to bits with a spade. Or..run away!
@KenJ..if you were attacked, even if the crime was prevented, wouldn’t you think that it would be a good idea to report it anyway? Even if the paperwork was a bother…it could help prevent another crime from happening.
What hope is there, for crime prevention if decent citizens don’t report a crime?
I know you said you would, ‘for the statistics’. Is that the only reason?
@gottarhyme
No, we don’t have the same type of nutjobs, trust me. Guns don’t magically cause people to turn to a life of crime. And I hate hearing you say “disadvantaged people” because I know plenty of people who grew up “disadvantaged” that never turned to a life of crime, and plenty of criminals that grew up in very good conditions. PEOPLE make the CHOICE to become criminals PERIOD. To blame it on inanimate objects (firearms) or circumstance is simply taking away from personal responsibility, which I totally believe in.
When I was around 12 or so, I was arrested for shoplifting. I shoplifted plenty of times before that without getting caught. Was it because I was “disadvantaged?” Was it because I had a bad childhood? Were my parents bad? No, none of that. Do you know why I shoplifted? Because I was an idiot and I CHOSE to steal those things. There is nobody and nothing else to blame but myself. And because I’m able to realize that, I was able to fix it. All of this blame shifting that is so popular now-a-days, all of this blaming the firearms, blaming their childhood, blaming their parents, blaming society, etc. etc. have breeded this attitude that it’s everyone’s fault but theirs. Of course nobody is going to change, there’s nothing wrong with them apparently!
I know this has been used before, but you can’t blame the fork for making Rosie O’Donnell fat. Once the people are accustommed to this culture of violence, taking away one of their tools will not change who they are. Take away the gun, they use a knife, take away the knife they use their fist. You see where this is going. It’s the people, not the tools. The carpenter built the birdhouse, not the hammer.
@gottarhyme, actually, non-personal crimes like robbery are rarely solved since there are no known suspects to start with. Crimes like murder tend to involve someone who knew the victim, so they have somewhere to start. Reporting an attempted robbery will do very little good in preventing future crime. I do think it is a good idea to report it anyway, but I can understand why a lot of people don’t want to go through the trouble. And another reason why some defensive uses of firearms are not reported was brought up by 790. The negative stigma attached to firearms and firearm ownership thanks to our “unbiased” media makes people afraid to admit they’ve used it against someone else even if it was 100% justified.
@KenJ. I hear you. I am of the same opinion, people choose to be what they want to be. That was what I was saying…just because I come from a criminal heritage, doesn’t make me a criminal. I have a choice.
I don’t blame the GUNS, I blame the nutjobs that own the guns! My point being, (maybe too simplistic for the American sitiuation, because it works here in Australia) Control ownership..no killings…or LESS killings!
guns don’t kill people, stupid people with guns kill people.
reading back on some of the posts and healthcare in our country, how is it fair that a family member of mine can’t get a real job otherwise his need for healthcare wouldn’t be covered, but non-citizens working illegally get all the free healthcare they need. how is that fair?
A lot of rhetoric and cliche seems to be flung around in the name of gun ownership…guns dont kill people, people kill people, cars dont create accidents, people cause accidents, bears live in the woods, stay out of the woods, don’t drink water, fish procreate in it…
I say, Guns dont kill, bullets do, lets give everyone a gun, and take away the bullets!
Just joking to lighten the mood. I know this is a very serious subject.
Actually when it comes to the discussion of guns, it’s typically factual arguments versus emotional arguments. All of the numbers show that the 2nd amendment in the USA is a good thing, but people will always resort to the “Oh, this little girl was accidentally shot with her daddy’s gun” *cue sad music*
Of course, while that’s tragic, they fail to note that while this one girl was shot, 100 other lives were just saved using firearms, 50 other little girls just died drowning in mop buckets, and 1000 other people just died in car accidents.
Note that I say in the USA, because that’s what we’re talking about. Like I’ve said before, you can’t hold your own country as the standard and think that what works for you will work for everyone.
Once you find a magical way to “control ownership” let me know, because here in the USA, if you simply pass a law and expect criminals to comply and turn in their firearms, then expect to hear your alarm clock ringing to wake your ass up anytime now because you’re living in a dream world. The only people who will comply with such a law are law-abiding citizens like vic, 790, and I. Criminals will keep it, demand will remain high, supply will remain high, just like drugs.
@KenJ Quote:
“Note that I say in the USA, because that’s what we’re talking about. Like I’ve said before, you can’t hold your own country as the standard and think that what works for you will work for everyone.”
I understand that…and what a pity that you live in such a violent society!
Guns don’t save lives, they TAKE lives, in my opinion, but I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I’ll stay here with my unlocked door and my peace of mind that the Police do their job.
I am not in the position that you are in whereby you have had a friend shot. I am sorry for your loss.
I can understand your point of view, while not necessarily agreeing with it.
Ken I can proudly say I have prevented 2 burglary’s to my house and one to my neighbors because of my gun. The simple site of it stopped the burglary instantly. I’ve had a Gun for 6 years now and have never once needed to pull the trigger, but have pointed it at someone 3 times. I would hate to think where I would be with out my gun.
I’m shocked to see that you like NY Gottarhyme I love my country and I’ve been to NY once aftter 9/11 to pay my respects at ground zero and I can honestly say it was one of the worst times of my life. So many rude people. I didn’t meet one nice person the entire time I was in that city. I’ve been all over the US and can honestly say that NY was my least favorite place. LA would also make the top five, but LA is held back from number one or even two because their are some nice spots in the city that are actually very pleasant.
@gottarhyme
I don’t disagree that guns take lives, but depending on whose life is being taken, some I consider as saving lives. I don’t care about the lives of criminals, only the victims. So when a robber or other violent criminal is shot and killed, I consider that a life saved because he/she would have potentially killed or injured someone innocent, which is a life that actually MATTERS.
I know some people sympathize with criminals, I’m simply not one of those people. If I see in the news something about some guy trying to rob someone, but was hit by a semi-truck while running across a street trying to get away from cops, I admit, I actually would laugh at that.
And you keep mentioning the unlocked doors thing like that’s so uncommon. I’ve already stated that there are plenty of places in the USA where people live in that level of complacency as well. In fact, the majority of the USA is like that. It’s only in the big cities where people seem concerned enough about security to always lock there doors. My friends from northern Florida live in a smaller town where just about everyone in your neighborhood legally owns a firearm and there’s no negative stigma attached to it. When I stayed there, I never saw them use the door lock even once. Not even for their cars when we parked in the parking lot of Publix. There were no cars stolen, no robberies, nothing, and we all had guns. So if guns cause crime, they must have been taking the week off that week I was there…
Those people in that city were the most polite people I’ve ever met. I’m a minority, and I didn’t sense any racism at all while I was there. But in the city, I see it all the time, and these are the people who publicly claim they are for equal rights. What a load of BS…
@Daniel F
Yah, I said the same thing to gottarhyme, everyone I know who have been to NYC have told me something similar to what you just described. I HAVE been to LA, many times, got family there, and that place is downright horrible, and you say NYC is worse, I can’t even imagine…
You know where I REALLY want to go? Tennessee. My friend went there for a while to help build hiking trails and whatnot, and said she loved it, the people were friendly, the environment was beautiful, oh man, I’m so jealous…
@gottarhyme
I would NEVER consider shooting someone over a personal possession – but if I or my family was put in life threatening danger in my home or on the street, that’s another story.
As a matter of fact in the gun class I attended they emphasized that very point – if someone is just their for the DVD player and is not an obvious physical threat, just let them go and then call the police.
Vic
@Vic
There’s a problem with that concept though. If someone breaks into a home they KNOW to be occupied, you have to assume they have a plan in mind for if they run into the occupants. If not, they would have broken into your home while you were away. Nobody decides to break into an occupied home and does not consider what to do if the occupants become privy to their activities. Using defensive force against an occupied home invader is not at all shooting someone over a possession, it IS in self defense of you and your family.
The law here in Florida states that if you use defensive force against a home invader of an occupied home, it is legally defensive use of force based on this concept. Of course if you come home from work and walk in on a robbery, that doesn’t count because the suspect didn’t break into a home that he knows to be occupied, then it is judged under the same standards as any other shooting, you will have to prove that you felt your life was in danger. But if he sees you and starts to run, obviously don’t start pumping him full of lead… lol
Vic not only what Ken said, but also it is impossible to know the criminals intentions. You can’t really know if he was there just for the DVD player or if he is there to take the DVD player and harm anyone in the home while he is there.
With that said I would shoot someone for my DVD player. The thing is that you won’t really have to. All you need to do is lift up the gun and point it and you and your DVD player are safe. 99% of the time the criminal will run away with a gun pointed at his head and you never have to shoot. That 1% that they stay well then it’s safe to assume they were gonna do more than take a DVD player anyway if they are crazy enough to stare down your barrel.
Lol. Well I’d love to see the look on the DA’s face when you tell him “he was taking my dvd player”.
The “in fear of my life” defense might not work in that case… Dvd players are what $50 bucks.