Open Discussion – July 18, 2014

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sr open discussions 2013 Open Discussion   July 18, 2014

As usual – talk about whatever you like as long as it’s related to movies, TV or Screen Rant itself – just remember to play nice. icon smile Open Discussion   July 18, 2014

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  1. Ok, I need to vent out here, because I’ve had it with people that know nothing about comics and its history commenting on comic related news. They just over react so much and are so easily misled… poor freaked out puppets…

    Namely the last three that got me feed up were: (i) the latest death of Wolverine, (ii) the rumoured cancellation of the Fantastic Four, and (iii) the female Thor and the black Captain America.

    (i) Deaths (and subsequent resurrections) happen in comics ALL THE TIME. There is hardly any character that has not gone through it. Sometimes it is echoed in the news and sometimes it is not. Wolverine for instance was killed by Magneto in Ultimatum (2009). There was also another more recent story line called Wolverine goes to Hell (2011). And guess what? Wolverine always comes back, even from Hell, because he is too loved to evaporate.

    Now onto the conspiracy theory guys: Marvel also killed Captain America after the Civil War story arc, so it is not like they have something against Wolverine because his movie rights belong to Fox. In fact, Wolverine has been arguably the busiest character in the Marvel comics in the last years. Apart from obviously being in the X-Men books (running X-Force first and then even running his own school after Schism), he has been in several Avengers teams: Avengers, New Avenges and Uncanny Avengers. He has been left, front and center. Even main character in the crossover Age of Ultron (with Sue Storm btw). Not bad for a Fox character…

    (ii) Cancellations of titles (and subsequent re-launchings) happen ALL THE TIME. The truth is that Fantastic Four does not sell as well as Spiderman, X-Men or Avengers. It never has. So again, instead of saying this is the evil Disney machine at work again, just buy more comics to support them if you feel for that particular collection. And by the way, they have given use to those characters in other titles having Mr. Fantastic as part of the Illuminati and the Thing as part of the Luke Cage’s New Avengers.

    I just can’t stand the people that act like if they own the character (Stan Lee complex?) when their contribution to its success is minimal or non-existent…

    (iii) Swapping titular heroes happen in comics ALL THE TIME. During the Dark Reign story arc, Osborn became Iron Patriot, Moonstone portrayed as Ms. Marvel, Venom (Mac Gargan) portrayed as Spider-Man, Bullseye portrayed as Hawkeye and Daken (Wolverine’s son) took on the Wolverine mantle. Of course everybody knows Winter Soldier was captain America for a while and there are many more examples.

    The son of Odin and Steve Rogers are still going to be around. With or without hammer, with or without serum, they are not done with those characters and they are still part of the Marvel universe. Rest assured they will come back sooner or later. They always do.

    Besides, Sam Wilson taking over the Captain America mantle makes as much sense as Bucky doing it, so this shouldn’t be seen just as a forced race change.

    Regarding the female Thor, we know nothing about her origin story yet, so let’s not jump to conclusions. This comic story could be good or bad. We shall see. For all we know this chick is now Thor just because she holds the hammer, but that doesn’t mean she is gonna hold it forever and it also doesn’t mean that the previous holder is going to disappear for good (as I said he is still the son of Odin). It is just a new title that might sell well or not and get cancelled. Time will tell. And with this I am not saying I am looking forward to buying this new title, I just don’t understand why it could bother anyone so much. If you don’t like it, just don’t buy it and end of the story. If you liked the other one better, you have since 1962 a lot of comics to catch up with, so you better start throwing a lot of cash around to complete the “good” Thor collection.

    • You’re right that this kind of thing happens all the time in comics

      On female Thor – my issue trying to call the new character Thor because they have the hammer (I get that they need to cos of brand/character recognition for the audience)
      But Thor is not Thor because of the hammer, his name is Thor Odinson and that doesn’t stop being his name just because someone else has the hammer
      Thor is not a mask or mantle to be passed like Captain America and the Shield

      • I could agree with you on that particular point but I reserve judgment until I see how they explain this in the comics. I wanna see what really happens to the original Thor first. I wanna see how they deal with him. Depending on that I might like or hate the new Thor.

    • Great rant Nightcrawler haha, i’m not too bothered about Thor being a woman I mean Thor was once a frog in the 80′s or 90′s (correct me if im wrong on the time).

    • +1

      nice rant :) very informative

      I hope the story is legit for lady-thor. If not the change could seem forced.

      Nobody would have cared about a change like this even… 5 years ago. The MCU movies have put these characters in the spotlight, so Marvel makes announcements like these and legions of fans of the movies (with a very limited viewpoint of the characters based solely on those movies) come out of the woodwork and rant and rave.

    • Reaction 1:

      @ those ones that say that they are gonna boycott Marvel, not buying comics, for things like this: no comic books fan that regularly buys Marvel comic would have that reaction… In other words, your boycott is meaningless because I doubt very much you are buying a lot of comics anyway… otherwise you would be informed and wouldn’t speak nonsense…

      • Do you think what I said could be true for that reason? I presented what I said as fact haha.. It’s really just a hypothesis of mine. But what do you think?

        • You have to be right about that, because obviously most of the people moaning about it didn’t even know if it was the comics or the movies (despite the article being clear on it).

          Thor frog in 1986 rules!

    • Reaction 2:

      @ those worried about what this means for the MCU: none is running out of contracts until Avengers 3 in 2018 (or perhaps 2019 depending on phase 3 final plans), so that’s a lot of years for these new titles to hang in there and prove themselves. They might not work and get canned. They will basically serve as market research, because ultimately, yes, they are in the money making business. This is an experiment, a test. It is a response to the diversity issue (more on diversity on my other post).

    • Reaction 3:

      @ those ones that say that they are just being lazy and that they should create a new female character from scratch: I have a question for you, how many comics do you buy of unknown new characters a month? Please… 9 out of 10 creative attempts fail miserably. You know it, I know it and they know it. That’s why they go for an established property. It is a bigger statement and it surely makes for more headlines. The female Thor announcement has attracted already a lot of attention which was the goal. The buzz might attract new readers and that’s all that counts.

      • Totally agree here
        However one point – 9 out of 10 creative attempt fail miserably – true
        But – 1 out of 10 succeed! – unless 0 attempts are made in which case 0 succeed

        Also given how they announced the female Thor character on tv and telling everyone before hand we’re going to make a big announcement this evening
        Do you not think that if they had instead come out saying ‘here is a completely new female character that is awesome’ the buzz would’ve still been generated due to method they used to make the announcement (on tv and giving a hint of a big announcement ahead of time) that the new character might have had a better chance of being a success than in the past?

        • On your first point, does the successful one pay for the other nine failures? The goal of the company is to make money and not just to leave a legacy. You have to bring into the equation the profit component and not just the creative pride. Remember Marvel went bankrupt so they learnt the lesson the hard way.

          On the second one, I don’t think the relevance/effect/echo would have been the same. I don’t think that would have happened if it wasn’t Thor.

          • The one success can pay for the other 9 failures if it is successful enough or can stand the test of time (if they are there for long enough they will cover the costs of the failures)
            Characters like Cap, Iron Man, Thor, X-men, Spider-man and the others they have, were able to over time make enough money for marvel that they were able to create their own movie studio
            With the likes of Spidey and X-men when they went bankrupt they had to sell movie rights sure but continued to make comics of these characters
            even movie rights to comic characters that weren’t doing as well in the comics like FF helped keep them afloat so the new characters don’t need to be as successful as iron man, cap or Spider-Man

            You do bring up a fair point well made though

            You could be right there about the relevance/effect/echo not being the same – though we will never know for sure either way now as they have made their choice

            • It is a very saturated market I think and it is very difficult to replace the old mythos.

              In any case, they (Marvel) have not completely given up on the creation of new characters. The Sentry (late 90s) was the last great one imo. They even published fake news about the author passing away and leaving all these comics.

              The Sentry in New Avengers, in World War Hulk, in Dark Avengers and in The Siege was absolutely brilliant.

              • You are right about the market being quite saturated – and I’m sure that does present a number of issues when thinking about possibly making a new character

                Sentry is a good example – but that was 15 yrs ago that he came in

                They don’t need to change the old mythos for new characters to be created -
                They just need an origin story, after all the heros we have now started somewhere are we expected to believe that the kind of circumstances that brought the like of daredevil, hulk, cap into being have suddenly stopped happening?
                people could still be having accidents or experimenting with new stuff that can go wrong to create a new super powered beings, or even there must be some eccentric billionaire that can try to emulate stark by using his money to become a hero for his people/city (New York has so many why not spread the love a bit)

                • Another recent one is Hope (first mutant born after M-Day) and main figure in the crossover Avengers vs X-Men

    • I don’t even read comics and I know that to be true, the fact that characters are switched in and out of different hero aliases. People need to realize its just new stories. Can’t keep having the X-Men fighting Magneto every week…

  2. Kofi has been banging the diversity drum for quite some time and I haven’t always agreed with his statements. In my view he seems to think that diversity is synonymous of success, but I think that might not always be necessarily the case.

    1. http://screenrant.com/comic-book-superhero-movie-casting-controversy/

    “superhero movie casting is, at its core, a pragmatic and business-oriented process”

    Exactly. That’s why pissing people off is not very useful and business savvy… Diversity is not the question, pleasing people is. The diversity approach actually only reinforces that goal: they add diversity to try and please more people, to make it more appealing to a wider audience, but within that, there are INDIVIDUAL good calls and bad calls. They should try to please, or at least not piss off, the die-hard fans, and make indeed a palatable product for the average moviegoer too.

    Examples:

    Did people really mind having a black Nick Fury? No they didn’t because Samuel L. Jackson had the charisma needed for the character.

    Did the Fantastic Four need to cast a black Human Torch? I don’t think so. The Fantastic Four have always been about family.

    “People like to fantasize that if Marvel Studios held the rights to ALL of its characters (like F4) then all would be well. That’s a nice fallacy, but Marvel Studios is probably the one place where they know better than anyone how problematic it is to sell a modern Fantastic Four – and no doubt Fox has had similar concerns about the overall viability of the property.” “It might seem strange and/or offensive to say this, but a story about an all-white family of superheroes just may not have enough wide appeal to make it in the modern global film market”

    Well, The Incredibles (white family of superheroes) pulled more than $600mm at the box office in 2004, so it can be done without forcing changes in the family. Yes, that was Pixar, which belongs to Disney, just like Marvel. Remember Fantastic Four can appeal to children too even if it is not an animated movie.

    2. http://screenrant.com/avengers-now-captain-america-thor-iron-man-marvel-movies/

    “… clearly Warner Bros. and DC Entertainment are angling for a Justice League that is more suited to the realities of earning box office profits in a global market.”

    Of course! Because if I recall correctly the “white guy frat party” of Avengers really struggled with “earning box office profits in a global market”… Kofi, I know you want diversity, but don’t make everything about it…

    CBM are adaptations of a pre-existing source material with years of history, they are not a clean Fast&Furious slate. I am sure diversity might bring some dollars in, but the lack of it doesn’t necessarily cripple a project at all. It doesn’t have to be forced. Everybody enjoyed Blade or Falcon as they are and everybody is looking forward to see Luke Cage and Black Panther as they are. More than campaigning towards switches, the campaign should be towards using the already existing diversity sooner rather than later.

    By the way, shouldn’t the Kryptonians be the easier ones to swap since they are from another planet and all? Would you swap Superman?

    So to sum it up: Is diversity as a general statement a good thing? Sure it is. Does that guarantee a well assembled cast on its own? Of course not. Is it always necessary? Big NO.

    • @Nightcrawler:

      I understand your points about the diversity casting and trying to stay true to the intent of the source material (the Human Torch/family issue particularly) but at the end of the day (ooo… never thought I would use that idiom), it’s a positive change and it gets people talking.

      Personally, I wouldn’t mind seeing a Black, Asian, Hispanic or Middle Eastern Superman but as you said, there is history. When the Idris Elba as Batman hoax was floating around, I could actually see him as Batman and wouldn’t have minded it… but I know many would.

      To answer your question… is “diversity” always necessary? I would hope so. While there is something to be said about homogeneity, a mix is always good.

      And with that… the Hulk should be Asian. :)

      • Well, that’s also the result of the creators being white and American themselves.

        I don’t complain about the superheroes being concentrated in New York for instance. It is the tradition and it is where they belong. I don’t need them brought to other places to be closer to other countries. Just an example of changing things.

  3. Sooooooooo, Fox is looking to buy Time Warner (which includes Warner Brothers, which included DC Comics). They offered 80 billion dollars and got turned down. I am assuming a bigger number will be thrown at them soon. I am thinking this is going to lead to one of 2 things happening if they get the sale to go through.

    1) They will dump the rights to X-Men/FF back to Marvel and focus on the DC comics characters, since they will be bringing in the braintrust behind them who are already in full swing, and they haven’t done well with the X-Men/FF franchises. They can sell those rights back to Marvel for a pretty penny and recoup some of the money they spend to get Warner Brothers.

    2) If they do not sell the rights back to Marvel, we will eventually see a Wolverine/Batman crossover in the movies. Marvel has no creative control over any of the movie rights at all, they may have some veto power, but not sure on that. Who wouldn’t want to see Batman fight Wolverine?? That would be an epic movie.

    This is all if they actually buy them out, but Rupert Murdoch very rarely does not get what he wants.

    • Yeah but I dont think over 700 mil worldwide with Dofp means they “haven’t done well” with their Xmen franchise especially that Dofp brought many old fans back and many new ones and its sequel seeming to shape up nicely so far.

    • If that deal materialises, I truly hope, for the shake of the comics, that they go for option 1.

      If Disney/Marvel is already making suspicious marketing posters for new comic lines (i.e. ignoring Fox characters), imagine if those superheroes are mixed with DC superheroes… It would be the end of them and they would be nowhere to be seen.

      I just hope everybody remembers what came first and cherish it. The movies are based on the comics, so let’s not reverse that order and end up destroying the comics because of the movies.

  4. ATTENTION Paul:
    Last night my post was removed from the ScreenRant board. Censorship is not a healthy thing on the internet, especially since it didn’t violate your posting rules. It was a bawdy comment about an actress hired for the new Star Wars movie. My comment was strictly rated-PG. There was no profanity or personal attacks. Please contact me regarding this egregious error. Thanks.

  5. I’d like to redact a comment I may or may not have made (I honestly can’t remember) about Shailene Woodley. I saw Divergent a few months back and really wasn’t impressed with her as an actress, like at all. Her performance just didn’t do it for me.

    Last night I watched The Descendants and she gave a crazy good performance in that movie. Woodley’s got chops. My bad if I said that she didn’t, cuz she totally does.

    • Check out The Spectacular Now if you want to see another great performance from Woodley!

  6. HOBBIT TEASER TOMORROW! Cross your fingers :D

    I have never been so excited…please do not disappoint me Peter!

    • YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • I’ve been waiting for something on this final hobbit – really enjoyed the first 2 instalments
      Can’t wait for this teaser
      Thanks for bringing this up

      • You are very welcome! I really hope it is a teaser like the one they put out for Desolation of Smaug. I would be content with that until the real trailer comes out in October :)

  7. I hope this new hobbit will be good. the last two were okay, but like most of the LOTR films kinda drag on

  8. Well as unfortunate as it is I had to draw a line in the sand today. I stopped after reading page 1 of the newest Avengers AoU article about Ultron and Vision.

    As much as I love keeping up with production stories, I’m just going to wait for the movie at this point. This one I feel is worth it on keeping spoilers and trailers at as close to zero as possible.

  9. Finally saw dawn of the planet of the apes yesterday
    What a magnificent film it is!
    Had me absolutely captivated from beginning to end
    Reckon its probably the most complete film to come out so far this year (I haven’t seen everything though) – few moments that made me want to cry, loads where I literally had a big smile on my face cos I was enjoying it so much, as the guys mentioned on the podcast a moment or 2 that made me gasp, just a fantastic all round movie

    Easily my top film of the year and it has been a pretty good year of cinema so far – not one film has disappointed me yet (and I did catch TASM2 in cinemas)
    My Top 3 so far
    Dawn of the Planet of the Apes
    X-Men: Days of Future Past
    The Lego Movie

    What is everyone else’s Top 3?

    • LEGO MOVIE!! I loved that movie so so much!

      I would probably say my other 2 would be Days of Futures Past, and How to Train Your Dragon. But this is just as of now, so many more coming out in the next 5 months! So many I am looking forward to at least!

      • I’m also looking forward to quite a few films between now and the end of the year (off the top of my head there’s Guardians, Hunger games and Hobbit)
        but just after half way through seemed like a good point to come up with a top 3 especially given what there has been so far

        Been giving major consideration to seeing how to train your dragon 2 but was busy when it first came out – could probably still see it, was thinking I might try it in d-box to go with the flight stuff (thought it might suit the d-box experience which I have tried out yet)

    • 1. Dawn of the Planet of the Apes
      2. X-Men: DoFP
      3. The Grand Budapest Hotel

      I’d probably put Raid 2 after that, then Cap 2.

      I think the greatest villain(s) in most cape comics are not Thanos or Darkseid or Joker or Brainiac or what have you, but rather the justice system and especially the penitentiary system. Movie universes seem to have a better time with that thing though, with the exception of Loki cause fangirl power and him being probably the only decently written villain in MCU.

      • Budapest was SO FUNNY.. I love Wes Anderson films. I want to show that movie to everyone I know.

    • I think my top 3 would be (and its constantly changing)

      1) The Grand Budapest Hotel
      2) X-Men: Days of Future Past
      3) Edge of Tomorrow or Lego Movie.. its hard to choose..

      Apes definitely makes the top 5 though! I LOVED Apes! This year has been fantastic for movies! I think 2014 has been a better year than 2013 for CBMs, action movies, and movies in general! I’m excited to see what the remaining 2014 releases bring to the table.

  10. Deborah Ann Woll from True Blood will be on Daredevil series as Matt Murdock’s love interest.

    • Typhoid Mary for sure.

      • Already stated she’s playing Karen Page.

        • Thanks, I just googled image of the actress and jumped to a conclusion. Didn’t read any press about it.

  11. Is anyone going to sdcc?

    • I wish :(

  12. @JLAvenger88

    I’m glad to hear that about Dawn of the Planet of th Apes, I’m heading out to see it in a few hours. I hope it’s as good as everybody says it is.
    (fingers crossed!) :)

  13. READ AND ANSWER PLEASE GUYS, APPRECIATE IT! :)
    If Marvel were to get ownership over Spiderman again, do you think Spiderman’s story/costume/etc would change and by how much?
    Also would you agree or disagree if he were to join The Avengers would it be a good or bad idea, or a big deal or not? Just wanted to know what you guys think

    • Spiderman plus Avengers would be a great idea and a massive deal.

      I dont think they would change the story at all, they would probably embrace ASM 1 & 2 as part of the MCU. A lot of people wondered if all the construction in ASM 1 was a result of the Avengers destruction. Osborne tower almost showed up.