‘Lost’ Finale Explained: Answering the Unanswered Questions
May 24, 2010 by Kofi OutlawIn our Lost Finale Explanation we address the questions that left fans confused and/or upset by how Lost ended its run.
[Update: We've added even more Lost explanations!]
If you’ve visited our Lost series finale review and discussion, you know that opinion is sharply divided over how one of the biggest TV shows of the last decade came to a close.
Some people thought the ending couldn’t have been any sweeter, while others are either frustrated or disappointed with how Lost ultimately wrapped.
However, there are those out there who are currently feeling confused about how Lost came to a close and ‘what it all meant.’ So to help these (snicker) lost souls out, we thought we’d at least try and offer some quick explanations of some of the lingering questions. Hopefully it helps and doesn’t just further confuse.
It must be noted that unlike sites like Lostpedia, I haven’t done years and years of research on this. I’m just a moderate Lost fan who happens to have a good mind for literary analysis. So here goes nothing. And in case you haven’t guessed already:
[MAJOR SPOILER ALERT!!!]
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THEY WERE NOT “DEAD THE WHOLE TIME”
I don’t know why people are having trouble understanding this, as it is CLEARLY explained in the final minutes of the finale episode by Christian Shephard (Jack’s dad). The original Oceanic 815 plane crash happened. Everything on the Island through seasons 1-6 happened. The “flash sideways” universe introduced in season 6 was a sort of stop-over point between life and afterlife (referred to here as the “purgatory universe”).
Each person in this “purgatory universe” created a reality for themselves based on their lingering issues in life – that which they could not “let go” of. For Jack it was Daddy issues; Kate, the guilt of murder; Sawyer, the quest to find “Sawyer” and be a better man; Sayid, the unrequited love of Nadia; Charlie, looking for something “real” in his hollow life of fame, etc…
Everyone was still attached to their Earthly concerns (we’re getting very Buddhist here, bear with me) – but when they made contact with those people they’d met on the Island, they remembered the journey and growth they had experienced because of the Island, and could finally understand the connections and “purpose” brought into their damaged lives by being there. With that greater understanding of themselves, they were each ready to “leave” or “move on” to the next phase of existence – i.e., the true afterlife.
WHAT WAS THAT FINAL IMAGE OF THE CRASHED PLANE?
Some people are convinced the final image during the end credits of the Lost finale was the “clue” to the characters being dead the whole time. OK, let’s think about this: The image appears during the closing credits, after the final appearance of the “LOST” logo. That means that the story had officially ended. Saying that the biggest reveal came while the end credits were rolling is like saying a movie’s climax happens during the end credits. Not bloody likely.
The image of the plane crash (if you look closely) has memorabilia from the Lostie’s time on the beach where they first made camp. Shacks, towels, etc… it was one part nostalgia (remember where it all began?) and also one part commentary on the circular nature of the Island.
Like the Black Rock ship that brought Richard to the Island (“Ab Aeterno“), or the downed plane with the heroin that had Mr. Ecko’s brother’s corpse inside of it (“The 23rd Psalm“), the remains of Oceanic 815 and the evidence of a small community built on the beach are just more monuments of the Island. The next time somebody crashes there, they’ll see that stuff and wonder what the “mystery” behind it is…
Then they’ll whine and complain about how unsatisfying the answer is. (“What? That’s how that mystical guy “Hurley” came to the Island? LAME.”)
WHAT WAS DESMOND’S POWER?
One of the biggest things people seem to be questioning is how Desmond was able to “wake up” from the purgatory universe and how he had the know-how to “wake up” the other Losties. For that answer, you really just have to look back over the history of Desmond.
Desmond (specifically through his connection to Penny Widmore) is a sort of “constant” in the show. No matter what happens, when, or where, Desmond seems somehow immune to the Island’s energy (which has electromagnetic properties) and has a sort of awareness that can transcend space and time (his consciousness shifts seen in episodes like “The Constant“). These “shifts” and Widmore’s explanation that Desmond is special because of his resistance to the Island’s energies, imply that Desmond would even be able to “shift” his consciousness back and forth between this universe and the purgatory one, catalyzed by Widmore’s team placing him in that huge electromagnetic machine in the season six episode, “Happily Ever After“.
So, it does stand to reason (at least Lost reasoning) that Desmond – after having his consciousness “shifted” to the purgatory reality – would “wake up” after encountering HIS constant, Penny. It’s another fast and loose metaphysical explanation, but one that (for me) still works within the framework of the show.
WHAT’S THE DEAL WITH THE ISLAND’S “RULES?”
Over the course of the show people have wondered about the mythology of the Island – where it came from, what it is and what are the “rules” that govern it and its mystical protectors? Admittedly, this is an area where the showrunners played things fast and loose, hoping that the momentum of the characters’ story arcs and the whole “good vs. evil” showdown would be enough to appease most fans. Alas, not so.
Season six of Lost did a great deal to semi-explain what the island was – a sort of container for a very important energy that seemingly links this world with worlds beyond… or something. That energy is represented by light and water, and if that light goes out and the water stops flowing, the world is basically screwed. Everything magical or fantastic about the Island stems from this energy, and many of the technological oddities found on the Island (the Swan Station from season 2) are a result of the Dharma Initiative trying to harness and control that energy (i.e., man trying to bend magic and mysticism to the will of modern science).
However, there are some things that were definitely left unexplained: Why did the Man In Black become a smoke monster when he was exposed to the light (was it a manifestation of his corrupted soul)?; What is the nature of the “rules” that governed certain aspects of the Island – who could come and go, who could kill who, who was healed from injury (Locke, Rose), who lived forever (Richard). How were these rules established and maintained?
The Jacob/MIB origin episode, “Across The Sea”, attempted to fill in that aspect of the Island mythology, but what we came away with were a lot of vague pseudo-explanations. The protector of the Island basically makes up the rules and once those rules are established they are set until somebody (a new protector?) changes them. This is the reason why the MIB was obsessed with “finding a loophole” in order to kill Jacob; it’s also why Jack was ultimately able to kill the MIB. Smokey was connected to the energy source, and when Jack had Desmond “turn off” that energy, Smokey lost his powers and was merely flesh and blood again.
Makes sense…doesn’t it?
WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE BABY MAMA DRAMA?
One of the earliest sub-plots of the Lost mythos was the notion that pregnant women died on the Island before they could successfully give birth. This was especially important during season one, back when Claire was pregnant with Aaron and got kidnapped and experimented on by Ethan, a memeber of The Others (“Raised by Another” & “Homecoming“). Of course we now know that Ethan was likely working with baby-doctor Juliet to help Claire – that is before Charlie killed Ethan (oops!) – and that Aaron was likely born on the Island without incident because Claire was already far enough along in her pregnancy before coming to the Island (just like Jacob and the Man In Black’s mother).
However, the pregnancy issue popped up again in season 3 when Sun learned that she was pregnant (“The Glass Ballerina” & “D.O.C.” ) and was a the prominent focus of Juliet’s flashback arch (“One of Us“). So whatever happened to the mystery of the baby mama drama?
Simple answer? Story developments made the issue a moot point in later seasons. Aaron was born fine, Sun eventually gave birth OFF the Island and Juliet died, even after she had no more pregnant patients to tend to. So really, when you think about it, there was no more of this story left to tell.
But does that excuse the fact that we never found out why pregnant women were dying on the Island? It might be bugging you, but I’m chalking this one up to being another random “rule of the Island.” Or maybe electromagnetic mystical lights just aren’t good for fetuses. Either way.
WHAT WAS WITH THE STATUE?
This is one Lost mystery I don’t really need answered. Who built the statue, why they built it and what did represent are all things you can probably find out with some historical research on ancient cultures. People who have done the research claim the statue represents a goddess or fertility or something along those lines, linking the broken statue with the Island’s baby mama drama. Personally, I can neither confirm or deny the historical relevance of the statue - if you’re curious, you should do the research.
As for the relevance of the statue to the Lost mythos: to me was evidence that the Island had been around for a long, long, time, and that people had been coming to it throughout history. So basically, it was a way to let viewers know, “This place plays a pivotal role in mankind’s existence.”
I’m not trying to look much deeper than that.
Continue to Lost contradictions and missing characters…
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Another loose thread – what was all this stuff about an infection? It was a big deal in the story early on – remember, the guys in the hatch had to wear yellow contamination-type suits, and remember they were making Claire (or was it Aaron?) take vaccine for this infection. It seems to me this thread was just dropped and never explained, brutha.
But that’s not such a big deal, brutha. A bigger deal (I think) is that I read somewhere that the authors swore up and down that the story was not a “dream” or “fantasy” that any character was having – because, they saw the movie “identity” and didn’t like it – but then, didn’t the final episode reveal that at least half of season six WAS a fantasy? (I mean, they were in “purgatory”, I guess, but still, that’s the same thing as having someone wake up right at the very end and say it was all a dream.)
And, if they are all dead, WHEN did they die? Did they all die in the nuclear explosion? That would explain why Juliet says something like “we can go dutch” while she’s dying in the shaft, and says it again when she and Sawyer recognize each other in the hospital/purgatory.
And, what exactly does “it worked” mean? Juliet says this to Miles, when he’s reading her grave. I think it gets repeated by others. I took it to mean that their plan – to prevent the “incident” with the nuke actually worked, because flight 815 didn’t (seem) to crash in the alternate reality. But, apparently it *did* still crash, because that alternate reality turned out not to be real. So, what “worked”?
I disagreed a tad with some of this analysis – I don’t think desmond had any “power” in the afterlife – he just figured it out before some/all of the others did and chose to spend his time trying to get the others to figure it out. But, in the end, they would all have figured it out in their own time.
I also HATED that Jack didn’t get the girl. Not cool. Sawyer should have been the one to stay behind. Brutha.
Also, I saw no reason why Eko, Michael and Walt should not have been in the church with them at the end. If Christian Shepard could be there (he clearly had no unresolved issues at that point), why couldn’t any of the other good guys? Okay – maybe Micheal would have to sit outside with Linus because he killed Libby and Ana whats-her-face. But, still, he could have been there. Also, was Ana whats-her-face in the church? She definitely should have been sitting outside with Linus if she was there.
Also, what is the ghost of Christian Shepard? In the purgatory place, its obviously the real Christian Shepard. But, what about in the Cabin? What about on the boat, when Christian appears to Michael right before he dies? What about the Christian Shepard ghost that apparently helps Jack find water in the early episodes? What about the Christian Shepard that Jack sees in LA during those three years that they spend off the island – that CAN’T be the smoke monster, because it can’t get off the island?
Also, if the smoke monster can be trapped by sonic fences, why not just allow it to enter the Dharma compound, then turn on the fences and trap it there?
Burtha,
These will be quick and dirty seeing that I’m in a hurry.
After reading this post I could wait to respond to it. It really blows my mind how some things are missed by people. Maybe it’s the fact that I’m the Lost Nazi and I’ve seen the entire series front to back three times… or I just pay attention more and am slightly obsessed!
They did answer flat out many of the questions you’re asking… they just seemed to slip by you.
Okay… as for the “infection”. It’s what happen to Sayid and Rousseau’s crew… remember Rousseau’s crew all went looney-toons and tried to kill her, then Sayid “went to the dark side” for a while before Desmond eventuay brought him back. Rousseau’s men went into the temple and came out with and “evil” brewing inside them. The same happened to Sayid after being placed in the water in the temple. So it’s safe to say that when Rousseau’s men went into the Temple the same thing happened to them. Doogen described what was happening to Sayid in season 6 to Jack… that was the “infection”. As for Claire… they weren’t trying to keep her from any infection, they were trying to make sure she didn’t die because she was pregnant.
I currently don’t have time to address how purgatory isn’t a fantasy world.
As for when they all died, I’ve posted it many times on this board. All that escaped the island on the plane after killing Locke lived out their lives and died much later after the events on the island. I explain in further detail if read my other posts. As for everyone else, they died when we saw them die ei. Jack in the bamboo forest, Boone after he gets his leg smashed, Shannon from a gun shot wound to the gut, Sayid went BOOM… and so on.
Glad you read my post on the “it worked” situation.
As for Jack getting the girl… Umm… he did… ??? Did you miss that? He ultimately is going to spend ETERNITY with her.
Eko wasn’t in the church, (not just because he had a bad break up with the shows producers) but because he moved on to see Remi immediately. He had no lingering issues, as he tells Smokie this before he dies, he has come to terms with his life. As for Micheal, if you didn’t notice, he’s still on the island, unable to move on with all the other lost souls stuck on the island because of what they did. That’s what the whispers are. He said it himself to Hugo. Anyone that isn’t there has either moved on and is waiting for them, or isn’t dead and will move on with other people that were more important to their lives. Remember that the purgatory world is just like a holding cell, a doorway which leads to the real afterlife where eventually all that “can” will end up.
DUDE! As for Linus… he wanted to move on with ALEX… he had some things to take care of… meaning waking up Rousseau and Alex… so he decided to stay. He still had things he wanted to work out. He just wasn’t ready to move on yet, most definitely not without helping Alex first.
The Christian Shepard on the island sightings were always MIB. As for his sighting off the island it’s said to hallucinations. I wrote more on this early in this post as well.
As for the Dahrma question of trapping him… there are a million answers but the one that comes to mind immediately is, the fences are controlled from the inside… all MIB would have to do is shut them off. The biggest and most important explanation, I also wrote on this earlier… Jacob didn’t want to trap him… he wanted to fix his mistake and destroy him.
That was quick and dirty as I said it would be… I can elaborate more if you’d like when I get another minute or to. I enjoy bouncing this stuff around… it’s part of the awesome gift that lost gave us.
Did they ever give an answer to the question “what lies in the shadow of the statue”?
Burtha,
It means “He who will save us all” … Do your research!!!!
Or just watch the lost untangled series on ABC.com they actually gave this away right after the season 5 finale.
Im back and addressed some of your addresses with me.
You can post answers here so we dont have to go back and forth tween pages.
It is interesting that you bring up the bomb and Desmond. Im a firm believer the final season should have started after Desmond was found running through the woods. Or at least I bet that is when it was originally supposed to end. However the cling of a cash register changed that.
Which in turn messed a lot of things up.
Also you state:
“Also, consider this… if that bomb goes off when dropped that means Jack kills himself… that’s something we now know Jack can’t do… or any of the candidates for that matter.”
Didnt the bomb that Sawyer “triggered” end up killing Sun and Jin? Not directly though indirectly? So while the bomb at the bottom would not be strong enough to kill them the reaction indirectly would. I dont care if Sayid running off changed that. (was it clear that he was no longer a candidate and who made that decision? as he was trying to cleanse himself).
Onto PURGATORY….
What are the degrees to hold someone back? For example why wouldn’t Jacks Mother be there? With that in mind are we to believe Jacks mother is in a different purgatory and had to wait for him?
For example if I am “attached” to two different groups of people and I die before anyone in the other 2 groups do I only have to wait for one group? What makes that group special? What if one group expires do I go with that group or am I also going to hold them up until the other group gets finished?
“When Jack asks why everyone is here now, Christian responds that “There is no now here”, and that this is a place they all made together to find one another, because the most important part of Jack’s life was the time he spent with these people, and that’s why they are all here; no one lives life alone.”
Where was Juliets sister? The main reason she got tied all up in this..
gah… I was hoping I would forget about LOST being away with work. Then the event is over and someone posts a 1 min clip….
O well
kate didn’t kidnap she made the boy very happy. Sayid paid his debt with his sacrifice. It did seem like Kate was the only one screwed in purgatory being a fugitive. Sawyer wasn’t time traveling he was just saying in sawyer talk that he wanted to be with kate . If he time traveled away from the others I missed it.
120 odd hours of your life you’ll never get back. Watch the first and last episodes only, it’ll make more sens that way
But how can the writers cram so much into a storyline, and not answer it. Why write ‘red herrings’ into a show that was effectively meant to be red herring in itself. 24 – that was a show with a load of stuff going on, they explain every detail, and have a good continuation of the story throughout the series.
Lost was interesting because it kept you guessing, but it was equally as terrible for the same reason – everyone’s still guessing because nothing was explained!
Lost series reminds me of The X files where due to paranormal phenomenon creator/writers dont bother to explain thing. They got a luxury to do whatever they want to do and that’s why some of the episodes were made just to make viewers happy without any explanation to whatever happens in those episodes. The approach where viewer is kept in darkness where things happen without explanation, questions are created but answers are not given is sort of a marketing tactic to force viewer to watch the series/episodes again and again (that’s why he would like to buy bluray or DVD), to ask his/her friends so probably other would also like to watch and understand, and try to create online communities where viewers would share their thoughts try to explain thing and ultimately make the series popular.
From that perceptive LOST is ok bcoz that is done here but the most illogical and stupid thing which i found in the series is that; while keeping the viewer confused the characters were also kept in darkness and confused (on the contrary the x files characters were not so confused as Lost characters). Give you some of the examples… In finale when jack, sawyer, kate and hugo met the Jacob and he was willing to answer/ tell everything then why they didn’t bother to ask all those confusing things they experienced and questions they had all the time like time traveling ? will they be able to leave island ? (Are they suppose to leave it in first place), are island demands of Jacob’s demands ? etc etc countless questions but as i said the most illogical and stupid thing the creator did while keeping the viewer in dark they didn’t bother to satisfy the characters confusion and if you remember after meeting Jacob they were still confused…… and many things different characters did which if they asked questions they would not do and the story would be quite different…….. Like if you remember when Jack, Sayid. Sun, kate etc returned from the island Sayid met and married with Nadia but after 9 months she got killed.. and Ben told him in her funeral that widmore killed his wife then Sayid who was an interrogator didn’t bother to satisfy his confusion that why Widmore killed his wife… just start killing people without asking anything and that same approach all characters used throughout the series… that’s why i knew from the beginning that i’ll never get what i want from this series and creators/ writers will drag the story the way they like totally ignoring what is happening inside the character’s mind.
Actually… Ammad…
Quite the contrary in my opinion. Take Sayid for example as you chose to. His wife as just killed… hmmm… I’m wondering how rational and logical a mind would be after something like that… I’m guessing not to the fullest extent… I’m guessing someone like Sayid would be looking to fill the hole it left inside him… looking for someone to blame. Ben gave him that. Sayid wasn’t about to ask questions, he just wanted to know where to point his gun. Time for interrogating was over, it was time to make someone, anyone pay for had happened. That’s why Sayid seemed so lost when Ben told him he’d killed the last of them… it’s because now he had to go back to feeling the pain with noting to fill the hole causing it with… Dude… it would seem your the one not looking into what the characters are thinking… think about it.
My boy Sayid…. MiB lost his chance with that one.
MiB: No just listen and remember back to that fateful day when your sweet loving wife was run down. Do you recall the person on that day that stopped you? Do you find it ironic that instead of stopping BOTH of you he chose just to stop you? These people may have had a hand in killing your wife but Jacob set it all up from day one. He wanted you back on the Island. The only way he knew he could get that done was to take away the only thing that kept you here….. Kind of funny how Jacob stopped you letting her die and Jacob is on the Island….
With those few words there is no way you could have stopped Sayid from killing Jacob there is no one he would not have went through to exact that revenge. And he was a Candidate.
Travis,
Just leave this point for a sec that what was in Sayid’s mind or why he started killing ppl.. Just give me one answer who killed Sayid’s wife ?? WAs it an accident (then why Widmore guy was doing in her funeral) ?? Widmore ordered to kill her ?? or It was Ben who killed his wife ?? According to my theory Ben was responsible due to three reasons 1) he wanted Sayid to come back to the island with him along with his other friends so he wanted to gain his trust so he played the whole drama 2) He wanted to kill Widmore ppl so that he could take revenge of his daughter by weakening Widmore 3) Ben clever smile which he passed when Sayid killed the bald guy (his first kill for Ben) with silencer pistol when Ben was chasing that guy ……… and there is no reason i found why Widmore was interested in killing his wife…. on the other hand his guy was helping Locke who also wanted to bring all his friends back.. and this is what Widmore also wanted… and what Jacob told him , just remember what he said to black smoke -locke- before Ben killed him in secret room………
So what you say who killed Sayid’s wife ?????? ……. If its not Widmore then whole story line would be completely different bcoz you are ignoring the Sayid’s ability to distinguish right or wrong when he feel guilt in himself.. Remember he was the first guy who tortured Ben and told others he is a liar and he is one of them on the basis that he never feel himself guilty after beating him… and he also said same thing when he met Hugo in mental institute and told him “What Ben says just do the opposite” !!…..then how he was supposed to believe Ben bcoz before and after killing Widmore guys he was still thinking Ben is a liar and if Sayid thought of doing opposite of what Ben said then he was suppose to meet and ask Widmore ppl rather than acting on whatever Ben demanded ???
I applaud the writing of these excellent writers..especially after an un-needed writer strike. However when Lost first began those writers freely admitted that they had very little clue where to go next after season 2. The problem was they went to soo many extremes they couldn’t pull it back together. MASH and Cheers were guilty of leaving too many questions unanswered as well…So did “Night Court”…which led to….spin-offs….Except for NC. So fear not Lost fans we will see some form of a spin off…I hope they don’t..but lets face it.. After “Friends” didn’t we all wanna know what happened to Joey?
-K
This happened after Life on Mars ended and it only went 17 episodes. I think the writers did a great job ,and you have the patience of Job. Now about those coupons.
No postmortem of ‘Lost’ has yet offered a real-world explanation as to why the series finale was such an intellectual, and creative, failure.
As someone who works in entertainment market research, it’s my view that Lost’s two, key players had new production deals in place, which required most of their attention, and for which the last season of ‘Lost,’ and its audience, paid the price.
‘Fringe,’ for example, appears to have been very time consuming to get up-and-running. Additionally, the multiple film deals that were moving forward during the filming of Season Six would also have been major distractions.
In my opinion, ‘Lost’ became a casualty of its creator’s success.
Sam W.
Hi,
While I could see how some of the analysis could function as an explanation for isolated parts, there were a lot of holes (just like in the show itself). My main comment is that you, in the beginning, referred to the the “sideways” universe as purgatory, where they go when they meet. However, wouldn’t it make more sense for the outlandish place where they are constantly being tested to be purgatory? Where (some)characters (as you mentioned with Eko) die when they come to terms with their issues (Shannon did not, Boone did not, Anna Lucia did not, Libby did not, I could go on). Instead, the normal life is purgatory? Lives built on their issues…but don’t we all do that? I feel like we all build our lives according to the issues we have, whether for better or worse. If your analysis you seem to switch between the island as purgatory (as in you Eko analysis) and the normal life being purgatory. Which is it? I don’t think it can be answered because there is no answer…the writers had no idea what they were doing. The more symbolism. The less more theories. The less people understand. The better is must be… right? Wrong. Some of the worst writing I have ever seen/heard.
Also, Where were all the other character… all the others…jacob… richard alpert…the dharma initiative…
Why did Boone and Shannon come back (who both left the island before walt and michael)… they didn’t really serve much in the whole thing….
why didn’t ben come inside?
Charles Widmore?
The writers wrote 6 distinct series it seemed like to me. Each season had it’s own take on the whole island thing. They couldn’t make up their mind… So they decided to make a mashup… First couple seasons were introduction of life on the island and the introduction of mystical elements…Then they began to answer the questions scientifically, Electromagnetism, Dharma initiative, ect. Then, all the sudden, they swtiched to magic. Light/Magic/Goodness/Electromagnetism all became interchangeable. And then, instead of answering anything that actually happened on the island…they went with the “it was all a dream” motif of an ending. Essentially, they all remembered the same dream together… and nothing that happened mattered other than the memories that they made and the relationships formed. The mystery is gone, because it never mattered in the first place…it was a “dream”.
Lost Writers, you disappoint. This is why you had less viewers on your finale than your pilot.
0/10.
Gene
Gene I think your theorie is good as far as hindu reincarnation goes. RICHARD THOUGHT THE ISLAND WAS HELL, and they were all dead but to Locke who got his legs back it was heaven. Shannon had quite a backstory with her evil stepmother. “Lost” to me was fantastic and I’m very thankful for the hundreds of hours of entertainment. We all got very lucky with the confluence of events. Great writing good to great acting, writing, a good story perfect location, actor chemistry. I would be surprised and happy if anything this good ever happens again on tv.
wt if all people are on purgatory then does the island really exists…? or is it a imaginative purgatory…
Richard was just upset and ranting… then came to his senses after Hugo spoke with his dead wife…
Mark145… the island was real. It wasn’t purgatory, the flash sideways was what everyone is calling “purgatory” for lack of a better word. The island and everything that happened on it was real.
It is more like Dante’s “Divina Commedia”. The main character (in this case characters) goes thru Inferno and Purgatory levels with help of another people. That makes more sense!
They all died in the crash. I don’t believe for a second that part is not true. Jack’s father said that everything really happened because it did. It wasn’t a dream but it happened after they died.
The title “LOST” is not indicative of actually being geographically lost… it’s referring to the LOST souls.
The cork was always there from the beginning of time and will be there for all eternity because it is the gateway to Heaven… to passageway to the light… the final resting place for the weary “lost” souls who died in the initial crash of Oceanic flight 815. They were not survivors.
Those people who had “issues” left to deal with were stuck on the Island which in this case is representative of Purgatory. The “lost” souls could not move on from this limbo until each one resolved the demons that plagued them.
“The light” is the same light that filled the church at the end of the last episode as Jack died. He was the last one to “let go”.
The reason things didn’t make sense and were not always explained is that they couldn’t be. This was obviously not reality. It was a place in between life and death. Heaven and Hell. Good and evil. Each show would have had to be 16 hours long to explain everything to any degree of satisfaction.
Debi…
While your theory is interesting… all evidence sides with that they did survive the crash. I’m guessing you haven’t watched the 12 minute epilogue that comes with the DVD yet? … I posted a link if you scroll down this thread… If they were dead then Hugo and Ben wouldn’t still be running the island… they would have “let go” as you say Jack was the last to… and also, if this were true then he wasn’t the last to “let go”… it would be either Kate, Sawyer, Claire, Hugo, Desmond, or Penny. Seeing that they all escaped the island as Jack (as you say it) was finally letting go. So… what actually happen was they did survive the crash. Jack in the bamboo forest (for real) Kate, Sawyer, and Claire (of the peeps in the church) escape on the plane and live out there lives and eventually die. I’ve explained this a million times in this thread with multiple facts that back it up. One being that Kate tells Jack how much she missed him… she talking about how much she missed him for the rest of her life before she eventually died.
As for Christian, he says the most important part of your “life” is the time you spent with these people. … Life meaning life and that’s that. “Some died before you” ei… Boone, Shannon, Sayid… “Some long after you” ei. Kate, Sawyer, Claire, Desmond, Penny, Hugo, and Ben.
Back to Hugo and Ben, if they were all dead and Jack was the last to move on then Hugo wouldn’t be running the island anymore… he would have moved on before Jack. THERE IS NO ARGUING that fact.
You should spend some time and read some of the banter between Aknot and I on this post… it spans the last three pages… it’d be fun to hear what you think.
Also… to my point and many others… there would be no purpose of the purgatory flash sideways if the island was infact already purgatory… they would have moved on straight from it… For instance Echo… he had no lingering issues as he told the smoke monster before he died. He was at peace with what he had done. If he was at peace there is no purpose for him to be on the island if it is purgatory… he would have passed on. The island was real, when Jack dies that’s when he dies in real life… he basically says this himself during his interview after the finale on the jimmy kimmel special “aloha to lost”. AND THE BIGGEST POINT OF ALL… IF THEY ALL DIED IN THE CRASH (think about this) then Christian saying, “some died before you, some long after you” doesn’t make sense… since they would have all died at the same time if they died in the CRASH. EXPLAIN THAT
If all of them died in the crash how come they could communicate with the people on the freighter? Those people were alive (at first), right? If you’re theory is right that would make them dead too.
One thing i noticed which i haven’t heard any one else point out was this: Desmond, Season 2: “I don’t know about you but every time i walk past that bulkhead wall my fillings hurt”. Then before Widmore puts him in the Electromagnetic room with the Tesla Coils either side in season 6: “Are you carrying anything metalic, keys, watch etc?”. His fillings would have been ripped out of his head like that guy in season 5.
I think the reason why Desmond’s fillings didn’t come flying out of his mouth back in season 2 was because the swan hatch had been built to harness the energy and control it (the numbers). In season 5 the energy had only just been discovered by the diggers and they didn’t know what it was which i think is why the digger bloke died. I hope that explains it for ya
Actually Valcasian,
What Noble is stating is Desmonds fillings should have been ripped through his head in the EM machine widmore tested him in. I suppose the simple answer is Desmond’s built up tolerance to EM is such that it somehow didn’t have an effect on his… lol… fillings… Widmore asking for metal objects was just a precautionary measure.
the god thing, the statue represents the god sobek “repairer of evil” and also fertile lands as in a blooming island (not really fertility as in babies), there is where jacob lives. the black smoke is a represents the god set (seth) hint is in the cloth jacob is making sobek v.s set the “smoke” on the cloth fighting sobek has a set face.
bear in mind that MIB said that Jacob said man are incorruptible and will “repair” them selves doing good in the end. and proofing that to MIB over and over again by bringing ppl to the island.
A better statue explenation, Tawaret (also spelt Taurt, Taueret, Tuart, Ta-weret, Taweret, and Taueret, and in Greek, Thoeris and Toeris) was originally the demon-wife of Apep, the original god of evil. Since Apep was viewed as residing below the horizon, and only present at night, evil during the day was envisaged as being a result of Tawaret’s malificence. As the counterpart of Apep, who was always below the horizon, Tawaret was seen as being the northern sky, the constellation roughly covering the area of present-day Draco, which always lies above the horizon. Thus Tawaret was known as mistress of the horizon, and was depicted as such on the ceiling of the tomb of Seti I in the Valley of the Kings.
In art, Tawaret was depicted as a composite of all the things the egyptians feared, the major part of her being hippopotamus, since this is what the constellation most resembled, with the arms and legs of a lioness, and with the back of a crocodile. On occasion, later, rather than having a crocodile back, she was seen as having a separate crocodile resting on her back, which was thus interpreted as Sobek, the crocodile-god, and said to her consort.
Early during the Old Kingdom, the Egyptians came to see female hippopotamuses as less agressive than the males, and began to view their aggression as one of protecting their young, particularly since it is the males that are territorially agressive. Consequently, Tawaret became seen, very early in egyptian history, as a deity of protection in pregnancy and childbirth, and pregnant women wore amulets with her name or likeness to protect their pregnancies. Her image could also be found on knives made from hippopotamus ivory, which would be used as wands in rituals to drive evil spirits away from mothers and children.
In most subsequent depictions, Tawaret was depicted with features of a pregnant woman, in a composite addition to the animal-compound she was also seen as, which usually took the form of pendulous breasts, pregnant stomach, and long straight (human) hair (from her head). As a protector, she was often shown with one arm resting on the sa symbol, which symbolized protection, and on occasion carried an ankh, the symbol of life, or a knife, which would be used to threaten evil spirits.
As such a protector, Tawaret was also given titles reflecting a more positive nature, including Opet (also spelt Ipet, Apet, and Ipy), meaning harem, and Reret (also spelt Rert, Reret, Rerit, and Rertu), roughly meaning sow. Putting emphasis on the more getting pregnant aspect of Tawaret’s protection, her cult centre at Thebes predominantly referred to her as Opet, wheras her cult at Karnak preferred the more motherly side, and so predominantly used the title Reret. Her cult at Thebes identified her as a form of Nuit, the Ennead goddess of the sky, since her constellation was always above the horizon, indeed was at the highest point. Consequently, in her motherly aspect, this lead to her, as Opet, being seen at Thebes as the mother of Osiris, who was more generally seen as the son of Nuit.
As the hippopotamus was associated with the Nile, these more positive ideas of Tawaret allowed her to be seen as a goddess of the annual flooding of the Nile, and the harvest that it brought. Ultimately, although only a household deity, since she was still considered the consort of Apep, Tawaret was seen as one who protected against evil by restraining it, and became known as (one) who is great, which is what Tawaret means.
When Set fell from grace in the Egyptian mindset, as a result of being favoured by the (xenophobically) hated Hyksos rulers, and gradually took over the position of Apep, as the god of evil, Tawaret became seen as his concubine. She was seen as concubine rather than wife, as Set was already married to the extremely different Nephthys. It was said that Tawaret had been originally an evil goddess, but changed her ways, and held Set back on a chain. As the goddess of motherhood, Tawaret was eventually assimilated into the identity of Mut, the great-mother goddess.
In regard to the “baby momma drama” the fact that women can’t come to full term with their babies can’t possibly be a ‘Island Rule’ because after when Juliet, Sawyer, Miles and Daniel travel back in time and join Dahrma Juliet delivers a baby the night after Saywers boss gets all drunk and starts blowing up trees.
I believe that the (original) hatch mishap caused this anomoly of babies that were concieved on this island not being brought to term.
I’ve just read that the man in black’s name was Samuel, just fyi
Okay, answer this, the two men in the swan station, did they exscape the killing of the darma? and later on where and how did the supplys get to the island?
Hey Ross,
You’re talking about Kazinsky (the architect)and his partner in the hatch (the one who Desmond killed who was also seen giving Sayid American money and setting him free while part of the US military). He wasn’t around during the purge. He came later… and think about this Ross… as for Kazinsky, someone had to push the button and Ben the others knew that… Otherwise the energy would build causing you know what… so yes, they left Kazinsky alive in the hatch to continue doing so. Then came his partner… then Kazinsky blew his own head off… and you know the rest… Desmond.
As for supplies to the island… we see in the preview of the extra 12 minutes of footage attached to the upcoming season 6 DVD that the supplies come from off island warehouses (Guam) where there are secluded workers that most likely know nothing of what’s going on in the outside world, just that they have to send food at certain times.
Plus… the gas that killed Dharma wouldn’t have effected Kazinsky anyways… he was sealed in the hatch.
Wait…
Radzinsky was there when Sawyer was there. Sawyer was there before the purge.
So that means Radzinsky WAS there for the purge. However as you follow up was probably inside the Swan.
While the hatch was created to stifle the event it also appears to have had “more” occupants. I mean the (and if I am not mistaken other doors) door had stenciled “QUARANTINE” on it.
So why do that if you and one other are already in there?
As for knowing the button needed to be pushed why not have an “Other” do it? Why take the chance Radzinsky could go coo coo for coco puffs and destroy the Island.
Ben in his logical thinking ways should have also killed him.
As for the supplies you would think the Swan would have been already well stocked as if they were dropping them at regular intervals there is no way 2 people could have eaten all of that.
So then maybe the “Others” were hijacking it. Then how was Desmond and Kelvin living?
I was talking about Kelvin who wasn’t “around” during the purge and as for zinsky I meant he wasn’t on Dharma grounds during the release of the gas. Of course he was there on the island, that goes without saying. He was safely tucked away in the Swan. As for other occupants, I don’t think so… it was zinsky for a long while until Kelvin joined him, then Des, then Locke and that’s it. And as for Ben even knowing about the Swan at that time is up in the air (which you hate). He may not have even known it was there yet until he gained control of all Dharma’s viewing stations? And honestly, if I have some dude down there pushing the button… and literally no way to get in myself short of blowing the door off, I’d just let him continue to push the button. It’s safe to say the zinsky was probably scared of going outside seeing that all of Dharma was dead. Ben and the others were able to monitor everything that went on in there anyways so I’d probably of left him in there to. Adding to that, why would Ben stick one of his own down there to push a freaking button all day when some other yahoo would do it. That would be like a punishment. He doesn’t want “his” people having to clean up what Dharma did… leave that job to them, cause that job SUCKS. As for the Quarantine, it’s a good chance that was Kelvin’s doing in order to keep Desmond from going outside. Remember, Kelvin wanted to leave and wanted Desmond to stay inside. He used fear of the outside in order to do that. Plus, if anything, it was simply an interesting little thing for fans to ponder. We know there was fear of infection on the island and that just added to it. Who knows what it meant it doesn’t matter in the end. Which leads me to my next point about how Ben got all his money. I’ll give you my answer a bit further down, but my rough laughable answer is a sarcastic “who cares?” all we need to know for the stories sake is that he does have money. Though I will give my explanation as I said in a moment below, though an explanation to that doesn’t change anything in the end and doesn’t help push the story along. We know that Ben has outside sources and he does leave the island. We know he had a hand in infiltrating Dharma, maybe he and the others continued to do so off the island? The point here is SOME of these little questions you keep pulling from unexplained things are silly and simple aspects of the story that don’t need explaining. We don’t NEED to know how Ben got rich, we only need to know that he is rich and that is that. He’s a creepy bastard liar… I can think of a million ways he was able to get money, none of which the writers needed to show us. I’m surprised you haven’t brought up how Widmore became so wealthy and powerful, after all he was raised on the island and spent the majority of his years there. Where did he get all his off island power???? Well, we know he had also been leaving the island, which was a big “no-no”, so he probably started acquiring it all along. It doesn’t need to be explained, all we need to know is that he has power and that he is rich. Spending any air time explaining these things would be a waste. Things like how Ben got rich have no baring on the outcome of the story. It wouldn’t change anything and or add to it. But if you want my assumption, I’ll use a few examples of how it actually was told if we just pay attention… seeing that Eloise was running the Dharma station that locates the island in the church it would most definitely appear that most of Dharma did eventually cease to exist. Seeing that Richard often popped up in random places off island and spoke of home bases in different parts of the US tells me that YES the others took over all of Dharma and took all there assets. That makes perfect sense also adding in that many of the others on many occasions said that Dharma is “no more”. Since the others are running all of Dharma’s equipment, that’s your answer, they took over, we see evidence of that all over the place. Final answer, the others took over Dharma. Now, as for the Army, simple answer, it’s not easy to find the island, especially when someone moves it… now that’s a giant assumption but again, it’s one of those questions that don’t need answered what so ever… it wouldn’t add to the story or help its flow at all. It was a reason for being for the bomb and that’s that. This things are nit-picks. AND finally for this reply, when it comes to moving on and who they moved on with and without. All that move on are eventually going to be with everyone anyways, so who they move on with isn’t as important as knowing that you’re going to see all your loved ones once your there. Everyone in the church is simply who they moved on with. The most important part of their lives was the time they spent on the island, so it makes sense to move on with the people that they spent that time with… they will see everyone else that was important to them as well, it’s just not who they crossed the threshold with. Plus that’s the story, we don’t know most their other family members, children, cousins, uncles… (whoever) these are the characters we know and care about and want to see together in the end. And think of it from their point of view, let’s take Sun and Jin for example, you just realize that there is in fact and afterlife … wouldn’t you think that this would make you extremely happy… knowing that life continues and everyone you left behind (their) child, will eventually be with you once they’ve moved on as well. Or also there is always the chance that kid turned into an ass being raised by Mr. Paik and didn’t go to heaven. These things don’t matter… we don’t need to know them cause they don’t change what happened. The beauty of it is is that they all ended up together. These are the characters we know and care about. Those in the church moved on together because that was there way to the place where everyone lives forever in eternity with all that mattered to them. Other people will get there to but in different ways and with different people. Going back to Jin and Sun, their child (sadly) didn’t know them in life since they both died before she grew up, so it makes all the sense in the world that she would probably move on with her own family later on when she finally passed. Moving on knowing that eventually the others that aren’t there to pass on with you, eventually will be.
Speaking of Dharma….
How were they being deceived? They spent all that time, money and man power, yet no one followed up when Ben wiped them out.
Are we to “guess” that whatever Dharma was doing out there continued to go on? That they lost contact and just “gave up”?
Speaking of the going ons… Who did Ben really work for? I mean he had to have had some kind of financial backing to cover his “cells” (butcher shop, etc) and other people.. Mittelos Bioscience was the “Others” cover company but come on… How did they back that? Magic from the Island?
Not to mention when the US Military was wiped out by the Others. Im sure the Army just “looked the other way”….
See what happens when you don’t answer all of your questions… people start finding more questions….. (@ the writers)
This thing is acting funny.
I was talking about Kelvin who wasn’t “around” during the purge and as for zinsky I meant he wasn’t on Dharma grounds during the release of the gas. Of course he was there on the island, that goes without saying. He was safely tucked away in the Swan. As for other occupants, I don’t think so… it was zinsky for a long while until Kelvin joined him, then Des, then Locke and that’s it. And as for Ben even knowing about the Swan at that time is up in the air (which you hate). He may not have even known it was there yet until he gained control of all Dharma’s viewing stations? And honestly, if I have some dude down there pushing the button… and literally no way to get in myself short of blowing the door off, I’d just let him continue to push the button. It’s safe to say the zinsky was probably scared of going outside seeing that all of Dharma was dead. Ben and the others were able to monitor everything that went on in there anyways so I’d probably of left him in there to. Adding to that, why would Ben stick one of his own down there to push a freaking button all day when some other yahoo would do it. That would be like a punishment. He doesn’t want “his” people having to clean up what Dharma did… leave that job to them, cause that job SUCKS. As for the Quarantine, it’s a good chance that was Kelvin’s doing in order to keep Desmond from going outside. Remember, Kelvin wanted to leave and wanted Desmond to stay inside. He used fear of the outside in order to do that. Plus, if anything, it was simply an interesting little thing for fans to ponder. We know there was fear of infection on the island and that just added to it. Who knows what it meant it doesn’t matter in the end. Which leads me to my next point about how Ben got all his money. I’ll give you my answer a bit further down, but my rough laughable answer is a sarcastic “who cares?” all we need to know for the stories sake is that he does have money. Though I will give my explanation as I said in a moment below, though an explanation to that doesn’t change anything in the end and doesn’t help push the story along. We know that Ben has outside sources and he does leave the island. We know he had a hand in infiltrating Dharma, maybe he and the others continued to do so off the island? The point here is SOME of these little questions you keep pulling from unexplained things are silly and simple aspects of the story that don’t need explaining. We don’t NEED to know how Ben got rich, we only need to know that he is rich and that is that. He’s a creepy bastard liar… I can think of a million ways he was able to get money, none of which the writers needed to show us. I’m surprised you haven’t brought up how Widmore became so wealthy and powerful, after all he was raised on the island and spent the majority of his years there. Where did he get all his off island power???? Well, we know he had also been leaving the island, which was a big “no-no”, so he probably started acquiring it all along. It doesn’t need to be explained, all we need to know is that he has power and that he is rich. Spending any air time explaining these things would be a waste. Things like how Ben got rich have no baring on the outcome of the story. It wouldn’t change anything and or add to it. But if you want my assumption, I’ll use a few examples of how it actually was told if we just pay attention… seeing that Eloise was running the Dharma station that locates the island in the church it would most definitely appear that most of Dharma did eventually cease to exist. Seeing that Richard often popped up in random places off island and spoke of home bases in different parts of the US tells me that YES the others took over all of Dharma and took all there assets. That makes perfect sense also adding in that many of the others on many occasions said that Dharma is “no more”. Since the others are running all of Dharma’s equipment, that’s your answer, they took over, we see evidence of that all over the place. Final answer, the others took over Dharma. Now, as for the Army, simple answer, it’s not easy to find the island, especially when someone moves it… now that’s a giant assumption but again, it’s one of those questions that don’t need answered what so ever… it wouldn’t add to the story or help its flow at all. It was a reason for being for the bomb and that’s that. This things are nit-picks. AND finally for this reply, when it comes to moving on and who they moved on with and without. All that move on are eventually going to be with everyone anyways, so who they move on with isn’t as important as knowing that you’re going to see all your loved ones once your there. Everyone in the church is simply who they moved on with. The most important part of their lives was the time they spent on the island, so it makes sense to move on with the people that they spent that time with… they will see everyone else that was important to them as well, it’s just not who they crossed the threshold with. Plus that’s the story, we don’t know most their other family members, children, cousins, uncles… (whoever) these are the characters we know and care about and want to see together in the end. And think of it from their point of view, let’s take Sun and Jin for example, you just realize that there is in fact and afterlife … wouldn’t you think that this would make you extremely happy… knowing that life continues and everyone you left behind (their) child, will eventually be with you once they’ve moved on as well. Or also there is always the chance that kid turned into an ass being raised by Mr. Paik and didn’t go to heaven. These things don’t matter… we don’t need to know them cause they don’t change what happened. The beauty of it is is that they all ended up together. These are the characters we know and care about. Those in the church moved on together because that was there way to the place where everyone lives forever in eternity with all that mattered to them. Other people will get there to but in different ways and with different people. Going back to Jin and Sun, their child (sadly) didn’t know them in life since they both died before she grew up, so it makes all the sense in the world that she would probably move on with her own family later on when she finally passed. Moving on knowing that eventually the others that aren’t there to pass on with you, eventually will be.
Aknot and EVERYONE else… if you haven’t read this post… read it… it’s a fantastic read… and (though it’s good either way) whether the claims are true or not it’s posted by …
Post by someone who worked in the writer’s room for LOST, from DARKUFO:
First …
The Island:
It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people’s heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a “Protector”. Jacob wasn’t the first, Hurley won’t be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him — even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.
Thus began Jacob’s plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn’t do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn’t take a more active role, then his plan would never work.
Enter Dharma — which I’m not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by “corrupting” Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben’s “off-island” activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the “Others” killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that’s what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn’t do for himself.
Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB’s corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That’s a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still … Dharma’s purpose is not “pointless” or even vague. Hell, it’s pretty blantent.
Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his “candidates” (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of “candidates” through the decades and letting them “choose” which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn’t. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector — I know that’s how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won’t answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.
In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he’d always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we’ll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on …
Now…
Sideways World:
Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least — because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer’s room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we’re all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it’s not exactly the best word). But these people we’re linked to are with us duing “the most important moments of our lives” as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It’s loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.
The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this “sideways” world where they exist in purgatory until they are “awakened” and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show’s concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own “Sideways” purgatory with their “soulmates” throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That’s a beautiful notion. Even if you aren’t religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.
It’s a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events — not JUST because of Jacob. But because that’s what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith — and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.
How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that’s THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.
But the writer’s took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways “purgatory” with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn’t allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died — some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley’s case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are “awakened” and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.
They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren’t in the chuch — basically everyone who wasn’t in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here’s where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It’s possible that those links aren’t people from the island but from their other life (Anna’s parnter, the guy she shot — Roussou’s husband, etc etc).
A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn’t go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can’t move on yet because he hasn’t connected with the people he needs to. It’s going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley’s number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It’s really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.
But, from a more “behind the scenes” note: the reason Ben’s not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for early Season 1,2 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn’t believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It’s pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church — but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church … and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder — the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ’s ending. And they kept it.
For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I’ve been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I’ve loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.
In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spiritual questions that most shows don’t touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story — even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.
Almost time for me to jet. This is an “old” post is it not or at the least a repost?
I will address this tomorrow. Time to sleep.
I found this on an older thread… but it’s a great read by someone who claims to have been in the writers room… either way it’s a really good read. He address alot of the moving on stuff and how the entire church scene was written after the pilot and how they stayed true to it… which is part of the confusion for some seeing everything else that happened seasons 2 – 5.
The Island:
That was all understood except for:
“He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him — even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.”
While I know he does not mean the Devil we know I understand it as an evil person. However Jacob did not need to kill the devil. Never once that I can recall (and please provide info to the contrary) did Jacob ever express that he wanted to kill MiB. It was jsut always keep him from leaving the Island.
The poster then follows on to say Jacob then brings candidates to the Island to kill MiB. Which is another incorrect assumption as Jacob plainly states the candidates are to replace him. Stating MiB corrupts them to kill each other AND Richard convinces Jacob to take a more active roll.. which makes no sense as Jacob is bringing these people to kill MiB.(as the poster states). what he just brings them to the Island and lets them run around like free range chickens?
Never did I think Jacob brought people to the Island to kill MiB.
Onto Dharma….
Dharma for all intent purposes was not brought there by Jacob. Heck Travis I believe you even made mention of this. Dharma was a wild card. They just happened to be there….
However lets continue on with this persons post… Dharma was brought there by Jacob to ….. kill MiB… However MiB knew this and corrupted Ben… MiB corrupted Ben is one of the only logical thing this poster has said so far. O wait he mentions an Island.
Still in that Dharma section we have “So the “Others” killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that’s what the MIB wanted.”
Then why didnt Ben or any of the other “Others” put a bullet in their heads when on the dock? The Others had multiple opportunities to kill the survivors.
********It is Pitch Black Outside I need to save this and continue later ****************************
Aknot
As for this post I copied and put up, I said it was a good read, cause that’s what it is… I’m not defending everything in it.
As for Jacob wanting to kill MIB… AKNOT ARE WE WATCHING THE SAME SHOW???
Most of your questions have made sense and beyond shadows of doubts I’ve understood why you ask them… lol… but this one surprises me. Especially since you and I have already gone over this.
Jacob says it himself in the episode before the finale in “what they died for”. He states that he brought them there to fix his mistake, to do what he couldn’t do. He tells them they are they because of a mistake he made. MIB.
So yeah, he’s bringing people to undo (kill if you want to use that word) what he did in creating MIB because we all know the rules prevent him from doing so.
Think of it this way, before creating MIB, Jacob DIDN’T want other people coming to the island. It was only after he realized what he had done that he knew he’d eventually have to find someone to come, take his place, and undo it.
Before the final? Yup when they were trying to make sense of everything.
OR.. could the mistake have been accepting what his mother bestowed upon him? Creating “himself” if you will along with the powers and abilities he had? You know the ones he was tired of…. You know since he cant kill himself…
See what I mean by being able to have two logical meanings with no indication as to what woudl be the “correct” one?
JACOB: Come and sit down and I’ll tell you what they died for… I’ll tell you why I chose them…and why I chose you. And then I’ll tell you everything you need to know about protecting this island, because by the time that fire burns out, one of you is gonna have to start doing it.
AND THE PROOF…
JACOB: You call him “The Monster.” But I’m responsible for what happened to him. I made him that way. And ever since then he’s been trying to kill me. It was only a matter of time before he figured out how, and when he did, someone would have to replace me. And that’s why I brought you all here.
AND THATS WHY I BROUGHT YOU ALL HERE…. to replace him.
Although they SPEAK IN CIRCLES…
JACOB: Hmm. You have to protect it from him… You must do what I couldn’t. What I wasn’t able to do.
JACK: You want us to kill him? Is that even possible?
JACOB: I hope so, because he is certainly going to try to kill you.
So since Jacob is finally DEAD he is no longer able to PROTECT the Island from HIM… so you MUST do what I couldnt. Kill him? Could be…. protect the Island from him? More then likely.
Reason being is based on EVERYTHING else. MiB wants to leave the Island. The only way MiB can leave the Island is if there is no protector. Since Jacob was now dead he did not do what he was supposed to do… PROTECT the Island. That was Jacobs only purpose. Even if you kill MiB you still have to protect the Island. If you let MiB live you still have to protect the Island.
Again if MiB/Smokey is soooooo powerful why couldn’t he corrupt someone before this? So logic would dictate it would take him that much longer to attmept to do it again.
And Jacob says I HOPE so… which may indicate he doesn’t even know if you can kill him or not. No first and foremost you must Protect the Island….
And since we know the beginning and end was already “known” Jack was NOT supposed to be the protector Hurley was. We can see how they Fudged that all up also.
Storms passed..
“Dharma’s purpose is not “pointless” or even vague. Hell, it’s pretty blantent.”
Dharma’s purpose was fairly pointless EXCEPT… they built the structure that MIGHT have taken the plane down, that had possible replacements for Jacob. However for that to happen Jacob would have to know they would have survived. (which dont even get me going on how they survived the wreck/crash) To know this he would have to have been able to see the future. If he can see the future he already knows how this all plays out….
Now this statement makes great sense.
“Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his “candidates” (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will.”
I concur. HOWEVER…. if MiB was the Devil (ultimate evil, destruction of the world etc) free will can take a back seat. Even so…. If I approach you and give you the choice you still have free will. Why didnt Jacob just be open and honest with his candidates? While it may not have worked during the first season im sure after about the 3rd season people would have come around.
Jack you want to save these people? You want to be the leader.?? Well the only way to do that (and not to mention save the billions of lives on earth) is to Kill MiB… Tada!
“Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector”
Jack didnt kill MiB. Kate did. Which at that point since Jack was Jacob and he hadnt picked Candidates Kate was no longer a Candidate… AND furthermore MiB was NOT MiB so a NON Candidate could have killed him which throws out the idea that only a Candidate could kill MiB.
“In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways.”
ORLY? How did he save Sun and Jin? And even if someone plays the “spiritual” saving card how were they spiritually saved? They wanted one thing…. TO be married raise a family without the boot of her father over their heads… They almost had it… Jack failed.
Travis, you have to admit that some of Aknot’s points are important to the story of Lost. He isn’t being nit picky, Aknot like other viewers want the whole story and not bits and pieces that have no connection. For instance Ben’s wealth. Ben was on the island since childhood, how could he amass all of those connections off of the island and the resources/wealth to execute his or the other’s mandate. We are left to assume too many things – the others took over dharma in its entirety on and off the island? That’s a big leap. While it’s easy to except Widmore’s wealth and standing in society b/c we didn’t get his back story of being an other until after he was introduced in earlier seasons as a rich industrialist. Later when he is introduced as an other, the story is set well in the past, Widmore’s wealth given the sequence in which the writers presented this character is a moot point.
Far to many presumptions have to be made to form a cohesive and concise story in many viewer’s minds. Too many questions are left unanswered and a big investment in time was made to watch and follow this series. It’s easy to see why people are disappointed and feel ripped off.
As for my 2¢, my wife and I both work in television. We are creative all day everyday. When I come home and settle in to watch what was my favourite television show. I want a complete and logical story where loose ends are tied up…eventually, much like when I read a book. I don’t mind thinking about aspects of the show but they have to sum up to something that is logical and digestable without leading me on a wild abstract goose chase which Lost did. There is no excuse for leaving viewers with a half baked ending – it’s fully scripted dramatic television (period). I am going to ASSUME that the writers took liberties and the producers and broadcasters couldn’t reign them in for fear of hurting their often sensitive feelings – I experience this all of the time.
Also, when watching Jimmy Kimmel live after the Finale, Matthew Fox made it apparent that the whole series revolved around him and his journey of atonement and subsequent ascension. For all we know, the last season took place completely in Jack’s head, which answers why all those people who should be waiting for their loved ones were able to move on when Jack arrived at the church – it was all a figment of Jack’s imagination that helped him find peace with himself inorder to move on. All of the people in the church with him probably had their own personal odyssey’s before ascending to heaven or wherever i.e. waiting for their loved ones to join them in the church of their minds. Lost simply took place, for the most part in Jack’s imagination.
Basically, we all interpreted the series differently. No one is right and no is wrong and no one will ever really know what happened. That’s shoddy story telling in my books.
Thanks for the comment brian… and I agree Aknot has a lot of valid points… but…
at least for Ben’s wealth, just watched the eplilogue here… http://c0up.posterous.com/lost-season-6-epilogue-new-man-in-charge … and i was right about all of Dharma being taken over by the others. 
That’s at least one score for the writers, they gave us enough to make the assumption that all of Dharma had been eradicated. Ben says it himself in the epilogue to the lonely Dharma workers in the warehouse when you watch more. 
… As I’ve previously stated it was apparent and made sense that there were sections of Dharma that just worked and never knew what for… as is made clear by the warehouse workers who are clueless about what they’re really doing. Kudos to the writes and to me for “assuming” correctly by what the writers gave us to go off of… Anyways, I just recently posted a long copy of a comment posted by a one of your fellow Television workers… it’s a fantastic read and explains perfectly why, when, and how the losties moved on.
OMG… that epilogue was awesome… all I have to say it… MASSIVE REVEAL AS TO THE IMPORTANCE OF WALT!!!!!
Funny that a few things answered in the epilogue are easily assumed within what lost had already given us. ie. the polar bears and how they ended up in the desert after being on the island, the baby mamma drama (funny how they straight up just say it since so many were having issues figuring it out). Even though Juliet explains it during the season plain as day then you just have to pair with a few other events and Wammo! you have your answer. To me, putting the pieces together is so much more fun. It let’s lost live on. It’s not bad writing, it’s what they decided to write… you’re argument should be “bad decision, I’m not happy with that”. They wrote it that way on purpose… to give fans something to continue with. The writing on this show was epic and superb.
THIS… They answered stuff that was more or less already covered…
“They wrote it that way on purpose… to give fans something to continue with. ” Is this another assumption by you? Or do they say somewhere this is what they did? See I always remember the writers telling us they will answer these things. Or we will see “why” something happened.
Now you say they wrote it purposely for us continue on with?
well you just contradicted what you’ve been saying the whole time…
“They answered stuff that was more or less already covered…”
EXACTLY my point… it’s all been “more or less” covered, you just have to put the pieces together!!!!
And my point about the writers is exactly that, they wrote much of it, hinting to things or leaving things for us to say, “AHA”!!! Saying that, yes, they purposely didn’t spell everything out for us. In my opinion that would have been stupid and juvenile. And honestly it would have been an insult to us as viewers if you ask me. IE.. the subtle hint, the little stab they throw in when Ben tells them he doesn’t have to lay it all out for them and they each get one question. Lost’s pull was to keep you guessing and making you think… the fact that it continues to is AWESOME!!
No Ive been saying the whole time there are things unanswered. They answered things that more or less have already been clearly answered.
Polar Bears. The room where the wheel was as indicated by Ben wearing a Parka was cold. The wheel when turned by Ben it poofed him to the same area (or it appeared to be the same) that a Polar Bear skeleton was found.
When adding 2 + 2 you get 4. It is a logical explanation based on fact. There should be no question in anyone’s mind as to why there were Polar Bears on the Island. However there were 2 mins of a 12 min “answers” clip giving us that explanation.
Walt… he was special.. we get that, that was told to us over and over…. How was he special? What “powers” did he apparently have? Why was he “needed” back? How could his powers and or him help his father? Nothing answered…. No logical explanation. Hell no explanation except… we need you dude…
Pallets being droppped…
Well we knew they were being dropped… However from Dee and Dum it APPEARS this is a regular thing. However are we to assume the Lamp Post is on fully automatic? Eloise (the only person indicated to be working the Lamp Post… hahahah thats funny OFF MY CORNER!!!) had been working there a long time to find the Island. You mean two bozos in Guam knew all the time? Eloise did not know about the connection from Lamp to Guam? Eloise did not see data being transferred from the Lamp Post to Guam?
So no I did not contradict myself. Ive always said some things have been answered AND as long as things are alluded to and there is a logical connection not needing a degree in quantum Physics Im ok with that.
I need help then… I saw the same thing you saw (different source) in English no subs and I really didnt see why Walt was so important… I saw where Walt has been… well no not really as he was in School last I saw and thought that was fine.
They did not say WHY he was so important and or WHAT made him so important.
Aknot…
watch here if you didn’t see all of it… as for now it’s all on there and able to be watched…
http://c0up.posterous.com/lost-season-6-epilogue-new-man-in-charge
SPOILER ALRERT:
I don’t want people to read this… stop reading if you want to be surprised.
Aknot,
As Hugo says in the van, paraphrased “you were always supposed to be on the island… it’s where you’re meant to be and you were never supposed to leave” … then he goes on to talk about a “job” with him… the JOB OF PROTECTING THE ISLAND of course!!! Walt was meant to be the islands protector…
Now see how is protecting the Island going to “help his father” which is what he also said? Which now opens more questions….
I saw it all… all the “easy” stuff that was already “guessable” and or explained in the show.
Dharma was (or appeared) very large. To be able to get the financial backing they did, buy what they had and do what they did on the Island.
and they just go poof? Leaving two guys in Guam with an unlimited bank roll to buy peas for 20 years after the fact?
I will watch again when I get home… However it seemed like a big middle finger to the viewers. Got you again… we answered questions you already knew the answers to.. HA HA!
I just watched the clip thanks. So I need to ask did Ben and on Ben’s orders Sayid kill all those people for Jacob? I guess if so that explains Ben killing Jacob. I mean he would have more reason than Sayid did for killing him.
your assumptions may have been right on some things but of course the writers can shape the way the story was perceived any way they want by simply writing or stating their intentions after the fact – that’s easy. A really good producer once told me the proof is what appears on screen, in Lost’s case alot of things didn’t appear on screen and we’ll never have an explaination. The epilogue is great and all but again it takes place outside of the televised series – more an after thought to answer a nagging question that I personally had several season’s back. Call it damage control by the producers and writers of the series i.e. the post you copied from darkufo. As a stand alone series, it sure needs alot of propping up by fanboys and extra scenes that never made it to the show or were produced afterward to cover the holes in the story. It’s still shoddy story telling, just the fact that they released the video you posted that wasn’t included in the series proves my point.
The epilogue was supposed to be in the final… they simply ran out of time… the final was originally only supposed to be 2 hours and it got stretched to 2 1/2 cause they need more time to show everything. Cuse and company said that themselves, “there was just to much footage”. Now as for the epilogue it wasn’t an after thought, they wanted to put it in to the final as I said but they said it caused problems with flow of the story and if you think about it, it really would have. And they didn’t release it… that was pirated, it’s an added bonus to the season 6 DVD. I heard it was leaked so I hunted it down. Simply some of us need something hand fed to us and some of us like to think about it. If you truly did understand television, the way it’s produced and the way things are developed, with a lot of cooks in the kitchen, you’d understand that what Lost did was nothing short of absolutely astonishing. As I’ve said many times in this thread, and you should understand, in the span of 6 years a lot can happen behind the scenes forcing changes and decisions and other things that are difficult to maneuver around. Things like actors being arrested and such… lol. The fact that they put together and completed such an epic tale is just amazing. So a few lose ends are left… for me that’s small potatoes and I enjoy making up my own ideas about them. And as we’ve just scene in the epilogue, sometimes… there spot on. You just have to take what you’re given and figure it out. Where you see a writer making up lost grown and covering their tracks, I see them saying, “wow, really… I’m going to have to spell it out for you?” As if giving up, sitting you down and holding your hand through the process. I don’t think it’s needed… because this is something that made Lost so special. It demanded the strict attention of the viewers and it demanded you to engage your imagination and creativity. I’m an animator and an illustrator so if you want to talk about having to be creative all day, please… The writers did an amazing job with this show and I think they gave more than enough to figure it all out, if people can’t formulate a good idea then they should stick to sitcoms.
Travis, you obviously have lots of time on your hands. And please, an illustrator/animator, you have the luxury of creating things from scratch and not work with the things given to you – bad performance by actors, continuity and the like. Don’t make personal jabs and back handed comments about myself or others b/c we don’t see eye to eye – that’s juvenile. Re. being hand held and lack of creativity, there is a limit to my suspension of disbelief, rational and logical thinking trumps fiction. Also, it’s very convenient how you pick and choose the points you defend and back up. Typical of fanboys – one sided hero worship. Btw, i love sit coms, drama, docs and lifestyle.
In the end, Lost entertained me and I salute the writers and producers. It was a big feat that may have been good in theory and will probably never happen again… or atleast until we/they forget and try to do something similar in the future with similar mixed results.
On the contrary, I’ll defend any point… as I have may times in this thread. You just haven’t read them all.
And I’m not attacking you. I’m sticking up for the writers that gave us such an amazingly entertaining show. The writers you’re attacking saying they didn’t do a good job. That’s a ungrateful “back-hand” if you ask me. I have no qualms with you. Aknot and I have been debating for a while now. It’s fun. I simply liked the show and have no hangups about how the writers did things. I give them all the props in the world. And yes, we are each entitled to our opinions. And no, we don’t always have to agree.
Travis I love this I really do… but for the love of Pete use line breaks!!!
Or is it some settings on my end that make most of your posts look like a wall of text?
nope… I get going and don’t stop… usually right from my phone so I don’t notice how long, and or how ridiculously hard to read it is… swear I just got vertigo re-reading one of my posts…
will remember to use line breaks in the future!!! 
ps… I love it to.
That’s at least something we can agree on… Lost gave us the ability to debate these issues.
Thanks again for the explanations .I like the theory about why they came together in the afterlife, that is they wanted to, and belonged together Ben was so evil that Sayid felt good about killing him as a child and the doc wouldn’t fix him forcing Kate to go to the others. So maybe he was more evil than Michael who made his one realy bad decision killing Libby,I mean she was not a threat in seconds. Bens plans for murder were all premeditated and evil. Still I am just as grateful and ready for blu ray time. i don’t see how anyone can regret being entertained. What was the tv alternative? Was Mathew Fox’s ego a problem?
So, I just got done watching all seasons of LOST. Cool show dude (as Hurley would say). One question I have and it might have been answered…. Where did the food come from that showed up outside the hatch? I think it was season two.
Cdog…
this question is answered in the 12 minute epilogue that comes along with the season 6 DVD. It’s footage of Hugo and Ben as protectors of the island… it explains a few things further in depth. I was happy with it cause my theory on the food and what happened to Dharma had been right. That’s always nice!!!
Here’s the link… hopefully the video is still up!!!
http://c0up.posterous.com/lost-season-6-epilogue-new-man-in-charge
okay… one thing that wasn’t discussed here was jacob’s cabin. what the hell was that? ben admitted to locke that he was bs-ing everything he was doing in there. he said he was just as surpised as he was when things started flying around the room. so why were they? and who was the old guy who appeared in the chair??? anyone?
Hey Puckett,
Actually this subject has been talked about like a gazzilion times. I’ll catch you up to speed quickly. The cabin was most currently being used by MIB. Ilana said in the end of season 5 that Jacob hasn’t used the cabin in a long time… which means it was at one time Jacobs, but Jacob then moved to the foot as we know. The cabin is where the bodyguards went first to find him. Now as for everything else, MIB had been using it to continue his “seduction” of Ben and Locke. We see christian shepard (mib) residing in it after Claire joins up with him. So this tells us pretty clearly that it was MIB using… adding to this point, when Ben first brings Locke to the cabin Locke hears someone say “help me”… we know now that MIB need locke to “help him” eventually kill Jacob as he was a giant part MIB’s loop hole. MIB used the cabin to as part of his master plan to corrupt Ben and gain the faith and trust of Locke.
Yes but if it was MiB why not work on Ben to kill Jacob? Ben was coming to that cabin to see Jacob which you are saying has been MiB.
So why didnt MiB just use the fact that Ben assumed he was Jacob to kill the real Jacob?
Which goes back to one of my original points of if soooo many people have been coming to this Island over “thousands” (I made that up could be 100s) of years why hasnt anyone killed Jacob yet?
I mean Ben and the “Others” were killing people left and right without a care in the world.
… Aknot, think about that for a second… it must be late where you are… it doesn’t make sense my man. You’re saying then that MIB should convince Ben that he is Jacob and that he wants Ben to kill Jacob/himself? (Your part right and this is actually what he was doing by the way and I’ll get to that) But I’ll continue… So that would be like me giving you a knife and saying “dude, please stick this into my chest”… “but not yet, we first have to walk across the island and you have to kill me in a foot where I’m actually living”…
…”and don’t ask silly questions of why I’m asking you to kill me”…
…”I’ll just be weaving a basket or something, walk in and just plunge the knife in my back”… There are so many problems with that idea. That idea states that MIB should convince Ben he is Jacob so Ben will kill Jacob… Seriously, re-read that.
See Aknot,
None of that works. But you are right in a way and you’re actually agreeing with me, you just don’t realize it cause you’re not thinking about it correctly. MIB is trying to convince Ben he is Jacob, that’s the point of him using the Cabin.
MIB IS pretending he is Jacob, it’s part of the corruption of Ben and it is whats making Ben so upset and jealous as well as trying to build faith and gain the trust of Locke. It’s actually the first time Ben is led to believe Locke is so special (so Ben puts a bullet in him) thinking Jacob is speaking to Locke and not him… making him begin to believe even more that Locke is actually going to replace him. Remember Ben has never heard from Jacob and now this guy, Locke, hears his voice? It only bothers Ben more.
So, Yes, MIB was using the Cabin, posing as Jacob, to help carry out his plan. There is evidence of this all throughout the series.
**So that would be like me giving you a knife and saying “dude, please stick this into my chest”… **
No what you would be saying over the years I have known you and came to believe in you is “IM JACOB”. Then you ask me to Kil Frank. Even though Frank is saying the whole time IM JACOB!
Who would I believe? Someone I have trusted all these years, I have followed and believed in? or someone I just met?
Come on Travis… you are better then that. Case in point.. you know me as “Aknot”. If we were to meet at a LOST convention and 4 people walked up to you and said “Im Aknot” how would you know who was really me?
oops Even though FRANK is the real Jacob.
Sad thing is im reading these transcripts of the episodes and they pull crap out of thin air and change them on a whim.
MiB wants above all else to kill Jacob so he can leave the Island. That has been what was said over and over by MiB…
Then he goes on to say the one thing he has NEVER been able to do is destroy the Island… I thought the one thing he was never able to do was kill Jacob?
Sp now there are two things he was never able to do… Although at this point Jacob was dead so maybe it was ok……
AND…. Locke saw Christian (MiB) in the Cabin. MiB gave Lock direction in how to save the Island (by moving it), if MiB wanted to destory the Island why not let Keamy do it?
CHRISTIAN: We don’t have time for this. The people from the boat are already on their way back, and once they get here, all of these questions won’t matter one bit. So why don’t you ask the one question that does matter?
LOCKE: How do I save the island?
Aknot… Oh my dear Aknot, what ever will I do with you.
You’re starting to go a little coo-koo. 
You’re misplacing and forgetting some of the facts in your own arguments. You seem so bent on figuring out how it wouldn’t work that you’re not thinking SOME your thoughts through. You do have some good arguments though.
Where do I begin…
… earlier you say Kate is no longer a candidate when she shoots Locke. Though you forgot to quote the part of Jacob’s speech from “what they died for” when he tells Kate he crossed her name out when she became a mother… but he goes on to tell her the job is still hers if she wants it… thus… candidate again.
As for MIB destroying the Island. You’re forgetting why he couldn’t. In order to destroy the island you have to remove the cork, in order to remove the cork you need a Desmond and you need to know what he is capable of, in order for a Desmond to move the cork you need to be able FIND the light were the cork is located, the only way to find it is if a protector shows you where it is. REMEMBER! MIB couldn’t find the light and he doesn’t have a way to remove the cork even if he did find it, until he learns of Desmond!!!! Thus he couldn’t destroy the Island.
And Keamy, is a ridiculous argument… since he can’t destroy the island, the only one that can pull the cork is Desmond. Plus, not that it matters, Keamy only does things for money… Aknot even you have to admit this argument and idea wasn’t well thought out. MIB doesn’t want the freighter to come because he NEEDS BEN LINUS to kill JACOB!!!! It all does makes sense. Why do you think MIB came to his aid when the Mercenaries had him cornered in the Dharma Barracks? … Because he needed Ben for his plan.
So for MIB (as christian) giving Locke orders to “save” the island, it was all part of his plan of deceiving him and part of his plan to eventually kill Jacob, it was part of the story arch. Again, MIB wants Locke to think he is on the Islands side, he wants Locke to put faith in him and believe in him. Locke turning the wheel sets his entire plan into motion. And as I state above MIB needs Ben alive so he doesn’t want the freighter to reach the island… it has to be moved and the island needs to be saved or his whole plan could once again go CU-PUT!
As for a LOGICAL evaluation of there being 2 possibilities of why Jacob brought people to the island, NO. It’s all inclusive. It’s all things that come with the Job. Protecting the island wasn’t a mistake, it was necessary… this isn’t the mistake he’s speaking of. The mistake was creating MIB. And since MIB is always going to be trying to kill the protector… you’d better find a way to kill him first. The way I see it, and I take this from Jacob NOT defending himself against Ben, and actually egging him on right before Ben killed him… is Jacob knew he had finally found his champion in the Losties… he knew they were “coming” as he says when he’s dying… then we see the distraught look on Locke’s face as he soaks in what that means. Now we know, as I knew then, he was talking about the candidates time traveling back to that time. They were coming. It was always a “your move” scenario of one upping eachother… Jacobs move vs MIBs… just like backgammon. Jacob new that this was it, he LET Ben kill him… he could have stopped him, but he didn’t, he practically asked him to. Think about it. Jacob stopped Richard… he surely could have stopped Ben from killing him – had he wanted to – but his plan was playing it’s way out. He was confident that he had finally found what he had been searching for.
Okay, now for the new epilogue… I think it’s possible that Walt was always the one that was to be the protector. As Hugo says in the Van, you were always supposed to be on the island and then speaks of the “job”… that job most likely being protector… or possibly taking over Richards place… but that was really already taken by Ben. So it’s not crazy to think Walt because protector and Hugo and Ben are able to move on eventually.
Sorry, storms, Crab feast and wife was out of town so I had no time to visit. Had this typed up on Thurs and the site was having problems..
No you see im not forgetting. Im going by what was presented (evidence) to us.
She is no longer a Candidate. Who “picks” the Candidates? The protector does. Jacob is no longer the protector when Flocke gets shot correct? So all Candidates that Jacob chose to replace him are no longer candidates. Jack is the new protector and must make that selection.
Only makes sense if Jacob got to pick his candidates the new protector would have to choose his (or hers). Kate WAS a Candidate until Jack took the job. Now it is up to Jack to appoint.
Thus NOT a candidate when she shoots Flocke.
Then why move the Island or have Locke move it? Im not “arguing” Keamy… Im taking that straight from the show word for word…
“The people from the boat” Keamy is the only name from the boat. So I took that. From Christian (MiB). How do I save the Island. Move the Island.
So all you are saying is MiB wanted the Island moved to show his dedication to the Island? Why not just kill Keamy that resolves him and the boat issue. Also it would have resolved some of the Candidate issues as well. I suppose MiB didnt see all of that being so busy convincing Locke.
YET MiB states he wants it destroyed..
LOCKE: Because I’m gonna find Desmond, and when I do, he’s gonna help me do the one thing that I could never do myself. I’m gonna destroy the island.
Could he see that far into the future?
The Freighter was never coming to the Island. It was already there with Keamy and crew. Keamy is dead there is no need to move the Island.
Also they were not there to kill Ben. I find it (again) hard to believe someone such as MiB had only one “go to guy” in Ben after all these years….
As for MiB and the cork… How does he know all of this? Meaning how does he know the cork needs to be removed? How does he know of the cork? If he knew all of this why not go after Desmond and have the cork pulled? Are you saying he knew all along what was down there what it did and how to muck it up? He was unconscious when he went in and his mother never told him. MiB said he has ALWAYS wanted to destroy the Island.. (dont even have me get on him, yes MiB helped create the Donkey Wheel….. creating the Donkey Wheel turning it and leaving the Island)
Then why did Jacob not actively attempt to kill MiB? So he was hoping the LOST crew was “it” so he let Ben kill him? You mean he placed the “fate of the world” on a hunch? Why not stop Ben from killing him THEN make sure one of the LOSTIES could do the job? All this time he was bringing people to the Island to be??? Replacements or MiB killers? I was never under the impression Jacob wanted any of his Candidates to Kill MiB until of course then end when they were trying to play catch up….
Now that I am thinking about it if MiB has more or less been posing as Jacob then Jacob really has not done squat….. Or do you think they were taking information from both and Jacob didnt want to to tell them there was another guy out there that looked/pretended to be him?
“As for a LOGICAL evaluation of there being 2 possibilities of why Jacob brought people to the island, NO. It’s all inclusive. ”
Really? You gathered this from him finally saying:
JACOB: You call him “The Monster.” But I’m responsible for what happened to him. I made him that way. And ever since then he’s been trying to kill me. It was only a matter of time before he figured out how, and when he did, someone would have to replace me. And that’s why I brought you all here.
JACK: You want us to kill him? Is that even possible?
JACOB: I hope so, because he is certainly going to try to kill you.
Jacob has brought them to the island to replace him. Jacob doesnt even know if he (MiB) can be killed by the Losties or not.
Jacob didnt say… Yes you can kill him… he said I HOPE SO. Again the Flaws in this great protector standing up not allowing the forces of evil to escape seems pretty apparent. He didnt even know if MiB could be killed so why bring people to the island to do that?
I can give you free will (which only boils down on the show as to choice) and or “choice” by laying facts out for you and you making a decision. If you say it means anything else Jacob screwed that pooch when he sat them all down around the camp fire.
So again why didn’t Jacob just lay the cards out in the beginning like he did in the end?
Right on Travis. Just thoroughly read through all your guys previous
posts. Awesome discussion.
Just wanna say that I agree with Travis in that I think Lost was an amazingly written TV series.
Remember when Miss Hawkin showed up in one of Desmonds episodes and ‘course corrected’ him, when he was about to change his fate by buying a wedding ring for Penny. I remember a guy wearing red shoes getting killed too.
How do you reckon she knew she needed to be there and how she knew what was going on? Do you think it is just meant to be passed off that Faraday would have discussed this with Desmond and recorded it in his time travelling journal, that was then passed on to younger Eloise?
And how does Jacob know how to stop sayid in the street at that exact time
so that nadia gets hit by a truck. Do you think Jacob can see the future?
If so, do you think that it is a ‘protector power’ so to speak, or do you think the donkey wheel lies at the core of the mystery?
– also i think i read earlier somebody couldn’t understand why the survivors of 815 didn’t die in the crash.
I think jacob said it was because he sought them out earlier in their lives (remember those flashbacks)and marked them as candidates with a
touch which would henceforth protect them.
@Sambo
In response to your question: “Do you think Jacob can see the future?”
I believe that Jacob has insight into the lives of the candidates he visited off the island.
***When Jack and Hurley found Jacob’s lighthouse with the mirrors, Jack mentioned that instead of seeing his own reflection in the mirror he saw the house he lived in as a child and realized that Jacob has been watching him his whole life.
-whether the mirror sees into the future or not i’m not too sure but:
Say for eg. the mirror only reflects current events then… when the island skips bak & fourth into the past and future, Jacob moving back & fourth in time could catch a glimpse of how the candidates are doing in each ‘place in time’ he travels through.
Perhaps Jacob was even cause corrected for leaving the island and going back, and the island made him constantly skip through time which might explain why he would appear and disappear throughout time.
I’d like to hear everyone els’s take on this
Also on that whole Sayid, Jacob, Nadia moment.
Do you guys think Jacob intervenes here to stop sayid getting killed by the truck as well?
Or perhaps instead do you think Jacob purposefully causes Nadia’s death
for the greater good, to set Sayid on a specific path. This would be strange though because old compassionate Jacob says the only reason they are even chosen as candidates is because they have nothing to live for. To intentionally kill Nadia would be to forcefully give Sayid nothing to live for?
Hey Sambo…
Thanks for taking the time to read all that. I’m wondering how much you did go through. Our epic discussion actually begins on the previous page of comments… hell, by now it may have been pushed two pages back. We’re most definitely having fun with it. I’m glad you found something in it for yourself to. 
It is always nice to find a fellow “fan” that loves the show opposed to a “fan” that loves to hate the show. 
… But we’re all in this together.
As for Eloise, hers is an interesting, in-depth, and provoking subject. I’ve spent alot of time thinking about her role in show and I’ve actually written a bit about my thoughts on her in this thread, I don’t know if you read it or not? I’ve posted so much on the last 3 pages since I found this blog. It’s one of the things I think is so compelling about the show. It continues to spark creative flare and thinking even after it’s all over. It’s made itself sort of immortal, much like Richard was (until the end when Miles finds a gray hair of course).
I found that moment incredibly endearing.
Anyways, as for your questions about Eloise I’ll get to them as soon as I can… I’m bogged down at work at the moment and I’ve already spent way to much time this week burning hours discussing things with my dear friend Aknot. The Eloise issue is a GREAT mind F&CK exercise. It’ll take a bit to get my thoughts flushed out on here in a manner of which they are easily understood through reading them… just don’t have time right now… only time enough to write that I don’t have time.
HA. I’ll touch a bit on the Jacob and Sayid issue as well.
after seeing that extra 12 min. bit, i assume that walt becomes the next protecter or maybe his job is to help the whispers move on, and that his specialness means, that he cn tlk to the dead(how else would he help his father) but cn he kill ppl too? i remember one episode where he was reading a book about birds and the next thing you kno one is flying into a window
So Hugo could only do it for 5 years or so? I mean Jacob protected the place for 100s of years if not longer… Hugo gives up after all that has been sacrificed in less then 10?
Well he could help his father by opening the gates of hell and letting him walk in.
See the issue here is since the writers did not give us enough about Walt we have no idea.
Did they say he was just special or he had “abilities”?
i agree jeanni.
Walt will be the next leader of the island. I think the scene in the epilogue between Hurley and Walt is meant to mirror the similar meeting between Jacob and Hurley in the taxi back in S05e04 – . One leader ensuring the next leader that they’re not crazy or weird, they are unique, and perhaps even destined to be the next protector of the island.
Also about the bird bit in Walt’s past. I always thought it was interesting that at the moment the bird hits the window, Walt is saying to his Mother “you’re not looking” over and over, while reading a book about birds… classic.
If for no other reason I loved the 12 min epilogue for the Walt round up.
Seeing Walt now in the same institute where we see him visit Hurley back in Season 5, echoing Hurley’s own path to becoming protector of the island. And just giving some proper credence to the reason as to all
Walt’s peculiarities. The Walt thing was one mystery where I couldn’t put 2 and 2 together to see any possible signifigance. And as always with lost once its suggested, it all seems so simple.
Oh and just in case you missed it, on the season 3 DVD deleted scenes there’s a scene where after the others have kidnapped Walt from the raft they have him locked in a room, and outside the door to this room we see a dozen or so dead birds in a pile on the ground.
Incorrect. Walt did not follow Hurleys path to get there. Hurley was there BEFORE the numbers. He was depressed and his mother had him committed.
Walt… Well we know he became a ward of the state assuming he has lost both parents. He was staying with his Grandmother and doing quite well with school.
Maybe he started having mental issues trying to figure out the story of LOST and that is why he was where he was… It made absolutely no sense in having him in the Mental ward… He was handling life quite well with all that had went on. Of course I still contend that 12 min thing was a middle finger flip off anyway.
“The Walt thing was one mystery where I couldn’t put 2 and 2 together to see any possible signifigance. And as always with lost once its suggested, it all seems so simple.”
So what ws the simple answer? He is the new protector? He is helping people (The only one his dad?) move on?
Or is he going to be the protector that has the ability to move people on?
AND Jacob was sneaky in bringing his candidates to the Island.. watching them for years…. Hugo just poofs out grabs one and brings him back? What if Walt says no?
Aknot, i didn’t say that Walt follow’s the same path as hurley, i
said echoes, i.e both being in the same Mental Institution, both possessing strange abilities, both probably finding peace within themselves once they embrace their destiny and become guardian of the island.
I cant believe you don’t think Walt becoming the next leader of the island is significant. To me this simple notion is the complete answer to the mystery surrounding Walts character. I thought this was the kind of summing up of each mystery that you thought was lacking. Something tells me even if they had of given us all the answers you still wouldn’t have been satisfied with them regardless of what they were.
Exactly…:)
And as Hugo points out, Walt was never supposed to leave the island. Being the protector and being there was his destiny. We see how messed up Jack’s life got once he left… because he was never supposed to leave. I also agree that the 12 minutes pretty much clears up everything we need to know about Walt.
Also,
To Aknot’s “WHY” questions… let’s take “why didn’t Eloise just tell everyone what was going to happen, that’d be a lot easier”…
Think about that for a moment and here are the reasons that wouldn’t work.
1. The losties needed the JOURNEY of the island, without it, there would be no story anyways.
2. No one would have believed her. For instance… Jack saw the island “move” with his own eyes and still didn’t believe it were true… do you think a crazy old lady was going to convince Jack of anything, NO… he needed to experience it all himself just as all the losties did. It was all part of their journey.
3. How interesting of a show would it have been if this is actual how it was written? With Eloise just telling them all what was going to happen… could you imagine how upset you’d be with the writers at that point!!!!
4. There are a million other reasons… but I have to get back to work.
I LOVE YOU GUYS.
“To Aknot’s “WHY” questions”
With the fate of the world you would have to at least TRY. Some people are believers some are not. That was a big point of the show. Locke would have believed her.
The next leader. Im assuming you mean protector? Or do you mean Bens position?
What ability does Walt have? Why was Walt in the Mental facility? We know why Hurley was there. He is brought back to the Island to help his father… Why is he using the name Keith Johnson?
Ben says he understands the difficulties of him going through being someone he is not…. (So who is he? or is this the Keith thing? Were people after him?)
We need you, you have work to do starting with your father. Hes dead.. Doesnt Mean you cant help him. (Jacob couldn’t help the dead how would Walt as the new Jacob do it?)
Hospital will just let him walk out? Walt was surprised to see Hurley so how did Ben, the guy that kidnapped and more then like the reason his father is dead, talk him to going outside and getting in a van with him??? eeeek.
He kept hoping that one day somebody would come back for him yet was happy to leave the Island with his father after wanting to stay the first time…
Youve ALWAYS belonged on the Island… again why?
We want to talk to you about a job…. what job? Hurleys job? Why is he tired of it already? Did he create a smoke monster and needs someone to kill it?
It makes no iota of sense. It is only there to say see we have answers…. sorta.
How is it significant? Was he a Candidate? I never saw mention of him being a Candidate?
* Why is Walt “special”?
* What abilities does he possess?
* How did Walt have knowledge of the hatch, and why did he warn Locke not to open it?
* What happened to him in “The Room”?
* What tests did the Others make him take?
* Why did he warn Shannon not to “press the button”?
* How was Walt able to conceal his true identity on returning to the outside world?
* Why was Walt not seen with the other survivors in the church?
The excuse given to him that he was being protected as were others was the best one. They should have let it go after that. Nope they had to bring Walt back to not answer the questions about him.
Aknot…
I’ll address these later when I’m not at work, but really quickly, yes, of course Walt was a candidate. I think that the 12 minutes hit at him actually being “THE” candidate possibly (if Jacob played favorites lol). It’s at least something to think about.
Anyways, I’ll address your questions later. Much of which are answered when you combine what happened during the show and the 12 minutes of extra footage. You just have to look at it and absorb it differently than you currently are. They’re not going to come out and just “say it” as you’ve always wanted them to. You have decipher what they’re saying and what it all means.
I’ll try to help with that when I get a minute later on.
sorry Aknot i did mean protector.
Do you know that Kevin Johnson is the alias Michael used on board the freighter. Walt’s got Daddy issues big time, and he is cracking up.
Not surprising really. Kidnap victim, dead mother, lost father. He has premonitions, can astral project himself and birds seem to like flying into stuff and killing themselves around him.
There is no why to these abilities he was just born with them. He like Hurley is in the institute because the mental illness he thinks he has isn’t an illness its a gift. Once he is on the island he will come to understand that. Just as Hurley went from thinking he was Nuts and seeing dead people to being happy as the protector.
Nope to the KJ. How did he know that or again was that the writers having fun?
There is no “why” to these abilities? So he just has them…. we dont really know what they are, how he got them, why he may have them and we just use them as a crutch when we cant logically (even with unbelievable stuff, aliens, ufos, bigfoot, etc can be at least explained.. you still dont have to believe) explain something…
But he shouldnt crack up as he has these abiities.. Cant these abilities let him know? See I Think they should have. What makes my explaination incorrect and yours not? I mean the writers did not explain them so its up to us…
Again crappy writing.
Hurley commited himself. Walt speaking the truth probably got commited? However why not show his powers to his grandmother at the very least as not to get commited?
To use another Star Wars analogy, I personally just accepted everyone’s “gifts” in the same way that I accepted what “the force” was (until they ruined it in the newer movies). Just like some people have a knack for playing the piano, hitting a tennis ball, etc. But, I can understand asking the question . . .
Sorry, i believe it was the Season 5 finale that showed the meeting
between Jacob and Hurley in the Taxi, just to correct my previous post.
Also hi to you too Travis. You were right, i had only read a third of your guys’ conversation. Had to go back and do a bit more reading!
Would love to hear your thoughts on some of those finer points when u get
the time.
I think Lost was such a great TV show particularly because of the endless discussions it can generate, (and still does) and that I have been able to share with friends ever since season 1 took off.
Why did faradays mother pressure him to go to the island when she knew her younger self was going to kill him?! Was this ever explained?
Thanks
Hey Scott…
Short answer yes… this was PART of the entire reason she did what she did the entire show… it’s what happened and it’s what had to happen for things to end up the way they did. Eloise explains it best when she tells Desmond how time will course correct itself. This is why she cries when she comes out of the kitchen and sits next to Daniel when he’s a child playing the piano. I commented on this earlier in this thread… this is when the memories first come to her and she knows what she will eventually… actually, what she has already done. Eloise also talks to Widmore about sacrifice… when they’re outside the hospital after Des is shot… she’s talking about the sacrifice of her son’s life for the greater good of … well the world. Without Daniel, Desmond dies… if Desmond dies we all do. So that’s sort of the simple run down. Daniel had to go to the island… it was his destiny as was all the losties… Eloise had to live with knowing that she would kill her son and she would send him knowing it would happen. No wonder she was such a B i t c h.
“This is why she cries when she comes out of the kitchen and sits next to Daniel when he’s a child playing the piano.”
“Without Daniel, Desmond dies… if Desmond dies we all do.”
Wait if she knows all of this why not tell people? You know the people that are directly involved.
So she knows…. Desmond is the one that can remove the cork allowing MiB to be killed? And that if MiB is not killed bad things will happen? So she knows for the greater good she had to kill he rown son yet would not tell anyone to make it easier?? She had to let other people suffer? Then why “help” at all? Why not let it all go to helkl in a hand basket?
Speaking of bad things…. What would happen? Sorry Mr. MiB only wanted to leave the Island. The only reason he was painted as being bad was he was being held against his will.
Since mother was dead when MiB became MiB how does anyone know what would have happened if he left the island? Since she picked Jacob why not just let her other son go? She ha dto see he was never coming around….
Was just thinking, if Eloise had Faraday’s journal from the future,
and the journal contains notes about Desmond, then surely both she and Widmore had foreknowledge of the man known as Desmond Hume, before
Desmond ever meets Penelope.
Which made me think. Exactly how much is in Faraday’s journal?
It’s possible that Widmore is actually privy to the knowledge that
Desmond is to arrive on the island by sailing in a race around the world run by he, himself, Charles Widmore. And then, like Eloise, goes through the motions of playing out this future.
So when Charles returns to the mainland after he is evicted from the island by Ben, he waits until the year foretold in the Journal and launches his race around the world, which Desmond ends up doing because
he wants to prove his worth for Widmore’s daughter.
So when Charles meets Desmond for the first time (when Desmond applies
for a job but then tells Widmore he is dating his daughter) Widmore must
either be :
A – surprised that THE Desmond Hume has finally shown up, and
is dating his daughter none the less, and subsequently preys on Desmond’s
sense of honor to steer him away from his daughter, and towards the race.
OR
B – not surprised at all, because not only does Widmore already know that Desmond is dating his daughter, but in fact he was the one who arranged their meeting to begin with, using his daughter as bait.
Think about it.
Penny and Desmond meet when she does a favor for her father, picking up the expensive wine he buys from a Monastery.
Charles sends his daughter to get the wine because he knows Desmond is there, because the head abbot is old friends with Eloise (as shown by the photo on the head abbot’s desk, in the Season 3 episode Catch 22).
Good enough friends even for him to arrange with the head abbot to not only fire Desmond (which would explain his somewhat abrupt dismissal), but to also ask Desmond to help Penny load up the wine. Does Widmore know that when the two meet they will fall in love, because the journal has foretold it?
All comes down to how much is in that journal I suppose.
Hey Samboo…
Awesome stuff my friend. I really like the way your head wraps around things. It’s tailored perfectly for a show that demands such critical and creative thinking.
I wish I wasn’t so busy with work right now… I’d love to comment further on this and I still owe you some more Eloise comments. 
… Anyways… I have a whole bunch of comments for this, I’ll get to them as soon as possible!!! 
There was no indication that the journal had information as intricate as that. Meaning the whos, the wheres and the whens.
Again if this stuff is going to happen (Whats done is done and course correction) it is going to happen anyway. Why “push” it, and if you are going to nudge/push it why not flat out just tell the people involved?
So either Course correction happens or it doesnt.. you cant have both.
Hey Guys
Great discussion! Read all of it.
I have to admit, the Lost finale left me scratching my head but after reading many many explanations, it all started to come together. Travis, I just want to commend you on your analysis.
Aside from your own, there’s only 3 other blogs who’ve managed to decode the mysteries of Lost with such accuracy in terms of what really makes logical sense & ties the clues together.
There’s another brilliant blog where this guy really puts the island time travelling into perspective. Where many things are explained: i.e the nose bleeds, the Tunisia portal, why some people can get back to the island and other can’t, why Locke had to die, Desmond’s ability to shift his “conciousness” back & fourth from his past self & future self + purgatory self, among other things.
]
[i lost the link tho sorry
There is however one question that no-one seems to answer.
*****What happened to Sa-eed when he came back to life in that pool of water inside the Temple?
Then the Miyagi Asian guy tries to poison him with a capsule.
[I find it quite strange that no-one encountered those temple people in the previous seasons]
- If someone can please answer my question about the whole Sa-eed resurrection I’d appreciate it.
Thanx
Hey Haru!!!
So glad to hear you enjoyed the show and continue to enjoy the great gift it gave us to discuss the varies mysteries.
I’m also happy I’ve been able to be so helpful. I’ve watched the series 3 times so that helps. 
… I’m not sure how much you read but I starting posting on here about three pages back… I’ve had some awesome discussions with Aknot and a few others… Aknot is to me as MIB was to Jacob for sure though!!! Haha.
Now on to what was happening to our good friend Sayid.
I’m in a pinch so I’ll make it as quick as I can.
Dogen (the asian leader of the temple) spoke of an evil growing inside him. This is actually the sickness that Rousseau speaks of way back in season 1. During the time traveling we see her crew enter the Temple and when they come out they are exactly as Sayid was, “changed” “different” a shell of their former selves. They had been changed just as Sayid had been. We can thank good ol’ Desmond for bringing him back from the “Darkside”. Rousseau ends up shooting them all and is forever scared of the “sickness”. My take on what infiltrated Sayid stems from the evil that also made the smoke monster. I’m sure they are both linked and the “evil/sickness” comes from the same source. That being said, MIB was said to be “recruiting” and as we know he did recruit Sayid after being “poisoned” in the mystical pool. This and other reasons is why I think they are connected, Smoke Monster and the illness. The smoke monster was supposed to be the manifestation of darkness and evil, so it would make sense that this is what was happening to Sayid but on a smaller scale. The energy can both do beautiful things and very dark things. Crazy Mother protector said it herself… going down there would be a fate worse than death. Your soul being separated from your body sort of fate. MIB is knocked unconscious and thrown into the pool where the cork was, this contained the water at the source of the islands power, he reacted with it by becoming the smoke monster. Sayid was close to death/dead when he enter the pool that contained water that most likely flows from that same source… thus Zombie Sayid… The island has healing powers that obviously come from the energy source in the heart of the island. As they say “dead is dead”… Dogen said it was to late for Sayid and that he was now poisoned, almost as if the Islands energy did bring him back to life but he was to far gone and now he’s becoming somewhat like the walking dead… Sayid said himself that he feels nothing… So it’s as if his body was there but his soul wasn’t… Our friend Desmond fixed that though because he’s the fail safe and a complete badass.
This is just all one take on it… combining what happened to MIB and the source behind it.
“My take on what infiltrated Sayid stems from the evil that also made the smoke monster.”
What evil? There was nothing inherently “Evil” on that Island. The story would have been much simpler had there been. However since there was never “evil” what got to Jacobs brother and what got to Sayed and the French crew?
You say Evil like MiB was a bad person… He/It was being held there against his will. His mother was murdered on his very first birthday. His brother acts like a sheep being herded with no free will
of his own then tries to impose his responsibilities (which he has no knowledge of) onto others.
Now let me ask you who was truly evil here? A man being held against his will at wits end using any method necessary to escape his imprisonment or his jailer that has jailed him for no other apparent reason then their mothers murderer told him to?
Yes I will freely be MiB and you can be Jacob as I can see the thin veil that the writers threw out there and want no part of it and will speak against it…. you like Jacob can take the sheep’s way and believe all the drivel they try to pour out, trying to convince people that it was all planned this way… It was always about the characters, all the questions have been answered, we are great writers of a story because we let the “readers” finish what we could not…
(all in jest…. to a degree)
Aknot…
I wasn’t saying Eloise KNEW that Desmond would pull the cork. I was saying WE now know that if Daniel doesn’t go to the island than Desmond will die cause there is no one to help figure out his constant and such. … Aknot, you’re making things up again as well… saying well, “this would be easier”… that’s just silly, that’s not what happened… stick to how things went and stop trying to change the story. Many of your arguments are now attempting to change the story and we can’t do that.
As for the Evil on the Island… YES… it was mentioned many times that MIB is basically pure evil… watch the “ENHANCED” version of the finale and it will even spell it out for you in text on the bottom of the screen.
Also Aknot,
It’s not that there is necessarily an evil entity to the power of the island or an evil little man running things… you’re being to literal and that’s actually one of the reasons I think you have so many issues with Lost…
The power of the island has varying effects on different people… it can do many things… some good, some bad. My case in point… the light let’s us all live – this would be a good thing … but go down there, as mother says, it’s a fate worse than death sort of thing.
Also, many things in Lost are surreal and metaphorical… keep that in mind.
And back to Eloise…
She’s crying cause she knows she has to send Daniel to his death and that she does… at that point it nothing to do with Desmond.
OHHH…
Also, forgot to add this in AKONT
We do know, if you remember, that Daniel writes that DESMOND will be his constant in his journal. And yes, we know that Daniel writes all about the time traveling business in his Journal. This is how Eloise knows so much, because she was given the journal by her own son after she shoots him… We CAN ASSUME there is a hell of a lot of information in that journal. And for them to actually show us Eloise reading every little line in it would be silly. All we need to know is that Daniel wrote in it and then his mother read it.
Then why keep MiB on the Island?? What was so bad with him leaving?
Then why use the word “evil”? We can call it a sickness but then what is it? The writers when writing it and the actors when acting it elude to “evil/bad” as we know it. It appears to effect most people in the same way….
What is that fate worse then death…?? Being a smoke creature when you want to be? Eternal life? He could still take on his original appearance AND the appearance of others. He wasnt dying of a cancer or anything… and (up until the last episodes) people were not really trying to kill him…
Many things are surreal and metaphorical… especially the writers.
Then why keep MiB on the Island?? What was so bad with him leaving?
Then why use the word “evil”? We can call it a sickness but then what is it? The writers when writing it and the actors when acting it elude to “evil/bad” as we know it. It appears to effect most people in the same way….
What is that fate worse then death…?? Being a smoke creature when you want to be? Eternal life? He could still take on his original appearance AND the appearance of others. He wasnt dying of a cancer or anything… and (up until the last episodes) people were not really trying to kill him…
Many things are surreal and metaphorical… especially the writers.
Yes but he was never portrayed as pure Evil…. However since the show says he was pure evil…. why did he not act like pure evil? There is already evil in the world so releasing pure evil would have been worse? However he wasn’t Pure Evil before and he still wasn’t allowed off the Island….
Was that cause mommy killer knew he was pure evil? Not like her in all her Sainthood.
“if Daniel doesn’t go to the island than Desmond will die cause there is no one to help figure out his constant and such.”
And she knows that or WE know that? Im not making stuff up you wrote..
“when they’re outside the hospital after Des is shot… she’s talking about the sacrifice of her son’s life for the greater good of … well the world. Without Daniel, Desmond dies… if Desmond dies we all do.”
So she knows without Dan Des dies… Then logically she had to know Des does something to save the greater of the world….
That is what you said right? So how does she know Des needs to be saved?
On the whole issue of MIB’s own moral standing, is he evil or not?
This is what I loved about lost. The entire show from season 1 was
about peoples motives, who was good and who was bad. But what
Lost tried to show us is that there is no absolute good and evil in reality.
For example, when the others first appeared before we know much about them, from Jack and the gangs POV they appear evil. But then we later learn more about the others from Juliets perspective and see that internally things are never clean cut black or white.
The Others were made up of both good and bad moral people, or more importantly, people with the potential in them to be either or both.
Its a very Zen way of looking at things. Right and wrong, good and evil, are merely relative to your perspective.
Then they show us again. The freighters on its way. Are they good or evil. Neither they are both. They are people. Not so simple.
Then onto old smokey. This was the mother of all questions as to who is righteous and who is evil, and led to many a fine debate might I add.
But in the end it is all relative.
From MIB’s perspective Jacob is evil, from Jacobs perspective MIB is evil.
“From MIB’s perspective Jacob is evil, from Jacobs perspective MIB is evil.”
But why? I know why I have ALWAYS percieved Jacob as the “evil” one. However why is MiB “evil”?
He started from the beginning trying to be nice about things and only elevated his “evilness” each time he was told “no” with no valid reason.
Killer mom offing all of his new people made him exact justice upon her. (How she killed all of them is beyond me….)
i agree Aknot, how did the crazy mother kill all those guys. The place looks like a twister hit it. Also i always wonder about the donkey wheel. We never see who actually finishes installing it under the orchard, and surely once it was installed somebody gave it a whir?
As for MIB, he wasn’t evil by any fault of his own doing but I’ve always thought of him like a kid with a gun. Could you imagine Smokey let loose in a city if he did make it back to the mainland. That reason alone is enough for anyone to not want him to make it back to civilization. I know it’s not fair or just, but something tells me he wouldn’t settle into a regular 9 to 5.
So Jacob calls MIB the devil, to try to con other people into helping him destroy this powerful-smoke-monster that is inhabited by his dead-twin-brothers spirit, as Jacob knows it was his own evil doing that created this abomination of nature, and if MIB makes it back to the mainland any blood shed will be on Jacobs hands.
Nothing proves that MIB has any nasty intentions once he is off the island, but hey, I bet you wouldn’t want Smokey living in your street?
I always thought of MIB becoming the way he did in a similar manner as to the complex sequence of events that drove Anakin to become “evil” in Star Wars. While there was always good in him, life events and circumstances drove him one way. I think MIB became very frustrated with his circumstances that led him to a relentless drive to get off the island and stop at nothing to do so. He essentially became a victim of his own life circumstances that were put upon him by his mother and brother.
Speaking of Star Wars, the argument everyone is having with the writers not providing enough details reminds me of an argument I had with a friend back in the day about Obi-Wan sacrificing himself at the end of A New Hope. My friend kept saying “if this” and “if that” about everything! Why not stay alive and continue to train Luke? Why did he sacrifice himself because it didn’t look like it bought them anymore time to escape? Why sacrifice yourself if Luke wasn’t ready yet? Or was Luke ready yet? Why not just escape? Why not use the Force to do this or that? Etc., etc. What happened happened. It is part of the story.
Thank you Emaderton… That’s what I to have been trying to say… the story wouldn’t be the story if it happened any other way… “what happened, happened” it’s part of the story arch and it’s what we have to work with. Could things happen another way? Of course they could have, but they didn’t and that is that.
Every inch of Lost and this Thread is awesome and FUN AS HELL. Thanks to everyone for contributing.
Well said Emaderton3
But I am not saying What if…
Im not saying What if Desmond sucked a shotgun while in the hatch.
Im asking HOW and WHY. Which the only answers presented are “what ifs” as we don’t know the true answer.
Ben sacrificed himself so he could come back stronger (ghost images) and help Luke.
What was the Island? Who put the cork in? What was Walts Powers?
Two different “types” of questions. Not:
What if the Island was in space?
What if the cork was made of Gold?
What if Walt was Hispanic?
See the Diff? The story is missing parts. If it were not we would not be discussing it right now. We (Travis mostly) are making up those missing parts. Something (while its good) he shouldn’t have to do for a great story.
“I think MIB became very frustrated with his circumstances that led him to a relentless drive to get off the island and stop at nothing to do so. He essentially became a victim of his own life circumstances that were put upon him by his mother and brother.”
But why wasn’t he allowed off the Island BEFORE he was MiB? He knew the power of the Donkey wheel…. he helped create it. He was not MiB and would not know how to get back to the Island…because once turned the Island would move.
He was a Candidate? So other Candidates had left the Island.
So why not allow him to leave then?
I believe they showed him talking with Jacob at points before becoming MIB that he finally decided he would make an active effort to try to get off the island. Even though he helped make the wheel, I’m not sure if we know whether it was actually in place and “functional” at that point in the story. And maybe he could have left whenever he wanted to. But if you are told something over and over since you were a child, you tend to believe it, no questions asked. Plus, perhaps Jacob was always getting in his way and preventing his escape. The Losties were only one chapter of a larger book. It is probably safe to say there were other attempts that did not work out in his favor. Perhaps someone else could comment on why he didn’t go turn the wheel.
The thing is when he created/hel discover the wheel him and Jacob were just (assumption) Candidates.
At that point (it is assumed) they should have been able to come and go as they please.
Once he killed the mother killer and Jacob tossed him into the “Source” turning him into smokey he lost the ability to leave the Island…. why?
Heck if I know as with other stuff it was never explained.
I mean if Mommy killer was a protector and MiB and Jacob were Candidates they COULD have both left. However MiB cant leave if there is a protector alive (fact) or a Candidate (assumption).
So then MiB magically (what other way) remembered to pull the Cork. That way instead of leaving the Island he could just destroy it. What he didnt know is by pulling the cork it would make him vulnerable. How he knew about the cork and not what would happen to him (why did he keep lockes looks btw he should ahve turned into Jacobs brother) is beyond me….
So “Smokey” was not permitted to turn the wheel…. Why? pfffft I got no idea… I would have at least tried to if I was him.
Can’t wait to comment on this either…
Damn work!!!!
What I got from seeing the island “backstory” episode was that MiB was killed when jacob tossed him in the light stuff. And because of that action smoke was created or awoke. And smoke took the form of MiB only to interact with jacob but smoke was a seperate entity from MiB. Yes he was MiB with richard but if he wasn’t it would have confused the audience/as well as that’s who jacob knew him as. Since we never see the first interaction with jacob and smoke as mib, who knows what happened. Jacob probably would’ve been like wtf your bones are chilling in the cave and mib would’ve been like I’m smoke but i can take the form of your bro.
So the point of me babbling is that maybe that’s why mib/smoke couldn’t leave. Cause smoke was never a candidate even tho mib during his life was. And maybe smoke was always trying to leave but was dorminate for however long until jacob “released” him or something along those lines. Just a thought.
Also I agree with aknot about Lost as a tv show being kinda weaksauce. The pilot was amazing. It was a great idea that was very interesting but I felt the show quickly became too gimmicky. Using all kinds of opened ended questions to try and gain/retain viewership. I don’t think I will be invested in a show as much as I was with Lost ever again and for some silly reason I will go out of my way to see something matt fox is in, but I feel the series could’ve easily been two seasons shorter.
The most disturding thing was they never really answered what the f*ck the island was. Yeah I read somewhere on here travis wrote, they explained it as a cork holding the darkness at bay or evil or red wine. Cool but what the heck is the island? Not what the island represents but what is it? How did this come to be the battle ground of good v. evil? You (you being the damn writers) can’t build up the backdrop of a show where all this magical time traveling hoopla happens and never explain it.
It’s not like – for example – *spoiler alert for inception* the end of inception when you don’t know if leo is really dreaming the whole time or not. It’s up to the audience to decide, which I thought was interesting because you could look at it either way and it’s a theme that keeps coming up in the movie. Are these characters dreaming or not. And if they are happy whats the difference anyway. What is the true dream, reality or when we are sleeping. Stuff like that you can leave up in the air for discussion.
It doesn’t bother me too much that they never explained certain things they brought up. What was the Hanso relationship with the black rock and darma? WTF was Hawkings? Like seriously, why was she all affected in the finale during the celebration scene and kept telling des to not gather everybody up and move on? I mean I understand she was with her son and her douchebag of a hubby was cool in lala land but why did she seem to have a consciousness of what was going on? Who was that old lady that judged juliet when we all got to learn about jack’s worthless tatoos? And all the other crap that was never explained would’ve been fine if they had answered WHAT THE ISLAND WAS!
Quick question, were mib and those faceless peeps building the wheel that locke and ben turn?
To your question of were MIB and faceless peeps building the wheel…
When MIB explained what he was going to do with it to escape the island he mentioned “brilliant men with ideas” that were doing things on the island… these “men” would always be coming to island to do experiments with the islands unique characteristics… such as Dharma, whoever built the cork, the statue, the temple and so on. So yes, these men were building the wheel. Mother asks MIB how he knows this will happen, MIB basically says, “I just do”. This is because MIB was special as was some of the other candidates. MIB just knew things… like for instance, how to play the game his mother left for him to find on the beach.
Hello hambone,
Just a quick note on MIB not being able to get off the island?
I heard it somewhere a while back that on top of any rules/jacob stopping him, MIB/Locke can not travel over water in smoke form.
Apparently he even takes boats when he needs to cross between the two small islands (cant confirm this from memory though, anyone?).
Huh, was just thinking that kind of applies to you Travis and you Aknot.
I think the main beef between you guys in this discussion has been regarding the way the writers left the mysteries unclarified.
Travis you think this is brilliant, as there is still mystery left for us to hash out.
Aknot you think this is an example of lazy writing.
But I think you are both right. It was brilliant lazy writing!
A quick hi to Aknot too. Thanks for the great debate. You and Travis are like the embodiment of the little angel and devil i’ve had on my shoulders thinking about this finale since it aired.
Thanks and I enjoy Travis’ writings and story. What I dont like is it is not his story… if you get what I mean.
IF there were no people like Travis trying to clear up the short comings (in his own way) would they (if they are) still the right answers…
Hence crappy story telling on the parts of the original writers.
Aknot and Samboo…
I’ll comment soon, getting drilled at work right now like a pocket of EM!!!! hahahaha….
I love these “rants” so much!!!! So entertaining and thought provoking. You guys rule… yes even you Aknot… you are my black stone.
Have fun at work Travis. Its 1:30am here in Australia, enough for one day. Keep the posts coming guys.