THE WIDMORE/LINUS CONUNDRUM
Ok… so there’s implication of what the Island’s “rules” are, but that gets a bit problematic when you think back to season 4 of Lost – which is basically about Charles Widmore sending operatives to the island to do what he cannot (get revenge on Ben Linus). There was that whole sub-plot about how it was ‘against the rules’ for Widmore to return to the Island, and how Widmore “changed the rules” by killing Ben’s adopted daughter, Alex. But why would the “rules” of the Island’s protectors apply to these two guys?
In the end, I think the showrunners went for an “It is what it is,” approach with the mystical rules governing the Island; they are convenient plot devices that support the story at various points, but don’t really hold up when looked at in conjunction with the entire series. The Widmore/Linus conundrum is simply one of those holes – a weak point of the Lost mythology, for sure.
WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THE BLACK PEOPLE?
Remember when Lost had African-Americans as part of its “groundbreaking international cast?” Yeah, I vaguely do too. One friend of mine (and I’m sure of yours) watched the finale chanting “They better bring back Walt!” over and over – but no such luck.
Walt and his father Michael did make latter season Lost appearances: Locke visited Walt off the Island in the season five episode “The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham” and Michael appeared to Hurley as a ghost in season six, explaining the whole “whispers on the Island” thing. Still, many fans wondered why Walt, Michael and the “tailie” priest, Mr. Eko, didn’t reunite with the other cast members at the purgatory all-faith church in the finale.
Well, Michael we know is stuck on the Island as a “whisper” because he can’t move on, due to his killing of Libby and Ana Lucia in season two. Walt was freed from the Island early on, so the journey that bonded the Oceanic passengers in the purgatory universe was one that Walt was never really part of.
As for Mr. Eko, his death in the season 3 episode “The Cost of Living” showed that Eko had come to peace with his life. When told by the ghost of his brother Yemi to “Confess his sins,” Eko refused, saying that he had no guilt to confess; in his life, he did what he had to do to survive. The smoke monster evaluated Eko, who stood resolute about himself, his sins and the faith and redemption he’d ultimately found. After smokey beat Eko to pulp, Eko’s last vision was his young self walking away with his brother, holding the soccer ball they used to play with.
In short: Eko, by finding his faith and coming to peace with himself, had no reason to be in the purgatory world with the others. Wherever his soul was going, it was prepared for that journey – unlike the other passengers, who still had to come to peace with themselves and their deaths.
That all sounds deep, sure, but I’m sure off-screen conflicts with the actors and the fact that Macolm David Kelley (the kid who played Walt) hit puberty were also major factors.
WHAT ABOUT THE POLAR BEARS?
If you’re asking this question, you weren’t really paying attention to the show. Go rent Lost season 3 on DVD and see if you can’t figure out the polar bear “mystery” when the rest of us did… back in 2006. I’ll give you a hint: Dharma Initiative experiments.
WHAT ABOUT THE NUMBERS?
In the season six episode “The Substitute” Un-Locke takes Sawyer down to “Jacob’s cave” on the cliff (where Jack ultimately killed MIB) and in that cave, Sawyer observes that Jacob’s list of “candidates” for his replacement – our Losties – have numbers by their names. The list of candidates (Sawyer, Jack, Locke, Hugo, Sayid and “Kwon”) equate to the numbers 4-8-15-16-23-42 – the numbers that both steered Hurley to the Island in the first place (he went to Australia to find out about them), and served as the code for releasing the Island’s tapped energy in The Swan station. The numbers also showed up again and again throughout the show (Danielle’s papers, on medicine Claire and Desmond take, on Mr. Eko’s stick, etc…).
So in the end the numbers had to do with fate, and were a nice little numerology motif for the showrunners to play with (and a mathematical mystery for fans to agonize over). THE END.
BEN CONTROLS SMOKEY?
In the season 4 episode “The Shape of Things To Come” Ben Linus witnessed the murder of his daughter Alex at the hands of Charles Widmore’s mercenaries. Ben then accessed the secret room in his Dharma house and disappeared into a secret passage covered in hieroglyphics. When Ben returned, he brought the smoke monster with him, which murdered the team of Widmore’s assassins. Now we know the smoke monster was the Man In Black, but some viewers are still confused why Ben was able to “control the monster” in this season 4 episode, but not later in season six.
However, it is never said that Ben “controls” the smoke monster – the best word would be “summons.” This makes sense to the story, as Alex’s death is the event that makes Ben turn to the MIB for a favor – a favor which he later repays in season 5 by killing Jacob for the MIB. It’s the ultimate corruption of Ben Linus – the moment where he goes from being a blind servant of Jacob to serving evil. So I don’t quite consider this a loose end – just another case of misinterpretation by some viewers.
JACOB vs. THE DHARMA INITIATIVE
Ok, so this is MY major question. In one of my favorite Lost episodes, “The Man Behind The Curtain“, we learn all about Ben Linus’ childhood with the Dharma Initiative. The episode ends with the chilling revelation that Ben – conspiring with Richard – betrays “his people” in the initiative and mass murders them using nerve gas – including his own father. Ben then reveals to Locke what ultimately became of the Dharma Initiative: The Others threw their bodies into a gruesome mass grave.
Looking back from the series finale and the “Across The Sea” episode about Jacob’s past, I can’t help but wonder: did Jacob murder the Dharma Initiative?
We know that Richard is an emissary of Jacob – that is, Richard does Jacob’s bidding. So if Richard instructed Ben to kill the Dharma members, doesn’t that imply that Jacob instructed Richard to do so, much the same way Jacob’s “mother” slaughtered the men on the Island when the Man In Black got to close to them?
I find it hard to explain the death of the Dharma Initiative any other way, and that’s a huge narrative problem when you consider that our Losties – many of whom lived with and befriended the Dharma Initiative in the 70s – ultimately serve Jacob as well. They’re serving the man who most likely gave the order to murder their friends and co-workers!
It also blurs the lines between good and evil. Mass murder is never a good thing, so the fact that Jacob at least allowed the mass murder of the Dharma Initiative (it’s his role as “protector,” right?) is pretty ghastly when you think about it. This is the embodiment of “good” we’re supposed to root for? Makes you think the Man In Black wasn’t ALL bad…
WHAT ABOUT THE BOMB?
For me this is also a major problem of the Lost mythology. For much of season 6, many fans assumed (based on the opening to the season six premiere, “LA X“) that the bomb that Jack and Co. detonated in the 70s (the season 5 finale) resulted in the Island sinking and an alternate timeline being created, in which Oceanic 815 never crashed, and things were slightly different in the lives of the passengers.
Now we know that the “alternate timeline” was actually purgatory where the Losties all met up when they were dead, and the whole “alternate timeline” bit was a red herring. So what, exactly, did the bomb do?
The obvious answer is that the bomb propelled the Losties back through time to the present day, where the the Swan station (a.k.a. “The Hatch”) was now a slightly different version of its former imploded self (see the photos below).
Hatch Implosion 1
Hatch Implosion 2
Like most time travel narratives, the situation with the hatch raises a ton of logistical questions, such as: Would Desmond still be on the island if the hatch had been destroyed in the past? Wouldn’t that alteration to the time stream have a ripple effect that disrupted everything else regarding the Oceanic 815 crashing? And so on…
Instead what we got was a time travel scenario where that one location, the 70s Swan station, seemed to “overlap” on its present-day self, while leaving the rest of the time stream unaffected (or something like that). It’s confusing and very problematic – yet another reason why time travel is something you probably want to stay away from as a storyteller…
In the end though, the outcome is the same: Whatever conduit to the Island’s energy source that the Dharma Initiative tapped when they made the Swan station was ultimately exhausted. Whether it was exhausted by the bomb Juliet set off, or the the moment in season 3 when Locke lost his faith and refused to push the button (“Live Together, Die Alone“) the energy was released, and The Swan was destroyed. The Losties made it back to the present, and there was never two timelines, apparently.
Try not to think too hard about it, I guess… But it certainly is a major thread left dangling.
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These are just some of the lingering question Lost has left us with. Did our explanations make sense or are you just as confused as before? For those of you who feel cheated by the finale – did any of these explanations help?
[Check out this video of the unanswered questions of Lost]
Sound off in the comments.
Source: Lostpedia
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I think stella is sounding very cocky with her “I can do better…” comments and blog posts lol
Sad thing is I know my 13 yo could have done better in some parts…..
Just like a 13 year can probably do better with your life. Sad, but ironic, isn’t it.
Pardon me? Please define better with my life as you know so much about me.
No really.. I can wait. Or are you just here to try and take shots at people to prove how “cool” you are and stir up trouble.. come on its ok….
Eh…
I agree there is not place for this banter here. I dealt with it the other day… it’s rather ridiculous.
Though if we choose to attack the writers than others should be able to defend them in their absence seeing that they can’t defend themselves. It’s really not fair to the people that surely worked so hard to bring us the best quality product they could.
Aknot… you know I respect your opinion and you are entitled to it. Though I think it is in all of our best interests if we don’t directly insult the writers seeing that they aren’t here to defend themselves – nor do they need to. We should at very least respect them for the job they did and for bringing us something worthy of debates such as these. Also, I ignored it at the time, but the comment you made about your 13 yr old doing a better job is a comment I’d expect coming from a 13 yr old.
Not you sir. Though I’m sure your child is a chip-of-the-old-block!!! 
Maria – completely uncalled for… thank you for defending the show and writers but lets keep our brows a bit higher when doing so.
Let’s all be friends.
pfffft
Sorry If I think someone did a crappy job I am going to let them know. Its not as if Im saying the writers/creators are talentless hacks.
A direct “attack” towards someone is a lot different then saying someones writing on a show and/or particular section of that show sucked.
The thing is LOST had so many “writers” so to be able to single “one” out is impossible and probably a good reason why I (and others) feel it was poorly written.
However for the record it was probably Lindelof and Cuse I am speaking of when I say “writers”.
poorly written in some parts not the whole thing…
There is a difference between saying, “for me, they dropped the ball” and “my 13 yr old could have done a better job”.
And quite frankly, the writers don’t “suck”. Whether you’re happy with it or not they are EXTREMELY TALENTED.
And as talented as your child maybe, we both know he probably couldn’t do a better job – maybe someday, but not at 13. Also, if you introduce personal elements from your life and use them to attack things people care about, you should be ready for them to be used against in you backlash. Maria’s comment was completely uncalled for and didn’t at all address the point or have anything to do with the writers “not sucking”. We shouldn’t make things so personal. Let’s leave our children out of it. LOL.
No worries Aknot ole’ pal… it may not seem like it, but I’m on your side.
as for my 13 yo comment it was an off the cuff comment. Based a little in fact. When my son sees something and asks me “why” I try to explain it to him… If I cant becasue it wasnt explained to me he in turns asks why would they do it that way… why not .
So while sometimes his answers are off the wall sometimes they are spot on and make sense.
Dont take me bashing the writers as me hating all writers and thinking that the ones on LOST should never write again…
Im not that shallow. I dont think.
You could do better too. In this case, it’s not a question of abilities, but of attitude.
Well, I’m not sure about Desmond (btw was he in the church? I don’t remeber). But real or not, the island was some kind of Purgatory, at least this way it makes some sense. And the altiverse was clearly a Limbo (if it’s drawn on Christianism).
Or that’s what I make of it.
Stella…
Seeing how strongly you seem to be upset with the show… you not knowing if Desmond or Penny were in the church at the end is nothing short of astonding.
This seems to be the case with many (not all) of the people that disliked the show. Lost demanded strict attention and for those that couldn’t give it… I can see how some would be perplexed with it. I spoke with one anti-fan that didn’t even know Sun and Jin had died in the sub together!!!
There is one END ALL fact that is undisputable when it come to the question of if they were all dead or alive. I’ve posted this before and there is no arguing this fact. Christian tells Jack that “some died BEFORE you, some LONG after you” … this one statment makes it impossible for all the losties to have died in the crash since that would mean they all died at the same time… not “some long after” as Christian points. Christian speaking of all the people in the Church that we don’t see die during the duration of the show. ie Claire, Kate, Desmond, Penny, Hugo, Sawyer, Bernard, Rose… you get point. There are literally dozens of other additional things I could point out to you to explain to you why they were all alive… it’s unfortunate that most of these things you either missed or didn’t understand. Cause many of them were beautiful moments. Like when Kate told Jack how much she had missed him. She was talking about missing him for the rest of her natural life after she escaped the island on the aljira flight. This is so heartbreaking but also so humanly real.
I strongly recommend a re-watch stella.
Agree with what Travis said.
Everything that happened on the Island was real. All the flash backs and flash forwards were real. Everyone that died during the show really died. Those that survived and escaped had to start their lives over back in the world. And everyone that stayed on the Island had to make a new life too.
But regardless of how their lives played out, they all eventually died. “Some before you, some long after you.”
When Hugo leans out the door of the church and invites Ben inside (who curiously declines the offer), Hugo tells him “You were a really good number 2″. Ben smiles and replies with a slight quiver in his voice. “And you were a great number 1, Hugo.”
You get the impression that these two spent YEARS together, maybe decades. But they too eventually died, long after Jack.
Also, for more insight on the Hugo/Ben relationship, watch the DVD featurette “The New Man In Charge”. A wonderfully crafted mini-episode of Lost.
I haven’t finished reading the rest of this page… I try to read this stuff in order. This caught my eye though…
Would you explain to me how this was wonderfully crafted? We talking the sets, the acting, the lighting, the music? Thanks.
Great article and post.
Having never seen the show, I was curious what all the fuss was about. So I read this article to find out. Here’s what I can tell.
Again, I’ve never seen the show, but saw enough commercials and talk shows to know it was a big deal. And a few basic things about it. Like it was about a plan crash for instance.
Firstly, the crash really did happen. It wasn’t a long 6 season dream. Season 6 showed purgatory, not the “real” world.
Second, Jacob is the good guy. Ben is the bad guy. And the MIB is the smoke monster. That Ben brought back with him. From the time machine nest.
Third, Locke was some sort of phantom ghost or demonic angel or something.
Fourth, the island was like a bermuda triangle weird energy hotspot. More than just a random island. Not like the island from that Tom Hanks movie. This one is haunted.
How’m I doing?
Not too bad R Gus, but…
- Season 6 cuts between the “real” world AND the “purgatory” world.
- The smoke monster was created by Jacob when he killed his brother (otherwise known as the Man In Black) hundreds of years before the plane crash. (‘how’ is a whole other story)
- Once the smoke monster is created it is able to take the form of Jacob’s brother at will (as well as anybody else whose corpses lay at rest on the island). Smokies’ one desire is to leave the island, and Jacob who is now the island’s “protector” stands in his way.
- Once Locke is killed and his corpse is at rest on the island, MIB assumes his form, and in this guise proceeds to manipulate our characters, including Ben, in a bid to kill Jacob (whom he was unable to harm directly), and finally leave the island.
- Yes the island is very weird, and ‘ghosts’ are apparently real, making appearances both on and off the island.
Actually I never insisted all of them were dead all along. Precisely because I paid (unusual for me) attention I felt so disappointed. I just don’t want a sci-fy show to end like a sloppy Vatican-sponsored telenovela.
Personally I believe the Earth is Purgatory at least for some, no need to go to an island with supernatural powers. Or what’s the point of the final Limbo get-together? Only to reveal that people eventually die, and, if we redeem ourselves, we’ll get a ticket to Paradise.
Since you seem to be such an expert, could you clear up
why the Others feared Walt,
where Charles Widmore and Eloise ended up (they weren’t too keen on leaving the Purgatory and rushing to the church),
why Eloise was such a constant (my guess is the couple figured out how to sneak into the Limbo and stay there forever, looks like they didn’t believe in Nirvana),
why Charles Widmore, his gang, Ben, Jacob, Dharma initiative members and their caterers shuttled to and from the island, while others couldn’t,
why Sayid didn’t end up with the love of his life,
or who was Jack’s son?
Think I can help clear up a couple of these stella…
1. The walt thing… actually already pasted some stuff on this subject on the last page or two. Nothing new to add.
2. Charles and Eloise in the ‘purgatory’ world form a spiritual ‘circle’ with other people besides the ones who end up in the church in the finale. The people in Charles Widmore’s circle would include Eloise, their son Daniel Faraday, his gal Charlotte, and undoubtedly other more important people from their own lives.
Eloise acts the way she does as she has still not ‘woken up’ to the realization that she is actually in purgatory, and as such plays out her life in this purgatory in the same ‘state of mind’ as she had at the time of her death. In Eloise’s case, I imagine her state of mind in life was pretty much “i know everything, and I know best”, and until she is ‘woken up’ to her situation (as Jack ultimately was by his father) she will cling to this state of mind.
3. “Eloise was such a constant…” if by this you mean her seeming ability to know the future than this was also addressed 2 pages previous. …tbc.
continued…
4. To leave the island is fairly simple for anyone in the show, all they need is the specific bearing to follow that acts as a portal/gateway to get off the island, and a mode of transportation. Finding the island again is a different matter. You still need to have the bearing to come in on of course, but the problem is that the island may no longer be where you left it. It may have already moved.
The Dharma Initiative used a Station located under a church in L.A. called the Lamp Post to not only track, but accurately predict the course the island will chart around the globe.
So the Dharma Initiative used a submarine to bring people to their island village, and used the submarine to evacuate their people from the island before “the incident”.
Then Ben gasses the Dharma Folk. To do this he first assumed leadership over the hostiles. This meant lying to his fellow hostiles, telling them that Jacob had appointed him leader, and convincing them to overthrow the current leader, Charles Widmore.
So once the leader Ben gasses the Dharma Initiative, and then moves the hostiles into Dharma Village, complete with a nice little pier and a submarine. And voila! The hostiles now have a means to get off the island. However Ben does not control (or even know) about the Lamp Post station, so the hostiles devise a method (or inherit one from the dead Dharma) that allows them to find the island by tracking the Swan Station’s radiation like a beacon.
Ben’s first order of business is to exile Widmore from the island sending him off in the sub. Hereafter Ben has the Sub for his own personal use to go to and from the mainland and comeback. But nobody is allowed to actually leave the island for good, as Ben says this is per Jacob’s wishes.
Then after the Failsafe key is turned in the swan hatch, Ben loses the ability to track the island via the “Swan Station beacon”. This explains why Ben needs the info about Eloise Hawking from Locke before he kills him. By tracking down Eloise, his former island leader (before widmore), Ben finally stumbles upon the Lamp Post which Eloise has been keeping a secret for who knows how long?
(cont)
5. “Why Sayid didn’t end up with the love of his life?” He did, it just didn’t turn out to be Nadia, it was Shannon.
6. “Who was Jack’s son?” In short, he is a construct of the matrix, so to speak. A construct of the Purgatory universe that reflects a combination of Jack and Juliette’s expectations. He is merely a shared “hallucination”, and once Jack and Juliette are awakened to this truth, they “move on” into the light allowing the hallucination/son to disappear.
Btw, the whole Lamp Post issue in my earlier post, also explains why the food pallets continued to be dropped on the island, after the Dharma were gassed. Ben simply knew nothing of the Lamp Post Station, where the automated pre-addressed orders were sent from, or the Guam Pellet Depot, where the pellets are loaded for delivery by drone plane to the island.
(Ben is probably just as surprised as anyone that Dharma food pellets continue to be dropped on the island, lol)
Food pallets… so since DI was defunct for 20 years… who was paying for all those peas?
One thing I learnt about watching Lost is that any plot hole is explainable when given a creative enough story. Every answer we DID get wasn’t a short quick answer it was a whole story.
i.e. Where did the Polar bears come from. Well first you need to know that there were scientists who deemed that the island you are on was a great place to do experiments on animals etc
So I believe the point of your question is not, “how could this possibly be explained?” But rather, “Why didn’t the writer’s take the effort to give us the story that explains this.”
Whoa… I just reread this post Sambo….
i.e. Where did the Polar bears come from. Well first you need to know that there were scientists who deemed that the island you are on was a great place to do experiments on animals etc
Are you under the assumption the Polar Bears were experimented on?
The polar bears were part of Dharma experiments…
“The polar bears were part of Dharma experiments…”
@Travis…. In what way?
I always just took it they needed “something” strong and acclimated to the “cold” to turn the donky wheel.
Other then that they didn’t experiment on them… Im mean sure they were trained… but that was about it?
Thats the whole point of me stating some things were answered… 2+2 in my case equals four. It is quite logical….
Aknot… ??? What’s your definition of experiment…
I hope it’s having a polar bear turn a wheel and seeing what happens to him.
That sounds extremely experimental if you ask me. Whether it’s injecting something or just observing… it’s all “experiments”.
The animals were there to aid in their research. To help them experiment. So regardless of the part they played, they were part of the experiment.
2 + 2 = experiment in this case. What you seem to be arguing is the definition of experiment.
No I want to make sure I am on the same page as everyone else…
Sambo wrote:
Where did the Polar bears come from. Well first you need to know that there were scientists who deemed that the island you are on was a great place to do experiments on animals
ON animals… not with animals… On animals sounds like what they did with the hurley bird… Having a polar bear turn a wheel to see what happens doesn’t mean they are experimenting ON the bear..
Aknot my most literal friend…
ON and/or WITH…
The animals that Dharma uses are there to aid them in there experiments. Whichever part they have in the test is the part they have. Dharma was testing the Orchids abilities… thus testing what would happen to the polar bear if the wheel was turned. This is a direct test on the polar bear itself.
Oh my Dear Travis… You would be wrong. The “test” results would be the same if a pigeon turned the wheel. Being a Polar Bear had no bearing on it. So to say:
This is a direct test on the polar bear itself.
would be incorrect.
They were testing what would happen when the wheel was turned.
Nothing more nothing less. I find it hard to believe they (if Ben/Locke could) couldn’t turn it however maybe they trained the bears to turn it on command to move the Island on purpose? Or Paul turned it last time and he was nowhere to be found….but then the Island would have time skipped? They then tested it at least one more time as identified by the Bear remains….
Aknot,
I’m just saying you’re being to literal to what Samboo’s point about Lost giving us entire answers through stories.
Whether or not the bears were directly experimented on is irrelevant. They were “part” of the process… thus part of the experiment.
Though I do think they were directly experimented on in a way… true, the main goal was to see what would happen if the wheel was turned… but a part of the answer is what happens to the polar bear as well.
This is a ridiculous discussion anyways since it really doesn’t matter. hahaha… we know what they were used for and all Samboo was saying is that Lost gives us answers through a story… not just by saying the answers to us.
Well that is why I was asking Sambo to clear up what he meant. Nothing more nothing less.
However it does make a valid point in that the question of the polar bear was easily explained… yet the writers decided to pretend to “answer” it.
One of the reasons I felt the extra 12 mins was a middle finger to the people that know/believe they left a lot of plot holes and stuff unanswered.
I agree with you on some level here… ??? I think … ??? lol…
Why use the precious time explaining something that was already covered so well. But it is what it is I suppose. We didn’t need the extra polar bear explanation to easily figure that one out. Something must have spurred their feeling of need to bring it up… possibly years of viewer feedback? … Who knows… definitely wasted air time though. And I could give two craps about the genetically altered bird…
the food drop stuff was fun but it only answered something I had already put together… so for me it was mostly vindication that I was able to correctly assume that Dharma still had pockets of operations that were so secluded and secret that they were still running on schedule, as usual. Even most the Dharma folk on the island were unaware of what was really going on… not crazy to think that those doing jobs off the island were any the wiser. 
To your below post Aknot.
In the Swan Orientation movie it refers to research in zoology showing a picture of two polar bears.
And isn’t the fish biscuit experiment in the cages an experiment alone, regardless of what they did at the Orchid with the bears?
Therefore experiments on/with (semantics) polar bears.
Well you say potato I say potato.
Training a bear is a lot different then experimenting on/with a bear.
To train it to do simple tasks that “man” is unable to do is not experimenting on.
Now had there been a picture of a Polar Bear with lasers on its head…. Hence the reason I just asked you what you meant.
So we are to assume the “Others” (made up of some Dharma people) were able to track EM unlike say the Military on a regular basis?
In 92 we had the “Purge”. DI was killed off. (most of them) then Widmore was booted.
We just assume DI stateside was ok with this?
You will have to make up your own mind, i’m afraid
Because obviously the writers didn’t know or think this was important enough?
Exactly, not important enough for sure.
Which makes no sense as it can be trailed back to a “story” changing line in a character.
Ben kills of the DI…. We dont know who ordered it.. we have a small guess as to why… then DI just drops off the face of the story… Yet all of its “tech” is still working to include the pallet drops and the ability to chart the Island and where it will be…It is still financing peas and polar bear biscuits.
Yeah I dont see how it could be important..
Hi Sambo!!
See this is what I have issues with. I cant understand the “Six Degrees to Kevin Bacon” thing. I really do however it makes no sense. Case in point… you would think (based on the show and what not) the following people were in a circle..
1. Sawyers Daughter.
2. Nadine
3. Juliette’s Sister
4. Juliette’s Niece(?)
5. Richard
6. Kates biological Father
7. Sun and Jins Daughter.
I could go on. Meaning there is no rhyme or reason to the connections. Who waits for who, who can hold back whom etc.
So lets say for example… Sambo and I are on the Island. We spend “X” amount of time on the island. It is probably defines our lives and because of what went on with MiB, the wreck, good times, bad times, etc this becomes the most important time in our life..(at that time).. our defining moments….
NOW…. (sorry Sambo) Sambo dies ON THE ISLAND…. 2 days before we are rescued. (Told Smabo not to wear that red shirt) I go home.
My wife greets me with my 10 yo son. My son is in awe of what happened to me. I tell him of my trials and tribulations, my ups and downs, the good and the bad times. He learns he understands and it helps him become a better man. You could say I help define his life.
Now Sambo is patiently waiting….. (being dead an all) when I show up… as I have now died 40 years after Sambo did. Sambo is ready to move on…. BUT WAIT… I cant just go on without my son… I nurtured him, defined him. I lived with him HIS ups and downs his trials and tribulations… So while Sambo is waiting for me… I cant go cause now im waiting for my son… and when my son gets there im sure (I hope) he had a part in someone elses life that was that important also….
Where does it end? What are the “rules”? Who makes the decision? Can I say NM m son is a big boy lets go Sambo….. If I do will my son be irked?
You’ll just have to wait and see who is waiting for you when you get to the sideways universe yourself, Aknot (lol).
But seriously I think Lost is saying, the way you live your life will dictate the decision of who/what people are with you in sideways land. And as far as understanding the rules, well nobody ever knows the “rules” but God. Our characters shouldn’t understand the rules that govern their existence, any more than you or I can understand the rules that govern our existence Aknot. And if our characters are never gonna find out these rules then you bet the viewer isnt gonna either.
Asking for a rulebook on this one, to me is really starting to want too much explained. You don’t expect them to start detailing how these things work to the viewer in the show itself surely?
How could you actually film that exposition, have God talking to Jack explaining all the laws of the universe to him perhaps? They already cheated enough by having Christian’s character so clued up with everything to inform Jack of at the end of the finale. It would seem more logical that Christian should have just as little idea as anyone else in the church about what is going on.
God? As in one God? So what if Im an atheist? What if I am a follower of Buddah (which there was a nod to in more then one place in the show)??
Are you now saying the show was based around a religion of “one God”?
Or are you saying the show should have explained they were using a mish mash of all religion and one was not “right”?
Or are you saying they really couldn’t explain it anyway so they dumped it all out on the floor in front of us to let us pick and chose what we thought was right?
Im not asking for a rulebook on my existence… Im asking for one on a show. A fictional show. They could have had aliens tapping on a glass that caused the island to quake and I would have been ok…
I mean the show had time travel, a black box that fulfilled your wishes, an Island that moved through space and time, Ghost, Eternal Life, etc… why not a 15 min.. Hello Jack, im god. (just kidding on that last bit) Not that literal but Yes it could have been done.
Nah my bad using the word God. Always a bad choice. I just meant you know whatever? just some perspective outside the box looking in i.e aliens, God / god / gods.
What I wanted to see more of the most is pretty much stuff to do with time travel and the donkey wheel.
Definitely not sarcasm Travis. You have everything one hundred per cent correct and I have watched all the seasons through about 5 times now. I have only agreed with your posts and that’s the truth. Do not let anyone get you down.
Maybe I didn’t notice something,,,but did the plane actually crash on the island, some people died, some didn’t etc etc? I’m only on season 3 where Naomi says the plane was found at the bottom of the ocean South of Bali and everyone was dead. But they’re not…?
If you want it “spoiled” say so. However the naswer toyour question will come later.
I was going to answer you but it seems you are watching it for the first time.
Let me know.
D -
You have A LOT of Lost to watch… my advice would be to just continue watching… they get to your question.
If you’d like it answered Aknot or I will be happy to… but you really don’t have to wait that long to find out.
I think you should just sit back and enjoy. … I’m gathering if this a big question for you know, you’re going to have a whole ton more for us when you’re through. 
Lucky for you there are pages and pages and pages of questions addressed on this thread alone. 
But don’t SPOIL it for yourself… keep watching… unless of course you can’t help it … hehehe… 
you are free to do as you please. 
I think Travis is the best! He knows what he is talking about. I am your number one fan Travis, you have an intelligent and logical take on this absolutely brilliant wonderful and amazing show.
Well thanks Diana, I appreciate that. Hopefully, it’s not sarcasm.
That’s really all I ever decided to begin posting here for is try and help those that wanted another view on things. So, I give mine. I’m not declaring I’m correct about everything. I just think there is more to Lost some of the Non-believers see.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion… they’ll keep giving as will I.
Hope some find it entertaining, insightful, and enjoy it.
Stella, I would have thought someone who would go to the trouble of writing up such a blog would have at least given the finale a second viewing, especially if you were among those that were left perplexed.
I wasn’t left perplexed, I was let down.
How did the second “John Locke” survive previous gunshots but in the end he was killed by a bullet??????
Joe…
Few things to remember
The “John Lock” that was shot by Kate wasn’t John Locke at all… so instantly no comparison applies. Wasn’t even his body. Just a manifestation of it.
MIB wasn’t killed by the bullet… the fall killed him after Jack kicks him over the edge of the cliff.
Now you’re real question should be. How did the actual John Locke survive the bullet wound? Once the MIB became mortal he was exactly that and could die at any point. So there really isn’t even a mystery here.
When Desmond turned off the light at The Heart of The Island, Smokey lost his power too. He was locked in as Locke. And Jack, who was told by Jacob “Now you’re like me”, began to beat Locke/Smokey the same way Jacob had during life (Across The Sea).
Smokey was just a man now. Or really, a scared kid.
Throughout Season 6, whenever Locke/Smokey saw Jacob he saw him as a 13 year old boy, the age when the twins parted ways. He never viewed him as an adult. So it could be that, in life, Smokey never matured past the age of 13 himself, even though he “died” as a middle aged man. Locke/Smokey confessed to Kate that he was “still working through” things from his childhood.
The Black Smoke Monster actually behaves like a 13 year old having a tantrum–throwing things and screaming. Always wanting attention.
When Jack sat on top of Smokey and began beating him and actually hurting him, making him bleed, Smokey didn’t fight back. Even though he looked like John Locke, he was just a scared boy with a bloody lip again.
when Jack turned the light off, the MIB (Locke) was rendered powerless and was therefore able to be killed.
I’ve got an “answered in my mind” question that I haven’t seen elsewhere, so apologies if this is old. The two bodies in the cave were “Mother” and “Man in Black”, right? So hasn’t the Smoke Monster been “wearing” MIB’s body all this time in the same way he used Locke’s in the end? Aren’t they two different beings? Or have I been missing something?
Cornelius…
You’re definitely missing something.
The Smoke Monster is the same Smoke Monster entire show. He’s actually not “emboding” anyone for that matter. He’s only taking their likeness -”Shape Shifting” not actually re-animating corpses. The Smoke Monster we see as MIB is the same we see as Locke. The Smoke Monster is the “evil” “embodiment” of MIB after his Soul is seperated from his body after being thrown into the strongest source of the islands power.
>.<
So the source takes every bit of evil out of someone and makes it Black smoke that can assume the form of dead people.
It still retains "memories" of its original host and or people it assumes. And if it left the Island…..we would have evil all over the world….you know like murder, rape, kidnapping, wars, hate crimes…
Or are we talking fire and brimstone type evil covering the earth?
Or are we talking about Care Bear type evil?
Or…. Would MiBs soul go to rest as that was his main "purpose" throughout his life…
See much better ending.. MiB gets off…. and finds completeness… his soul is saved and he gets to move on…..
So you still have the issue of the Island with all its power that needs to be protected…. etc…
Who cares? take what u will from it, its just a show. I cannot believe people actually sit around and analyze a freakin’ tv show, what a bunch of nerds.
so what brought you to this website then fool?
lol Rody
The evil one was manipulative Jacob, and before him his genocidal step mum. Smokey was just an innocent victim. And why was it so dangerous to let him leave the island?
What could be dangerous about a ‘smoke moster’ living with us in the real world?
You may have missed it but MIB wasn’t very fond of mankind. Regardless of the reason and more to the point though, MIB is a mass murderer/serial killer with immense supernatural powers.
So the island wasn’t real? The real world is so full of evil that no ‘smoke monster’ would make any difference.
You can’t blame anyone for not being fond of mankind, can you?
And you missed the mass murder of the Dharma members’ using nerve gas orchestrated by self-righteous Jacob. Like step mother, like son.
… interesting that you should bring up the “purge”… I don’t remember ever finding any proof that those orders came from Jacob at all. … I’ll keep my eye open for it. Though my gut tells me that was just Ben being Ben.
Also – and as always Samboo I love your posts,
Regardless of if he was right or wrong in his worries. Jacob was concerned that MIB would spread his corruption amongst man. His worry alone is enough to tell me that there is enough meaning behind his concern for just cause.
Sorry Stella I meant “main land” or “USA etc”, in my previous post, not “real world”. My bad.
Sambo….
Evil is already afoot. Turn on the news.
MiB WAS NOT a mass murderer/serial killer. MiB was a trapped beast and only wanted to be free. Do you blame the caged lion for mauling its keeper? 2000 years is a long time.. long enough to learn that in order for “man” to understand anything you need to use force… Flowers and Beads only gets you so far.
“Not so long ago, Jack. I made a decision, that took the lives of over forty people in a single day”) (“Through the Looking Glass, Part 1″) but also stated that the Purge “wasn’t (his) decision” because he answered to someone else, the Others’ leaders.”
So Ben offed the DI… why? Well Ben being Ben it is easy to see why he would have wanted his father dead… why kill the rest of DI?
Orders? Orders from? Jacob? or his leader at the time Widmore? Also didnt Richard have a DIRECT line to Jacob? Why not speak on Jacobs behalf?
So we have 4 people Ben, Jacob, Widmore, MiB… hell 5.. and Richard that could have given the thumbs up. So who called it and why?
I thought this one was already painfully obvious, but here we go.
in caveman prose too, nonetheless
Mother says people cannot go near the Light or play with Light. Mother kills all people who were with MIB trying to fiddle with the light. Mother tells Jacob. People come and play with light, not good. U protector, that is your job, U protect light. any man start play with light then you make them go bye bye. Dharma never should have made the Orchid and Swan stations. Maybe then Jacob could have let them live, but they gave him no choice.
Again, it is Jacob’s order. Remember Jacob doesn’t have to be a goody two shoes, he is the protector of the island, the guard dog, its his job to tear ass, when peeps mess with the light.
**”MIB is not a serial killer??? Have laws changed so drastically then in the US that a lion that runs amok in a street and sheds blood is not put down. I’m pretty sure if they stuck MIB up on Law and Order than he’s gonna get the chair guys. He killed alot of people that had nothing to do with self defense, or that they were stopping him from leaving. Sure maybe in the beginning he killed cause he had to but not anymore. Now he kills cause he likes it.
I like to think of them as The Psycho Killer Brothers, from the Psycho Killer Mother.
Psycho Killer, Qu’est-ce que c’est?
O
So… you are saying Jacob ordered the death of the DI? DI was no where near the “Heart of the Island”…. No one could find it hell Jack/Crash was what 30 yards from it and no one found it.
So they need to protect not only the SOURCE (you know the light mommy said protect and Jacob tossed his bro into) but all the other little pockets around the Island?
Now does this include people that had no clue as to the other parts of the Island… you know like your cooks and janitors?
No MiB is not a serial killer. No he is not a Mass murderer. Was Gen. MacArthur a mass murderer? Yes they may put that lion down if he is running in the streets to protect others… but if its caged and you go in its cage? Sorry the lion is not nor can ever be “evil”.
You say he kills because he likes it? Where did you glean that little gem on information from? Why have “followers”? Why not just kill them if he likes it so much?
If there is a “war” there is two sides. If you cant get through to the enemy with propaganda, or empathy they are an enemy. They stand in his way and their only purpose (Candidate or not) is to support in keeping him from leaving the Island.
You chose your side.
Exactly the point i’d been trying to make earlier on this page, thank-you Aknot, there is no good or evil, you said it better, there’s just two opposing sides going to war, each evil according to the opposing side. That’s the recurring theme running through this series that they pounded us over the head with, choose a side, but which side do you choose? Who is good who is evil, it ain’t so easy to tell. Who do YOU believe?
SO… if he is not good nor evil Why not let him off the Island?
What is so wrong with letting him off the Island? Are you then saying it doesn’t really matter if he gets off the Island or not?
Again they made a “big deal” about him getting off the Island and the Island itself…
Are you saying at the very end they (writers) said.. HA HA it doesn’t matter it was about the Characters anyway!!
The big deal with Smokey leaving, besides being powerful and dangerous, is just down to Jacob thinking Smokie is evil and doesn’t wan’t him to leave. Simple as that.
Said it before, i’ll say it again. Jacob calls MIB evil, MIB calls Jacob evil, it’s all relative, the point is we have two sides ready to battle now we get to watch the war.
And they are fighting cause mommy said dont go outside…. and one wants to and the other wont let him..
That whole free will thing again… why not let him? O that’s right it is not a him anymore… it is a thing.
What is that thing again? Evil? Or just Black Smoke that use to be a man and he still just wants off the Island?
We only go in a circle as there is no logical exlaination. Cause one was not presented. If I have to “make it up” it was not presented.
Exactly the point i’d been trying to make earlier on this page, thank-you Aknot, there is no good or evil, you said it better, there’s just two opposing sides going to war, each evil according to the opposing side. That’s the recurring theme running through this series that they pounded us over the head with, choose a side, but which side do you choose? Who is good who is evil, it ain’t so easy to tell. Who do YOU believe?
“You say he kills because he likes it? Where did you glean that little gem on information from?”
- Pretty much made it up, I do that sometimes… beware.
“Sorry the lion is not nor can ever be “evil”.”
- That is because it is an animal and doesn’t know any better, it is not evil but it is still a killer. Thats all I ever said about MIB too Aknot u know. He’s not evil he’s just a crazed wild beast killer.
** BTW There isn’t any difference between a killer and a serial killer except the number of victims is there? i.e. If somebody runs down 1 person in a car they are a killer/murderer, run down 2 or more people then you are a serial killer/mass murderer? Am I using these terms correctly?
“Why have “followers”? Why not just kill them if he likes it so much?”
Aknot when did the smoke monster ever have follower’s?
Remember him kill all those people on the black rock. I’m sure that is more than 3 right there which makes him a serial killer/mass murderer. Smokey didn’t have to hurt them people, so why did he, unless he likes it. Remember he is not a wild animal as he can think like a sentient being. So he may be insane but you can’t compare him to an animal.
Simple… Smokie needs humans… the right ones… they were going to help him get off the island when he was human and he would need them to get off the island as Smokie… either way he can’t do it himself… Christian puts this best to Jack in the church. Nobody does it alone…
Not even Smokie.
Smokie killed everyone on the black rock in order to try and scare Richard into killing Jacob.
Sambo…. Wasn’t Ben following him? To say the other people that were following him because he followed jacob would be a stretch as he explained to them and “challenged” them about following someone they have never even seen……
So he now had followers.
Of course I dont know where all theses people ended up…. (do any of us?)
MIB is just out to recruiting candidates in a bid to kill them isn’t he?
And everything he did leading up to Ben killing Jacob was all done to that end. The people following along with Locke and Ben on the way to the Statue’s foot don’t have any signifigance as “followers” do they? Might have missed that.
- Pretty much made it up, I do that sometimes… beware.
>.<
But a lion never kills just because. There is usually a damn good reason. To lable him as a killer segues into the below question..
** BTW There isn’t any difference between a killer and a serial killer except the number of victims is there? i.e. If somebody runs down 1 person in a car they are a killer/murderer, run down 2 or more people then you are a serial killer/mass murderer? Am I using these terms correctly?
meh Serial Killers are USUALLY related to a psychological issue. It is also based on a certain number over a certain time frame all killings are related in some way.
where as a Killer just kills usually with no rhyme or reason.
A murderer usually only kills once (can be a group) and for a reason (malice).
You can then break it down further…
MIB is absolutely a mass murder… and enjoys killing people… he killed TONS of humans on the show… let’s take the pilot for instance from the original cockpit… just pulled him out and mutilated him, left him on display in a tree. How bout all the mercenaries he killed from the freighter… OH… or all the rest of the people from the ajira flight??? Hmmm… OH!! and the crew from the Black Rock that he slaughtered?? … Nope not a mass murder at all.
Nope just protecting his territory. If that Boar killed Michael, Locke and Kate would he have been a mass murderer?
The Boar is only doing what it was born to do….
How was MiB raised? Who was there to teach him supposedly right from wrong? Who is it to say “our” rules apply to him?
See I have now taken you guys down the path… We must remember one thing… MiB is dead. His body proves it. So now that we have identified him as a “sentient” being if you will….
What is he? He is not a “man”. At all. Jacob is more so then he.
So is he “pure” evil? As is defined by our minds? If he is this pure evil then how was Pure Evil created from one guy?
Is he first evil? If he is not then where is other “evil” at this time?
Or is he just a caged animal that was let loose? Doing what a caged animal will do? Which when set free will adjust to whatever it is that they do when not caged?
Again without the explanation of the Island… and the Source you cant label MiB… or Jacob for that matter.
That’s why i look at them as just two opposing sides.
But this is what makes our main characters side with Jacob. Smokey tries to blow them all up on the sub, he kills sayid, sun, and jin! So now Jack and the gang DO take sides, and Smokie becomes their target for vengeance, as their still smarting from the bomb on the sub ploy.
So they throw their lot in with whoever is against Smokie. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. In this case Jacob.
The truth of the world; there is no such thing as absolute evil! One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. Good = what u like. Evil = what u hate. Therefore depending on what u like/what u hate u will have a different definition of good/evil.
For example, you may think it is evil to steal, while a thief thinks it’s good to steal. If you ask a third person to be the tie-breaker and give their opinion on whether it is evil or not to steal, then depending on whether they are a thief or not, stealing could be good OR evil overall.
It’s all relative people. All that matters is that they were enemies for whatever reasons. Did you ever stop to think that the writers were actually making a point about evil by portraying MIB the way they did.
Sure they could have made MIB appear unequivocally evil, but instead they INTENTIONALLY chose to portray him in the whole “I’m not really evil, I’m just misunderstood” light.
So ask yourselves, WHY would they do that? Could they possibly be trying to make a statement on the nature of good and evil?
Ideas like yours are usually used to justify heinous crimes. There is absolute evil and absolute good, the problem is that we can’t live up to these standards, instead we try to find excuses to get rid of guilt feelings.
Granted, sometimes the boundaries between right and wrong are blurred, and then there’re undertones, but whatever the cause terrorism, for instance, is always terrorism because it targets innocent people.
Not all thieves think it’s good to steal, they just don’t care. Those who believe to steal is always good are fanatics, that is, borderline insane.
I’m not a thief, for example, but I believe under certain sircumstances larceny can be justified or isn’t evil at all.
There exist impartial people, you know.
My point is that good and evil is completely subjective to what you believe. If i have an idea of what constitutes good and evil, and you have a different idea, then which one of us is right? Whoever gets the most followers? Well that doesn’t make one of us right, it just makes one belief more popular.
People say it is evil to kill, but i see it in the animal kingdom everyday. Are animals evil then? Is killing evil in general or are there exceptions, like killing animals for food is ok.
A lot of vegans consider people who eat meat to be evil. Is this you Stella? Do you eat meat? So are those vegans right or wrong?
The Catholic Church branded Pagan’s as evil? And then proceeded to put them to death if they would not convert. Does this make the Catholic Church evil? Or if I decide to convert to Paganism will I be evil?
Or is good and evil merely subjective as I am trying to point out?
To take it to the extreme, if you are a devout Christian than God is good, and evil is represented by Satan. If you are a Devil Worshipper (god forbid) than Satan is good and God is the evil one.
Can’t put it any simpler than that – R-E-L-A-T-I-V-I-T-Y
BTW i do agree with you Stella about the shortcomings of both Jacob and his Mother but I see it like this -
- MIB was never ‘evil’ until Jacob forcefully changed him into the smoke monster, and Jacob and his Mother are the evil ones to blame for that.
- Jacob was never evil, his Mother just screwed with his head, which led him to do evil things to his brother.
- Now the Mother (who I consider to be the real evil one in all this) screws with MIB and Jacob from birth and is basically responsible for everything Jacob and MIB go on to do. But who made the Mother what she is? I bet if we saw enough of her back story we would find another person to pass the buck to, who is responsible for turning her into a nutjob.
Agreed Samboo…
Jacob was never evil, just HUMAN, at many times he was just doing what was “necessary to survive” sort of speak, as he was taught and knew by his mother. Just like what Echo told Smokie… he wasn’t sorry for the things he had done, he did only what was necessary to survive.
The mother is most definitely to blame for much of what took place. We know that as protector you can live practically forever… who knows how long she had been there waiting for her “replacement”. This is why she didn’t want MIB or JACOB to leave the island and was so adamant about them staying… she desperately wanted to be free of the burden she so “lovingly” bestowed upon an un-wanting Jacob. She may have been nuts and desperate but it wasn’t without responsibility and the understanding that the job needed to be filled. She thanked MIB as he killed her… thanked him for releasing her. She was ready to be rid of the burden as Jacob was when he practically begged Ben to kill him.
Gee Travis you mean the Lost writer didn’t explain something?
You mean if we actually knew about Mommy Killer, how/why she was there in the first place with an explanation of the source we might understand this better?
You mean more or less (character and time travel crap aside) if we had one show describing the Source along with the “history” and stories of the protector we would understand the show?
Hell it could probably be addressed in a 15 min clip…. O wait we already got that with all those (chuckle) answers…
Source explained tells us about its “powers”, why Bro got turned to Smokey, and why its so bad for him to leave the Island.
Mommy Killer explained we get the 411 on “protectors” their powers etc. and why they have to protect the source.
Crap… I had a thought but it still doesnt make sense…. yup nm.
But Aknot do you realise the story that you want to hear is actually the broader mythology. It could be boring as hell, like that mythology prequel novel to Lord Of The Rings titled the Silmarillion. That is the story you want now. The origin story, like the Star Wars prequels.
But Lost was about Jack. Locke, Kate and Sawyer, where Star Wars 4-6 were about Luke, Han and Chewie and Leia. So Darth Vader and Obi Wan are like MIB and Jacob in Lost.
Personally I think any more history/mythology is generally irrelevant to the story of our main characters, but I think it’s a bit unfair to criticize the writers for not including more of the broader mythology, unless you level the same accusations at other beloved fictional institutions indiscriminately. I do understand though that the TV format makes any idea of a sequel/prequel pretty far-fetched compared to movies/books, which is why your so pissed.
They (the writers) focused the story where they wanted to focus it. What can we do? I wish Lucas never created the ewoks, but he did, still trying to wrap my head around them, lol.
Yes but the Island was a character. The Island affected all the main characters. The Island was the single (well maybe the cork) most important “physical” item in the story.
If they were not going to explain the “Island” then why make it such a big part of the story? Dont you think you could have a character driven story without “scifi/mythology/religion”?
No they (the writers) brought in all that stuff. It is fair to criticize the writers for not explaining it.
I really dont understand the Star Wars reference… sorry. Especially when Star Wars was “Long Ago in a Galaxy Far Far Away”. That is their out. SW does not have to play by “our” rules.
LOST was written as “current” Earth bound humans…. LOST was written leveraging off “us”… Humans.
You say You wish he didn’t create the ewoks… but he did and they were creatures indigenous to that planet. While not liked they were what they were.
The LOST writers created something and didn’t explain it… that is a big difference.
I’ve said this a million times over… (love the star wars reference btw Samboo)…
What we saw was just a chapter in the HUGE story of the island. Aknot, revealing the mothers history would have just raised more questions for you when you find out who the protector was before her and how their people got to the island. We were given what we needed to know to understand our Oceanic 815 chapter of the story. We know the tale of the island is massive and it stretches further than we can probably fathom. I think in some instances you’re simply asking for to much.
Lost is largely circular. There isn’t a definitive start point or end point… all we need to know (for this part of its story) is that the island is extremely old and is incredibly important to mankind’s and earth’s survival. We don’t need to necessarily know every reason why, (though they give us plenty of them) we just need to know that it IS. You can want to know why til you’re blue in the face. At this I say they give plenty of explanation of it… some simply just not happy with it. The writers could have flat out stated that this light created human life and continues to be the source that maintains it. (well, they kind of did say that) but my point is that at this point you would have probably again asked, “how”. So really all we need to know is that the light needs to be protected to understand the story, we know it’s BAD if it goes out, and that’s all we need to know for this chapter. I think as we rewatch again more things will become more clear about the “light” – we will break down the explanations further.
No it would not.
Are you saying the story is based on completely made up things from the minds of the writers or are they based on what we know and or can research?
If it was a completely made up “world” from the minds of the writers then I would’nt expect much..
However when you use in your story stuff I can reference I can then reference it…
For example.. Atlantis… IF it was even remotely hinted the Island was Atlantis with the Heart being an EM source that was harnessed giving Atlantis that fabled technology they had for the time period it was discovered.. Which then “abused” gave it the appearance of sinking (however it was poofing through time) would have been one thing.
Heck of the few survivors one a Holy man another Mommy Killer it could be noted that the various “Gods” (Egyptian, Christian, Buddaist, etc) were not happy with “mans” search for Ultimate power. Mommy Killer was given the task of protecting the Island the Source form man. While they have a little power/knowledge inside them absolute power corrupts absolutely.
She becomes the protector…. they become the “Others”.
That explains the long living and the special abilities of the Island. It is the heart of all knowledge/power. A term not unfamiliar with anyone. There is always an “Ultimate” something out there. It explains the Island. It explains the protectors “powers”.
It is base don what we know (be it fictitious or not).
I want to say the writers even stated along the lines it is based on something they read or a “common” myth if you will.
My explanation is not perfect… but it clears up a lot more then it doesnt.
So is this a “fake” world or based on our world?
Sambo,
You are completely and utterly wrong, bro. I *hate* relative morality. It’s utter and complete B.S. You can say something is wrong or right to YOU but there is a standard – secularists just don’t want to see it because it helps them sleep at night guilt-free.
It allows you to justify anything. Eventually I suppose molesting children won’t be considered evil under the justification that “it’s ok if they go along with it and like it.”
Vic
Hey Vic.. and since you posted here I have to ask… Is this the or one of the longest running threads on the site? If not what is?
Not that im trying to push it to be but it just seems this can/will be discussed for months to come..
Aknot,
Yes, it certainly is. I think only the Inception explanation post has more comments than this one.
Vic
Yeah Im sure I will also be a part of that once I see it… (shhhh)
lol… I’m with you Aknot… I’m seeing it tomorrow!! … I’ve been trying and trying to get there… but I’m to busy with our Lost rewatch!!
lol…
Sambo,
You are completely and utterly wrong, bro. I *hate* relative morality.
- exactly my point, IM WRONG because YOU HATE IT. Subjective.
Yeah Inception’s good, if you enjoyed it make sure you see Memento and The Prestige, 2 of Chris Nolan’s previous movies. Love those movies. The Nolan brothers are awesome story tellers!
Hey Vic,
Good to here from you.
Hi Vic, thanks for your post.
“…You can say something is wrong or right to YOU but there is a standard… ”
Could you post a link to this “standard” if you have one, I’m having a bit of trouble googling it. Thanks.
Sambo,
LOL – you can’t find EVERYTHING on Google.
Sorry if I got a little heated there, bud.
Vic
No worries Vic. I’d be more concerned if people didn’t get passionate about subjects like morality. It’s good to see people still care in the world. Thanks for the platform btw.
To say that good and evil are relative is a monstrosity.
Like I said, some cases are relative, subjective and may depend on the circumstances.
Life is full of undertones, but there exists objective reality as well, the problem is that we don’t always get it right. Just because someone thinks child abuse, rape, animal torture etc are good doesn’t mean they aren’t absolute evil.
Those who can’t distinguish good from evil are usually considered mentally disturbed.
By the same token Hitler and Stalin can be considered great fumigators.
You confuse opinion with truth, as simple as that. If you can’t see colours it doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Our universe hinges on cosmological constants, like the speed of light for example.
Obviously there’s no explanation why Smokey was so dangerous for the world already chock-a-block with evil.
Eloise and her hubby didn’t need to change their state of mind and move on — they were pretty comfortable in the Limbo, besides if Jack’s son was a hallucination, others might be too, so you have no idea who is actually in the Limbo and who is just a virtual reality set up for other characters.
Shannon wasn’t Sayid’s true love, but a makeshift. I guess Nadya didn’t want to move to Nirvana.
Jacob manipulated Ben into killing the DI off, otherwise he or his bellboy, Richard, could’ve avoided it. Dictators often get dirty work done with implicit orders, so they can wash their hands. He didn’t protect the Others from Smokey either.
Who/what was that black horse that only Kate saw? A hallucination? the MIB? Jacob?
Who kept sending supplies after the DI was wiped out of existence and what for?
Why couldn’t the MIB just leave the island by himself? How did Jacob travel? By submarine or ship?
While everyone, including Charles Widmore somehow managed to get to the island by a submarine even after Swan station (that presumably served as a beacon) was destroyed, Oceanic 815 passengers could only crash(-land) there.
What Charles Widmore actually sought on the island?
All these are just some of a host of plot holes, and there’s nothing more to it.
The show managed to make one point, though — that evil disguised with good intentions and hypocrisy (Jacob) is what beguiles people most and gets the most acolytes.
If their is an objective morality than you must know what it is then stella. So inform me, please everyone feel free to join in and give me the list of what constitutes objective good and evil.
I can get you started with the ones that the majority of people in the world, (including myself) live by -
Murder
Paedophilia
Rape
Torture
…but the further we get down the list the more disagreement there will be, this is the sole point I have been trying to make. Nothing else. i.e I don’t think aybody would disagree with Paedophilia on this list unless they are one.
Burglary
Mugging
Larceny
Embezzlement
Speeding in a car
Swearing
Hitting a child
Eating meat
Using fossil fuels
Not recycling …do you at least understand my point even if you guys don’t agree with it?
Stella…
“Like I said, some cases are relative, subjective and may depend on the circumstances.”
I must apologise, i missed you saying this the first time round.
Do you realise that this statement is the same as the point I’m trying to make. We are already in aggreement!
Now you say we’re in agreement. You clearly denied objective truth/morality before, whereas I said although difficult to categorise some concepts are universal truths. The rest are undertones.
What confuses us is that absolute verities sometimes are difficult or even impossible to explain logically, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Does the world keep existing when you’re asleep? That’s objectivity.
Murder isn’t always a crime, e.g. in self-defence or to protect someone.
Burglary, mugging, larceny, embezzlement can be arguably justified if a person commits them out of hunger or similar circumstances, but are evil when perpetrated out of greed.
Speeding in a car is mostly bad, since you can kill innocent people apart from yourself, but that’s your choice. Unless of course you’re trying to escape from danger.
Some children (if not most) do deserve a good spanking. Cruelty or abuse is a different story.
Eating meat is almost never good (either for your health or because of moral implications), unless you would otherwise die of starvation. Actually humankind would be much healthier if we ate no or at least less meat. Mind that humans can do perfectly without meat, instead fish is very beneficial to the body, and then there’re plenty of other animal products that can be obtained without unnecessary killing of living creatures. BTW, less livestock would suppose less contamination. In short, vegan humanity would have less health problems.
Using fossil fuels turns out to be absolute evil, especially in the long run. Unless we address the issue, it might be our undoing.
Not recycling is definitely bad, unless you have some extenuating circumstances for your “misdemeanour”.
I think I’ve illustrated my point.
Indeed, well done I might add.
So we both agree that evil can be relative.
You think evil can be relative in some cases and absolute in others, while I think it is always relative.
The reason I have never believed in the idea of absolute evil is because I think good and evil only exist in the human mind. Therefore if humans became extinct, I think so would good and evil. Do you agree or disagree on this?
Or could you please attempt to explain to me what this absolute evil is? (if not a definition, then at least some of its defining qualities).
BTW have you ever looked into Einstein’s views on ethics and morality, as this is one of my key influences in this area.
So according to you paedophilia is relative, rape is relative, serial killers might be good etc. Like I said before, by that logic Hitler and Stalin can be considered fumigators.
If there’re no absolute moral values, why not kill each other, steal, torture etc without sense of guilt? It’s like denying the existence of God, but probably you’re an atheist.
I repeat again: What confuses us is that absolute verities sometimes are difficult or even impossible to explain logically, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Does the world keep existing when you’re asleep? That’s objectivity.
Concepts of absolute good and evil are, IMHO, a result of intuitive perception of the laws of the universe by human minds, their reflection in our souls.
Anyway, even if human race became extinct, it wouldn’t mean other intelligent species wouldn’t be left in the universe. They will certainly use different names to define the same ideas.
To wittingly do harm to sb/sth without a good reason is absolute evil, the opposite is absolute good. The rest are derivatives and nuances.
So if somebody commits rape we can call them absolutely evil can we? What if that person goes to prison, gets rehabilitated and builds 1000 children’s hospitals.
Are they still absolutely evil?
This is my point. Every single case needs to be taken as just that, a separate case, to try to apply absolutes to our world is no better than using stereotypes or being racist in my opinion.
“intuitive perception of the laws of the universe by human minds, their reflection in our souls”
So if I intuitively perceive a certain law of the universe, but it doesn’t align with yours, then what happens. You seem to have the answers.
“What confuses us is that absolute verities sometimes are difficult or even impossible to explain logically, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.”
Doesn’t mean they do either.
“Anyway, even if human race became extinct, it wouldn’t mean other intelligent species wouldn’t be left in the universe.”
So what if every intelligent being in the universe became extinct. Where is your absolute good and evil then.
I’ve thoroughly enjoyed our conversation btw, you’ve given me some stuff to think about.
Feel like we’ve been hogging this Lost board with our morality chat for long enough though. Thanks for your thoughts Stella.
Sorry, couldn’t help myself, I could talk about this sorta stuff for days…
“To wittingly do harm to sb/sth without a good reason is absolute evil, the opposite is absolute good. The rest are derivatives and nuances.”
So who decides what a good enough reason is, you, me, all of us collectively, God’s rulebook waiting for us in death (if you believe in that sorta thing), or is this where you intuitively perceive from the universe what a good enough reason is? What if I intuit differently? At the end of the day, there is no proof for matters of morality and faith, so it fall into the realm of belief, and beliefs are always relative to the believer.
I’m Agnostic by the way, in case you couldn’t already guess.
Also, you do realize this statement you made earlier is a contradiction.
“Like I said, some cases are relative, subjective and may depend on the circumstances.”
If some cases are relative than it can’t be absolute that is a simple contradiction of the meaning of absolute. Either it’s all absolute, or it’s all relative. You choose.
Also, you do realize this statement you made earlier is a contradiction.
“Like I said, some cases are relative, subjective and may depend on the circumstances.”
If some cases are relative than by definition it is not absolute. Either it’s absolute, or it’s all relative. Your choice. No half/half, because half/half is by pure definition not absolute.
I’ve always been very interested in philosophy, especially in great scientists’ ethical views since, in a way, they influence the morals of the society.
“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind” [Albert Einstein Science, Philosophy and Religion]
“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.”
“I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.”
But what is the superior spirit? Absolute evil and good?
Some of his views are very similar to those I set forth in my post on the Bible, but this discussion probably doesn’t belong in this thread.
Great site by the way stella, been spending some time over there. It’s like a smorgasbord for the intellect. Keep up the good work.
“I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own — a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.”
(Albert Einstein)
“I believe in Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.”(Albert Einstein)
This guy basically says everything I wanted to say, a whole heap better than I ever could have said it.
For anybody interested in different views on morality check it out (This includes you Vic if your still listening, addresses the irrational fear you guys seem to have about relative morality justifying heinous crimes).
http://www.waterwind.com/spinoza.html
A rapist is an absolute evil, no matter how many hospitals he may build, nothing will ever make it up to his victim whose life he’s ruined. No good deed will ever right his wrong, nor will it turn him into a good person. Rapists, paedophiles, serial killers etc don’t get rehabilitated. (well documented fact)
Tell the concentration camps victims Hitler and Stalin were fumigators from one point of view!
The ability to perceive laws of the universe is actually wisdom, is inborn and can’t be taught. If our perceptions aren’t in sync, then probably one of us is wrong.
If a blind man argues that colours don’t exist, how can you convince him he’s wrong? How can you explain colour to someone that can’t see them? Such discussions belong in the realm of sophistry.
If absolute verities didn’t exist, where do the moral principles come from?
To believe that absolute good and evil are inextricably linked to intelligent species is a telling example of human species’ arrogance.
Do you seriously believe that the universe consists of only what we can see?
To wittingly do harm to sb/sth without a good reason is not a matter of belief, but of facts: How would you feel if this harm were done to you? How would you feel if you were raped, abused, left in a wheelchair by a terrorist attack, etc? Imagine it and that’s your proof.
There’s no contradiction: some things are like elemental particles, others are compounds.
I already mentioned that in part I agree with Einstein’s criticism of the concept of God (I’ve expressed similar ideas in my posts on the Bible). As for the belief in the immortality of the soul, I actually find some logical grounds for it.
I’m glad you enjoyed the conversation, so did I, and that you liked my site, nowadays intellectual stuff isn’t precisely a popular draw.
he, he, fool! Mr T, man u guys do watch a lot a tv!! I’m just sayin’ if everyone worried about real life instead of if Stormcrow rolled a six and made it to the 5th dimension or whatever, we would all live to be 120 yrs old cancer free while being millionaires!! B4 u all don ur starwars costumes and race the enterprise to warp 7 to get to me and go all wolverine on me, take it easy!! i like movies 2, i’m actually a Phantasm Phan myself. I’m just sayin’, put down the cola, unplug from twittering, and raise the blinds, there is an actual world outside, waitin’ to be lived, with real women (no fat chicks in princess leia costumes) and a real life!! Peace out, or live long and prosper, or whatever ur planet does, LOL!
phantasm wtf?
…and who is this Mr.T? Gotta go, got a twitter coming in!
LOL!! just kiddin’ around. I actually liked Lost during the first season. I came here to read on how it ended. I liked the first two seasons of Smallville, then drifted away from it also. Both became “not for me” but i respect the success for the shows, obviously they were good to be as huge as they were. If you ever wanna have some fun, go into a trekkie site and drop some comments like i did, man, some of those guys go all gonzo, lol!! Thanks for all of the Lost info, and hope everyone enjoyed the ride it gave!! Peace out!
He he, twitter!! LOL
Just for the record, have never twittered and will never twitter. (At least I hope so, said the same thing about mobile phones when they came in)
This is fun, we are months after the finale and we still talk about it, we need a new series badly that can conquer our minds and attention like LOST did
here, here
Sad thing is LOST has made me not want to watch more stuff…. Especially when it comes to subject matter (mysteries, etc) that would be like LOST.
A lot of people feel “ripped off” as the time and effort they devoted with their minds and attention only ended in disappointment.
Im told that I need to “get out of it” what I can creatively make up…. Well I creatively make up the shows writers dropped and or did not finish plot lines and or explain things fully. Nor did they give us enough information to logically do so.
Aknot, you made the same point I did. Even fairy tales have some inherent logic, no matter how surrealistic it may be. But this show is an insult to the viewers’ intelligence.
Stella…
Due to the fact that you have such strong views about not liking this show, yet you missed something so simple as Desmond and Penny being in the church, sort of completely discredits your opinion in my mind.
lol. It brings up how many other things you probably missed. Why is that so many fans “get it” and some don’t… My guess is that those of us that do “get it” look at what we see differently, we understand it differently. Or just plain understand it.
I completely agree with what you and Aknot are saying about stories needing logic… I can find every ounce I need within the 6 seasons (I really wish that everyone else could as well) That’s why I started posting on here in the first place, it was to help those that were confused. Though I break it down to just simple perception. Some see things others don’t/miss or some see things that others think don’t mean anything. I suppose I just understand things differently. You should join the re-watch page Aknot started Stella, it would be interesting to see what “new” things you notice about the show a second time around. I’ve always said that Lost isn’t a show I would recommend watching just when it’s aired over the span of 5 years… the brain lets go of to many details that need to be remembered when watching other seasons. REWATCH WITH US!!!
Whats there “to get”? That there were stuff that wasn’t explained? Plots and Mysteries not answered. Just because there are some fans that seem to accept missing stuff and others dont does not mean people didn’t “get it”…
If I read a story and the last page is apparently missing im going to want to know what happened. Im not going to just say “o well Im creative enough to make up my own ending”…
What do you understand differently? That the light didnt really matter? We didn’t need to know what it was… Walts specialness didnt matter? The origin/background of the Mommy Killer doesn’t matter? What is MiB?
I know I cant change your mind… and you seem intelligent enough to know I wont be swayed either..
Hence the reason I asked the one question on my site that people seemed to “skirt” around and not really answer directly.. Sambo kinda did..
(tease to get people to the site..
)
I am saying they did not complete/left plots/mysteries open. You say they had every intention of doing this and we are supposed to “make up” our own. I say hogwash they are taking that way out and hoping people will believe them.
Aknot,
As always… I’m saying they DID explain it… some just don’t realize it. It’s not missing… it’s there to be found… we just have to look for it.
Like the sound Locke’s calculator makes… we wouldn’t have noticed that the first time around. But it’s there, hidden to our ears at the time because of it’s placement…
Think about how many other things are there for us to find… like the religious symbols in the window of the church… the answers are all there… missing only because some people haven’t found them… or refuse to look. 
also… the light, the island, mib… all of it they did answer… it is important… let’s just do our rewatch and re-digest it… they spend so much time and dialogue on these matters… they “showed” us SO much… we just need to understand it. And we’ll get there, I’m going to wait until then to start commenting further on these topics. I want a clear and present “reloaded” memory of those episodes and moments.
Sometimes… it seems some people also just don’t like the answer… and that’s a different argument all together.
Or people feel that made up answers are the best.
“As always… I’m saying they DID explain it… some just don’t realize it. It’s not missing… it’s there to be found… we just have to look for it.”
So they explained:
Why MiB (as Jacobs brother) cant leave?
Why can Jacob leave? How does Jacob leave and return?
How a Candidate (MiB) was able to kill a protector (mother)?
How the Swan Station was built even though every 108mins a button has to be pressed which kept a “catastrophic event” from happening for which the swan was built for in the first place?
Why didn’t the Helicopter that Desmond saw come to pick up Claire and the baby?
Why did Claire just leave her baby and run off?
Who ordered the Purge?
What is the significance with and or why have hieroglyphics in the countdown clock?
How does Walt know about the Hatch and why does he warn Locke not to open it?
Why did Walt appear to Shannon speaking backwards about the button?
Who was Walt when Walt told Locke to get out of the pit he had work to do?
What is the purpose of the “Others” disguising themselves (most notable Tom and his fake beard)?
How did the Monk know Eloise? And Why make is so obvious?
Does Jacks Tattoos actually mean anything with regards to the storyline? And since they dont (and they are real) why devote a whole flipping show to them?
Whose eyeball did Hurley see when looking into the cabin at someone sitting in the chair? (or do we guess that smokey can now be 2 people?)
What were the rules that dictated Ben vs Widmore? Who made them and why?
What is the frozen/donkey wheel… I mean come on…. there has to be something else that it attaches to.. or just passing a spoke through the light/water(?) sets it off? Who finished it?
Who was shooting at Sawyer and Company on the outrigger?
Who was Dogen and how does he keep MiB out of the temple?
Why did they have to “recreate” the flight back if it was all based on science? If your answer is to get them to 77 why did Eloise want them in 77 and how did she know this would happen? Why didnt Sun poof to 77?
What is the purpose of wanting Rous and Alex dead?
How did the EM send Desmond to “Purgatory” and how did Widmore know this would happen and why send him? Why didnt the EM (hatch) blast send him to purgatory instead of sending his conscience back in time?
Aknot,
Good questions!
But this:
“How did the EM send Desmond to “Purgatory” and how did Widmore know this would happen and why send him?”
Widmore did not know EM will send Desmond anywhere, he was testing if Desmond will survive, that’s all. Widmore was really suprised to the effect this test had on Desmond.
@V
Some of my questions and statements are what you might call misleading at best.
As I typed that I knew the answer.
Thanks some came from me while some were remembered and taken from other sources.
Man… impressive list Aknot! And I’m sure u were just warming up.
Also and this one I couldnt find referenced anywhere…
How did Penny know to search for the EM pulse in an effort to find Desmond?
Many of these questions are answered Aknot…
… and yeah it is a good list.
… you just aren’t happy with the answers given.
I’ll give you answers if you like but why should I spend the time if you’re not happy with them.
And further more… not everything needs a straight answer… that’s just out right ridiculous. You strike me as a one of those kids when you were young that asked his parents “but why”? about every little thing.
Sometimes all you need to know is that it is, or it was, or that’s just the way things are. ESPECIALLY in a fictional story about mystical places. Sometimes you just have to except that the light is important and that’s all you need to know for the story to move forward… or we only need to know that MIB can’t leave… we don’t need to know why to understand the story, we just need to know that it’s one of Jacob’s rules… period.
I can literally take any TV show or Movie or Miniseries and start tearing it apart saying, “wait, what is that and how is this and what made that happen… why, why, why, why, why?” … What is this FORCE that makes Jedi’s so powerful… how does Anakin survive being chopped to pieces by Obi wan and burnt alive in liquid hot magma… I mean being that close to that lava would have incinerated him? WHY, HOW??? Well the emperor saved him and put the Darth Vader suite on… but how did that work… ??? How did his limbs work… ??? For that matter where did the AI in the droids come from… how does that work… you’re answer would be “well this all happened in space so it’s okay… well mostly happened on A MAGIC FREAKING ISLAND THAT MOVES AND HAS GHOSTS AND MEN THAT LIVE FOREVER!!!!! That’s as much reason for wacky sh$t to happen as any…
The issues are Star Wars is a make believe place in a Universe not “Governed” by our rules. Stop bringing up Star Wars for your “side” as it does not pertain.
Lost is based around “real life” if you will or are you saying LOST happened on some other Island in some other universe?
“Sometimes all you need to know is that it is, or it was, or that’s just the way things are. ”
So then you admit that things were not answered? Im amiss to understand you first you say everything was answered you just have to find it then you say some things are, just because they are….
Again you say it is explained then you say it just happens because.
Let me guess you were one of those children that was led around like a sheep believing in anything and everything you were told… just cause?
No need to get upset as the curtain is being pulled away from the mighty OZ…
If that is your answer “its all magic” then that is your answer.
Does Magic cover:
How the Swan Station was built even though every 108mins a button has to be pressed which kept a “catastrophic event” from happening for which the swan was built for in the first place?
What is the significance with and or why have hieroglyphics in the countdown clock?
Who was shooting at Sawyer and Company on the outrigger?
etc..
What kind of Magic?
You mistake my use logic for me not believing in something “unexplainable”….
As Stella pointed out even Fairy Tales make sense to a degree.
“The issues are Star Wars is a make believe place in a Universe not “Governed” by our rules. Stop bringing up Star Wars for your “side” as it does not pertain.”
“Lost is based around “real life” if you will or are you saying LOST happened on some other Island in some other universe?”
Lost cannot possibly take place in “our world” because an “island that can magically move” defies the laws of physics in our world. Therefore Lost is just as much a fantasy as Lord of the Rings or Star Wars in my opinion.
** Also Star Wars is set in another galaxy but still in the same universe as us, all the laws of physics are the same, they just have better technology where they live.
quotes of questions and “answers”…
Q: How the Swan Station was built even though every 108mins a button has to be pressed which kept a “catastrophic event” from happening for which the swan was built for in the first place?
A: Magic island kept its’ breath to let the good folks of DI tickling it to build the button in order to have them still around (the island got fond of the tickling). Or they have had some laborious, unsafe temporary solution (bears working shifts at turnwheels?).
Q: What is the significance with and or why have hieroglyphics in the countdown clock?
A: The writers/producers put it there to freak out the audience when the button was not pressed. Did not came up with any good idea later. Neither did I
But that is boring, so here is one: it was Swan builders’ easter egg for whoever was stuck in the room of the button game.
Q: Who was shooting at Sawyer and Company on the outrigger?
A: I don’t remember that. But how about bullets from future/past? There was a time shift between Island and the rest of the world and people were travelling thru time, so why not.
Although there is the “Force”… woops. Unless entanglement theory ends up being able to explain Force powers, then I would have to say Star Wars probably IS set in a fantasy galaxy.
@Sambo
Now that would depend on if you could explain it logically or not now wouldn’t it. Einstein himself believed it was possible to time travel. That is Science. So moving that Island based on Physics is more plausible then saying “its magic” using time/space and the theory of general relativity.
As for Star Wars… Can you get me information to that. I could have sworn Lucas made it clear they were not…
If Star Wars is our universe, we should be looking for midichlorians. And that hints answer to the question how FORCE works. Being on that…
Anakin survives being chopped to pieces by Obi – the force was strong with him [cue correct music here].
burnt alive in liquid hot magma… that close to that lava would have incinerated him – but that was not the basalt lava or any other lave we know. It was fairly low temp lava. And also – force was strong with them.
How did his limbs work… – cybernetics. We almost have that already.
where did the AI in the droids come from… – big.corp.of.the.galaxy.far.far.away
Now I want plausible answers for Lost, with references
Aknot… (if you read any of these, read the Eloise 1977 one… it’ll blow your mind). I’ll write the answers under each of your questions in there simplest form i can. The problem is, that you will just ask why again. As if the answer needs it’s own explanation. An answer is just that… if it comes from the writers… it’s the answer. They don’t need to explain every answer out. If it’s blue it’s blue… if Walt is special then that’s your explanation. He does the things he does cause he can. Just as MIB did and Jacob did. They don’t have to explain how it got blue as long as the story can still move forward.
Some answers will be simplest form and to the point, because that’s all they need to be.
Why MiB (as Jacobs brother) cant leave?
- Jacob said so.
Jacob makes the rules.
Why can Jacob leave? How does Jacob leave and return?
- Jacob can appear to people, show up wherever he wishes, we see this all over the place. He’s the ruler of a MAGIC island and has special powers bestowed upon him by it. The guy can live forever for Christian Shepards sake!!!
We see him show up to places (like when Locke is pushed from a window) We know he doesn’t have a sub, or ship, or plane… we don’t need to know how he got there, just that he did… we know he has special abilities. We know the island’s power can transport people from it… we know things are interesting and mystical… that’s all we need to know. We know Jacob shows up AT WILL and that’s that… we don’t need to necessarily know how, we just need to know that he can because he’s Jacob. It’s just like how does Superman fly… he just does… he has powers… SO YES AKNOT, LOST LEAVES US TO ASSUME THAT JACOB CAN JUST GO AROUND AS HE PLEASES AND THAT’S JUST FINE FOR THE STORY. What more do we need. Would it be better to see him transport himself like in star trek??? NO, that would be corny and lame… the mystical and mysterious part about it is that he just shows up. That’s the awesome part and that’s the answer. So we are lead to believe that he just simply CAN.
How a Candidate (MiB) was able to kill a protector (mother)?
- MIB shoved a knife in her.
The only reason MIB couldn’t do that to Jacob is because as Protector she made that rule. And then as Protector Jacob enforced that rule. Ben says to Hugo “that’s how Jacob did things” this tells us that the Protector can do things and make things however he/she wants… that’s their right/power as protector. Mother wanted to die (she thanked MIB) she didn’t make it so he couldn’t kill her. Just like Jacob didn’t make it so Ben couldn’t kill him… at very least Jacob could have stood out of his reach!!! He didn’t because he wanted it to happen. He egged him on to do it “what about you?” STAB!!!!!! It was part of his plan. So your answer is a Protector makes the rules… how? isn’t important… a protector just does. It’s within his/her power to do so. That’s the answer we are given over and over again with evidence to back it up. Things can or can’t happen because the islands protector makes it that way. How he doesn’t isn’t important for the story… just like how a superhero shoots fire out his eyes… all we need to know is that he can.
How the Swan Station was built even though every 108mins a button has to be pressed which kept a “catastrophic event” from happening for which the swan was built for in the first place?
- All we need to now is that the Swan was built and a button had to be pushed. This does slow down the story. However it got built, it got built. I mean, for many of these to be answered the way you want them to be, think about what that entail, so somewhere in the show we see them constructing the Swan… OH wait… we do see that at the end of season 5. What more do you want. If they showed us anything else, like them building it after the incident it wouldn’t of flowed with the story… All we need to know is that it was built. Why do we need to know how? What would that change?… Then you can start asking, “well, how did they get the drill to the island?” I wouldn’t think that thing could fit on the sub? … QUESTION HAS NO RELEVANCY. This is television. Not everything needs to be explained. It just is.
Why didn’t the Helicopter that Desmond saw come to pick up Claire and the baby?
- This question has not point? I’ll better answer when I go back to this episode but from what I remember, Claire took off with Christian (form of her daddy). Desmond saw Claire and the baby getting on the plane and as we know Desmond’s visions can change… free will still exists. Claire and Baby were probably supposed to get on the chopper. MIB intervened. Again, this is one of those questions that doesn’t matter… many things are just story elements to keep things moving.
Why did Claire just leave her baby and run off?
- Her dad/MIB showed up in the jungle to her. He convinced her everything was okay and she should come with him. This actually makes all the sense in the world because MIB wants Kate to take care of Aaron. One less candidate to worry about. We see how calm and confident Claire is with Christian in the cabin later on. She says that everything is alright… OBVIOUSLY MIB GOT IN HER HEAD… this is easily answered.
Who ordered the Purge?
- doesn’t matter… it was either Ben, Jacob, or MIB. All that matters is that it happened by Ben’s hand. All we need to know for the story to continue is that the purge happened, they explain how, why, and when. Who ordered it isn’t relative. Though, there are signs laid out in “across the sea” that tell us it was Jacob. Knowing the Richard wasn’t opposed to it would tell us it was Jacob. Mother says if anyone messes with the light, kill them. Not just the source… but the light… and we know the light/power stretches all throughout the island. The heart of the island is just where the cork lies and is the strongest source of the power…
What is the significance with and or why have hieroglyphics in the countdown clock?
- added interest for the viewer to research… do the research at what the symbols mean and you’ll probably have your answer. Again… minor detail that doesn’t need to be answered. Somethings are just added intrigue. These were obviously a nod to things to come. Seeing the temples and the statue and the cork… all the egyptian influences on the island. And obviously Radzinsky designed it… he added them in. DANGER BITCHES… this things gonna blow!!!!
How does Walt know about the Hatch and why does he warn Locke not to open it?
- I know you hate it and you want to know why but all you need to know is that Walt is a special boy. Like the kid in the SIXTH SENSE… how did he see dead people??? … HE JUST DID. Walt just knows things, as MIB just knew how to play the ancient game. There is no explaining it… he just did. MIB says himself as a boy, “I don’t know, I just do?” So we as viewers are led to believe that Walt is special, so him warning Locke heightens are awareness and interest in the hatch. It’s just more story driven elements. It doesn’t matter how Walt knew it was dangerous he just did. Why isn’t that good enough. We know he can sense things and had a strong relationship with the island – they show signs of him having foresight – there’s your answer. How does he have foresight? … Doesn’t matter… just like MIB… he just does. That’s all we need for the story to move forward and know that the hatch is dangerous.
Why did Walt appear to Shannon speaking backwards about the button?
- same answer as above. But we’ll get to this in our rewatch and dig deeper.
Who was Walt when Walt told Locke to get out of the pit he had work to do?
- Walt was more than likely “WALT” my best bet now is it is Walt visiting him after he becomes Protector of the island after Hugo and Ben. But obviously that’s just a pipe dream. Hallucinations do happen on the island… especially after trauma, that’s a scientific fact. Locke was just shot … that’s trauma. Tough, Walt again, Walt is special, and that’s all we need to know. How he does it does help anyone and explaining that would be lame and take away from the wonder of it. He shows up… the island makes all things possible. It’s a special place and Walt’s a special boy. Be it as it may… like the answer or not. They answered it.
What is the purpose of the “Others” disguising themselves (most notable Tom and his fake beard)?
- They don’t want the Losties to know who they are or what they have. They want to remain secret. Also, DUH.. it’s for us as viewers… added mystery and intrigue. You must remember that we’re watching a television show and sometimes somethings are there to add to the story, and that’s that.
How did the Monk know Eloise? And Why make is so obvious?
- I’ll have to watch this part again.
Does Jacks Tattoos actually mean anything with regards to the storyline? And since they dont (and they are real) why devote a whole flipping show to them?
- This was an awesome episode… actually one of my favorites. Don’t know what the issue or question is here seeing that they fully answer what it’s all about in the episode?
Whose eyeball did Hurley see when looking into the cabin at someone sitting in the chair? (or do we guess that smokey can now be 2 people?)
- I’ll have to watch this again. I obviously know what you’re talking about but, yeah it would appear someone else was in the cabin with Christian. We’ll see.
What were the rules that dictated Ben vs Widmore? Who made them and why?
- Seems the protectors rules stretched beyond just him and MIB… Jacob obviously made them. His people are forbidden to kill eachother… simple as that.
What is the frozen/donkey wheel… I mean come on…. there has to be something else that it attaches to.. or just passing a spoke through the light/water(?) sets it off? Who finished it?
- MIB answers this to his Mother while in the well. Like it or not… he answers it. It’s a reaction of light/EM/energy and water. Brilliant men were doing experiments…
Who was shooting at Sawyer and Company on the outrigger?
- Actually, nod to you my chap Aknot, this is answered in the season 6 DVD collection journal entry. It was a shuttle from the Black Rock with “6″ people in it traveling to the island to see what was up. Again… doesn’t push the story along and really all we needed to know is that they time warped and someone was shooting at them. Knowing who does us no good. But now you know.
Who was Dogen and how does he keep MiB out of the temple?
- Not important… all we know need to know is that MIB can’t enter… for whatever reason, he can’t… I’m sure we can find it though if we look hard enough and we will. Dogen is the leader of the temple. Seeing that he is of Asian decent he obviously came to the island sometime with others just as all the people did. Well those that weren’t born there that is. … We don’t need to know how he got there… only that he is the leader of the temple.
Why did they have to “recreate” the flight back if it was all based on science? If your answer is to get them to 77 why did Eloise want them in 77 and how did she know this would happen? Why didnt Sun poof to 77?
- Eloise had her own agenda and that was Daniel. She knew they would travel back because she knew about killing her own son, she helped Jack and Sayid with the bomb and so on… so she knew all that. The reason she was so adamant about them getting back to 77 is the last thing she knows is that Jack is going to try to undo everything with the BOMB… if this works than the plane never crashes and so on… Thus she doesn’t end up killing her own son. This was all a attempt to change things for her. If what Jack tells her in 77 works than it changes everything and she never shoots Daniel. BOOM… I just blew your mind didn’t I?
What is the purpose of wanting Rous and Alex dead?
- I’m guessing you mean why widmore wants them dead?
How did the EM send Desmond to “Purgatory” and how did Widmore know this would happen and why send him? Why didnt the EM (hatch) blast send him to purgatory instead of sending his conscience back in time?
- Widmore didn’t know this would happen, Jacob “visited” him and told him to bring Desmond to the island.
@Aknot
“Einstein himself believed it was possible to time travel. That is Science.”
It is actually theoretical science. And Einstein thought it was impossible to return to the past. This link gets it pretty straight.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080306214400AAY95iy
“As for Star Wars… Can you get me information to that. I could have sworn Lucas made it clear they were not”
I was just going off the.. “in a galaxy far, far away” thing. It doesn’t say “in an alternate universe far far away” lol. I’m not really an authority on the matter.
Well you got me there. I wont ask why…. but you just like the writers exlain it with no explaination.
Cause Jacob says so. While an “answer” it is not an explaination.
there is a big difference.
–
Jacob as proven can not live forever. As for Superman flying.. he is an Alien and his “body” reacts differently to our yellow sun…. Dont use examples that have had explainations. It works against you. However he (jacob) can do all of this…. just becasue he is the protector? Then why didnt Jack live forever? He was the protector, he should have lived and been healed by the Island. Oh wait let me guess easy way out he had been stabbed to long. So all Jack had to do was yell really quick “New Rules you cant kill me!” and he would have lived… but he was just like Jacob… so why didnt the rules pass over?
—
Not everything needs to be explained. It just is. See this is where you “fail”… In order for the watcher to believe there is an actual threat every 108 mins (plot line) and there was a system or explaianation as to how the “catistrophic event” is adverted it is only logical that they explain how that system got put in place especially if that system could not be done in 108 mins… Plot line dropped and pushed under the carpet.
—
So the future can be changed. Which then says charlie didnt really HAVE to die… since Claire never got on the Helicopter. So Eloise was incorrect and there is no course correction as everything can change and there is no set line? You need to expalin your stance on that to me..
Nice explaination by the way…However it then needs to be used across the board and free will can not be NOT used as an explaination if you get my understaning?
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I have a hard issue with Claire accepting that. Christian left her “family” taking care of his in the US AND he wanted the plug pulled on her mother. “When he tried to persuade Claire to turn off her mother’s life support machine, Claire left, not even knowing her father’s name.”
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The Purge is a major plotline. So who ordered it has bearing on the mindset of that person (or thing) that ordered it. It adds substance to who was controlling/listening to whom. It will also put a better understanding of when Jacob was talking to Ben and when MiB was. Also it could have been Richard?
—
MOTHER: No. But they would try. And if they tried they could put it out. And if the light goes out here… it goes out everywhere. And so I’ve protected this place. But I can’t protect it forever.
BOY IN BLACK: Then who will?
MOTHER: It will have to be one of you.
I see no mention of people having to be “killed” for messing with branches of the Source. I see mention of puttting the light out… DOnt let them get near the Source as they can put the light out…
—
Im hurt you wouldnt think that I already knew what they meant… Then at Comic Con they “made’ up something quickly then saying “its up to interpetation” (the meaning).. Which is beyond me. You just think its a prelude to “Egyptian” stuff… which doesnt really add anything as the Egyptian stuff was only there (supposedly) to show the age of the Island..?
—
See then they (the writers) and you are using a convienence. To say things happen and people can do things “just because” is not very good story telling. Then why didnt Walt know they (Hugo/Ben) were coming back for him? If you tell me Miles is special cause he can hear the thoughts of the dead and you show him using that ability THEN use it as an excuse I accept it. When you (or the writers) say “just cause” it is crappy writing.
—
So Walt can project himself? Does he do this knowingly? So not only does he have the ability to “see” things he can project himself?
—
Agan with the “just cause”.
—
I giggled at this answer. They dont want the Losties to know who they are and what they have… So seeing Tom and hearing Toms name gives them some sort of power over him? We have a large white man on our team but his beard will disguise that fact…
—
It is just a picture on the desk of the Monk. However it is quite apparent they wanted us to see it.
—
Actually they didnt.
Left Arm Tattoo: No explaination.
Shoulder Tattoo: Explaination does not match what is actually there.
Although the translation given by Isabel matches the impact of the tattoo during the episode’s flashback, Isabel’s translation is far too long for any combination of four characters and is inaccurate.
Point being it was not needed and a whole show was wasted on it.
—
Eyeball.. ok
—
Wait… so some rules apply to others and (see above) can be stretched but others cant? We have to guess which ones do and which ones dont or we just use that excuse to explain things as there was not explaination? (see killing and your answer for Jacob above)
—
Yes but just because MiB says it does not mean it makes any more sense. Nor does it exlain how those brilliant men even remotely had any clue to what they were doing… especially in that time period.
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Shooting the Losties.. Great exlaination. I expected sometihng a little more “neater” but perfectly acceptable.
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Not important? The one safe place on the Island and the only reason it is safe is because Dogen is alive and you say its not important on how/why? Again with the born there… please let me know (besides Aaron) of people being born there.
—
Wait I thought Eloise was a beleiver of whatever happens happens. Shemade it quite clear to Desmond that no matter how you try to change it you cant. So she will always kill her son. Now you tell me soething different… again… see above.
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Yes I am.
—
Yes but why did it send him to Purgatory instead of back in time like it did (EM) before?
The thing is you are providing answers. Nice answers, possibly at times right answers. Yet answers can be wrong unless they are explained. To say the answer to what color is the sky is “twenty five eleven and two peacocks” is still an answer. When someone says how can the answer be twenty five eleven and two peacocks and the response is “because” makes no sense… at all.
Sorry for spelling and I hope you can match this up as I was on a phone con and did this in notepad…
@Sambo…
It is still science… and did you read the whole page you referenced?
And did you look for other references?
What an epic conversation this has been…
My mind is totally on over-drive… last night I couldn’t sleep cause I couldn’t shut it off. I can’t believe how badly I want everyone to love Lost as much as I do… weird… but fun.
As for Eloise… She needed Desmond on the island to keep her son alive since she knows from Daniel’s Journal that Desmond ends up being his constant. We see Daniel write this in his journal. Eloise gets the journal and knows Desmond has to go to the island. When Des shows up in the store and begins to “not” do things according to how they once happened she gets her undies in a bundle and is forced to try and make him stay on course. I believe that much of what Eloise does isn’t for the good of all man kind as she states, but for herself and her own wants and needs to save her son. She is as misleading and deceiving as Ben… okay, maybe not as much… but her number one priority is Daniel. A mothers love for her son is more powerful than anything. And a mother would do anything for her child.
I’m totally going to lose my job cause this is what I do all day. hahahaahaha…
@Aknot
My main reference for this stuff comes from Stephen Hawking’s “Standing on the Shoulders of Giants”, which includes excerpts of Einstein’s work. Check it out (it is a very slow read though). Give you a better idea of what Einstein was on about. Also includes selected works of Galileo, Newton, Kepler and Copernicus.
But for something more entertaining I would refer you back to the book “Time Travel in Einstein’s Universe” by Richard Gott.
The reason it is purely theoretical science is because all the theories are based on making matter travel at the speed of light. Nobody on Earth even knows if anything bar light can travel at the speed of light, so any theories based on this are purely speculative.
E=m(cxc) proves that for something to travel at the speed of light it’s mass needs to be virtually non-existent. So a light wave may be able to time travel but not you or I, I’m afraid.
@Travis,
What makes you think I didn’t love the show? It is my love for the show that fuels my questions…. Its my love for the show that makes me want to take a wet fish and beat it over the head and shoulders of the continuity guy and story tellers…
See what happened is it ended.. and as explained ended without providing a lot of answers.
To say I didn’t enjoy the show then for me to turn around host the forums and re watch it would be hypocritical on my part..
And a mothers love left poor Aaron in the woods as she ran off with the ghost of the father she never knew that wanted to kill her mother….
And a mothers love brained another mother to raise two nut jobs…..
@Aknot
My apologies my friend for any misdirection. Often when I speak about some not “loving” the show I’m speaking of the general person that found it un-fulfilling – I’m not necessarily speaking of you. I know how you feel about the show. I know you loved the majority of it. You just think they botched somethings by not fully explaining mysteries or dropping them all together and left us to mull over and unravel ourselves. We’re on the same page and I truly respect your opinion.
To watch this trash again! Are you nuts?
I’ve posted that before, but anyway…
Who/what was that black horse that only Kate saw? A hallucination? the MIB? Jacob?
Who kept sending supplies after the DI was wiped out of existence and what for?
Why couldn’t the MIB just leave the island by himself? How did Jacob travel? By submarine or ship?
While everyone, including Charles Widmore somehow managed to get to the island by a submarine even after Swan station (that presumably served as a beacon) was destroyed, Oceanic 815 passengers could only crash(-land) there.
What Charles Widmore actually sought on the island?
All these are just some of a host of plot holes, and there’s nothing more to it.
The show managed to make one point, though — that evil disguised with good intentions and hypocrisy (Jacob) is what beguiles people most and gets the most acolytes.
Watch your mouth when you’re calling what you don’t understand trash.
hehehe
Every question you ask here is more than answerable and have been answered.
Simplest answer. There were horses on the island… we see this from the FLAME station where THERE ARE HORSES. Now the symbolism of the black stallion can be researched if you like. I’m not writing that out here.
The 12 minute epilogue explains the supplies… though this didn’t need explaining… I figured it out USING WHAT THE SHOW GAVE US long ago. And I’m not a genius so how did I figure it out… hmmm… did I pay attention… maybe? Maybe I got lucky… but that’s unlikely. I added up what we were given and the answer was obvious. I’ve posted it many times on many different blogs before the extra footage was even close to coming out.
I shouldn’t even have to tell why MIB couldn’t leave the island if you watched the show. Seriously???
I don’t fully understand your next question… It’s worded sort of funny? If you’re wondering why widmore found the island in season six it’s because Jacob told him where it was.
Many were brought to it by Jacob, some just found it by chance. The thing that made it so hard to find was because it was always moving… and the EM throws of barring devices such a compass.
Charles wanted his position of the islands leader back… thought that was pretty obvious. They explained this when they showed how Ben had Charles exiled. Charles was born on the island, he loved it, and stated once that no one knows it better than him… It’s pretty clear that he wants to go back HOME.
Travis….
The 12 min clip explains HOW the supplies were being dropped not why they were still dropping them after Dharma went belly up 20 years ago.
Stella….
MiB couldnt leave the Island because…. uh… umm… His mommy said he couldnt and or a protector and candidates to that protector were still alive. Although the protector protects the “light” and MiB leaving the Island would not do anything to the light..
Travis…..
Charles was born on the Island? Do you have any proof to back up that claim? I mean even a hint…. There is no one indigenous to the island. There has been no hint to anyone (cept Aaron) even being born on the Island.
Stella….
Apparently Charles “understood” the need and sacrifices needed to protect the Island. He was the one that may have understood Ben was being misled. Was he blindly doing it? Meaning did he have faith in both Richard and Jacob? Probably.
Also Charles got to the Island because Jacob visited him (we never saw) and gave him directions…. based on mapquest so he needed a sub.
Since the show is open to interpretation, and mine is as good as anyone else’s, I think Charles just wanted to harness the island’s power to create super weapon and thus dominate the world.
The writers didn’t even bother to throw deux ex machinas into the show so that it made some sense.
Thinking people usually ask the question “why?”, Pollyannas with switched off brains usually buy any answer to the question “what?”.
A story that doesn’t answers the “WHYs” is written by talentless frauds and obviously targets the sheeple, I should’ve known.
It’s really disturbing how readily people accept any answers as is, without questioning the reasons. That’s slavish mentality par excellence.
So the black horse was a symbol, of what?
So Travis, you figured it out that
MIB couldn’t leave the island because he couldn’t,
the supplies kept coming because they DID,
who kept paying for them? — it doesn’t matter,
when did Jacob invite Charles to the island — you’ve missed it because you didn’t pay close attention,
what means did Jacob use to travel all over world? — we don’t need to know how he got there, just that he DID.
why couldn’t Jacob be killed by Smokey, but let Ben to kill him? — because he wanted so.
How was the Swan station build? — we don’t need to know.
How did that Japanese guy protect the temple, and what was that powder that kept Smokey off — it doesn’t matter, he just DID! (BTW, the Japanese guy was actually lured to the island by Jacob, when he was on the verge of committing Seppucu after having dishonoured his family).
Why was Walt able to see future, project himself, speak backwards — because he DID!
Why the Others were afraid of him — it doesn’t matter!
How come Ben and Charles who hated each other, but shared the submarine? — because they DID!
Why didn’t Eloise and Charles want to leave the Limbo? — because they DIDN’T! and so on….
It does indeed take a rocket scientist to find these answers in the show!
Thank you guys, now everything is clear and all questions have been ANSWERED!
Well, that’s a load of trash in my book.
It’s along the lines of:
Rule #1. The chief is always right.
Rule #2. When the Chief is wrong see rule #1.
And that’s all you, sheeple, need to know.
Actually, the answer “Because That’s The Way It Is” is a monumental philosophical doctrine.
That’s the answer the plebs usually get from the powers that be.
BTW, since time travel has been brought up I have a blog post on the subject if someone is interested.
http://bsimeltingpot.blogspot.com/2010/02/is-time-travel-possible.html
Not just a pretty face stella… enjoyed your time travel blog (a lot more than your Lost blog though I must say).
This blog proves your quite intelligent, but I gotta tell you, some of the clangers in your LOST blog make you look lazy. I’d redo that thing and take out some of the oversights, if you want more people to take your opinion on the show seriously.
BTW what is your favorite movie/book/tvshow which features time travel, if any?
Also if you have the time, could you take a look at my massive post about course correction about 3 pages back.
Would love to hear your critique/thoughts on these ideas (if u could be bothered that is, I realize Lost isn’t really your thing).
This guy basically says everything I wanted to say, a whole heap better than I ever could have said it.
For anybody interested in different views on morality check it out (This includes you Vic if your still listening, addresses the irrational fear you guys seem to have about relative morality justifying heinous crimes).
Hey, I’d better give you the link I suppose…
http://www.waterwind.com/spinoza.html
Sambo,
Let’s get something straight. I do not have any sort of “irrational fear.” And I stopped reading that link at the first paragraph.
It is, in my humble opinion, the ULTIMATE in hubris to assert conclusively that there is no God. That implies that the person claiming that has ultimate knowledge of everything ever to be known, discovered, etc. in the universe – which is the assertion of someone with either pride and self-esteem that knows no bounds, or ignorance and no grasp of logic.
Given the limits of human knowledge, it would seem to me that logically and thoughtfully, at most someone could be an agnostic.
And that’s all I’m saying on that.
Vic
What browns me off most is that you say I didn’t like the finale because I didn’t get it, or that I didn’t find the answers. As if it were Wagner’s music, Nietzsche or quantum physics.
I didn’t like it because it was based on suspense and intrigue and failed to resolve them consistently.
Sorry, but I don’t accept answers along the lines of “because they DID, because they wanted so, or we don’t need to know”. For a story without explanations I already have the Bible.
I’d say you’re in denial and just won’t admit the show makers flipped us the bird.
Those who claim there’re no absolute good and evil usually seek to get rid of the sense of guilt. It’s pretty close to the Communist doctrine:
“There’s no God and everything is allowed”.
I don’t have answers, I have my perception of the world, whether it’s right or wrong.
My all-time favourite sci-fi show is The Outer Limits, there’re several episodes featuring time travel. The Time Machine by H. Wells is one of the best in my opinion, although I’m not too keen on the concept of Time Travel. I love philosophical sci-fi — my favourite reading apart from classical literature. I’ve also read a lot of brilliant sci-fi short stories, but unfortunately I don’t remember either the titles or authors — I don’t have a good memory (hence my oversights in my Lost blog post — you can’t expect me to remember every episode of the 6-year show, I have other interests too). There’re also a couple of movies, but I can’t tell you offhand.
I’m going to check out your post on course correction.
Hi,
Basically I agree on the findings. The finale was twisty, but not really confusing. Many good sci-fi, mystery stories, leave you thinking at the end.
My thougths:
Ben was lured out of DI by Smokie, to be killed, but he survived thanks to the Others (Jacob people). He wiped DI to go back living in the nice house and not in the jungle/middleages. He never saw Jacob and was doing whatever he saw fit to get his way (indirect influence of Smokie?). But how come Alpert never discredited Ben?
JJ (Abrams) – the guy behind Lost (producer/writer/director) is also responsible for Alias. And in Alias it became clear along the way that the main mystery is just a thing that pulls the train further. Nothing more, no deep meaning, no thought out new value. Mixture of twists and revelations with some unreachable mystery and permanent cliffhangers and we are glued. It was so tiresome, fun, but so repetitive… How much Lost is not that? Nothing is really new. Just a new (and overstretched) way to tell a story. I loved the mysteries and myths, but it mostly looks like a lot of interconnected, flat mysteries in an elaborate soap in exotic locations.
They had enough people to keep track of whatever ideas they just came up with… Wheel moving island, machine in the jungle (that is how smokie sounded in the beginng trashin trees at night), bears… Then they invented hydra for the bears (“they figured how to get biscuits in x hours”). So it does not look like they had some cool ideas to tell. It was a lot of small ideas to keep people watching.
Pretty much agree with you there V, couldn’t have said it better.
I didn’t ever really feel betrayed by this show or anything because I never expected anything of it. I just let it be what it was. You either like it, and may repeat it. Or you hate it and walk away.
I never feel like I am sacrificing hours of my life or anything for entertainment such as LOST. I just enjoy it as is, faults and all. I can’t help it.
How much of Alias did JJ have a hand in? He barely did anything for LOST after the first few episodes….from what I recall….
Greetings again everyone. Just wanted to plug my fav movie of all time for those of you whom do enjoy non-linear plot lines and the general atmosphere of “do that just really happen? (maybe), i highly recommend Phantasm. All 4 of ‘em, they’ re basically one big movie built on one another. Anyway, either people seemed hooked and love ‘em, or totally think of them as a waste of time and hate them. As i mentioned, i am hooked. I once drove 8hrs to meet the cast only to turn and drive back the next day, LOL. With that, happy movie watching for those of you who give ‘em a try, hope to pick up some new Phans!!
purgatory? really? thats worse then the alternate timeline thing in star trek (spock kissing uhura, CMON!!) clearly the whole purgatory thing is just a lame excuse to get everyone back together at the end for one big finale. but wait a second, why wasnt walt and micheal there, and what about mr. echo? he wasnt even in this season. i am actually pretty upset that there was absolutely no mr. echo at the end of it all. its weird, if it is a purgatory universe, and everyone has died, then why is aaron still a baby? we know he didnt die as a baby, kate raised him till he was atleast 3. is aaron really dead too and just got stuck being in baby form because claire had to go through the whole giving birth thing? cause it would totally suck to die and then be reborn in purgatory.
sorry i missed the second page. the micheal thing is sort of plausible, but as for the walt and mr. echo theories i do not buy. jack looked pretty at peace when he died. walt was specially linked to the island, that’s why locke saw him when locke was lying in that ditch. I dont care what anyone else thinks walt and micheal were essential to the lost crew. if shannon and boone got to be there, then so shouldve micheal and walt, and mr. echo.
it was cool to get your input on the show, but i also feel i must say that analyzing a show to the extent you have (especially lost) can probably make a person go crazy (i once tried to analyze the show reboot and found myself tearing apart my old computer looking for tiny people). surely you have not yet gone off the deep end, but i still suggest you forget the insanity that is lost and try watching a show with less plot holes. maybe something by HBO. you ever hear of OZ? its pretty violent but it makes you think (the type of thinking like world views and values, not the “ow my head hurts” type of thinking). OZ also has micheal in a wheel chair and mr. echo, and miles is in an episode, but he sort of gets stapled to death. thats right, stapled to death. good times.
Yeah OZ is good rob. Haven’t seen the Miles episode though, that’s classic. I like Breaking Bad too.
Aknot,
I’ve been checking my spam every several days and saw Aknot’s post with all of the unanswered questions. They were brilliant! I got another that has been bothering me – Did they every explain the box or room that can be used to conjure anything up i.e. Locke’s birth dad/Sawyer’s nemesis. I don’t seem to remember that story thread ever being tied up. I guess I just have to except that they neglected to tie up some very important story threads and I should just follow blindly like sheep. Btw Aknot, love the rebuttal stating that some of the posters were probably like sheep when they were kids following and doing without question what they were told – perfect lost fans.
Anyway, I wanted to add that I saw the epilogue. That was an after thought at best. Many things struck me as odd. First, the colour of the footage was almost a sepia, not even close to the same colour grade of a finished episode for air. Secondly, the tone was off in the script, very humourous and not the usual suspense driven scenes we’re accustom to, no surprise it was a deleted scene and never made it to the finale. Thirdly, If DI was wiped out worldwide, then how did the Guam station have money to pay bills and salaries. Usually, when a company goes under it with holds money, capital and resources. Fourth, they conveniently answer more questions in 12 minutes than the entire season 6, which tells me they didn’t think the season through story-wise and produced this short to satisfy the disappointed fans, meaning they understood our disappointment and are now trying to fix it by leaking this video before the dvd release.
Btw, Disney doesn’t let things leak out to the public, they planned it.
Flame ON!
I thought this was pretty apparent… Ben was messing with Locke.. lying to him, Ben lies to everyone, he never told Locke the truth… there was not a box… that was all Ben’s bull crap… they physically went and got Locke’s dad… he said he was driving down the road and BAM… this was the others going and physically getting him. Drugging him up and bringing him to the island on the sub. Thought this was extremely obvious. Also I’m pretty positive that Ben eventually does actually say that there is no box.
Maybe Dharma prepaid for pellet drops in advance for the next 100 years, before they got wiped out? Or maybe the factories that made the DHARMA brand stuff, made enough to stock 1000 warehouses chocked full in GUAM in the 70′s, and after 20 years they’ve still got 800 warehouses to get through. If the writers wanted to they could just make up any old cr*p like this to explain anything. Don’t you guys realise that?
The point is that they didn’t bother to, and that’s why you are pissed. Am I right?
“If the writers wanted to they could just make up any old cr*p like this to explain anything. Don’t you guys realise that? ”
But they didnt…. Along those lines you then have “outside” stuff that may be canon, may not be, etc. (like the game and “stuff” at Comic Con etc)
While that does make an “immersible” experience it “sucks” for average viewers that are not aware of the outside events.
A TV show is a TV show. I shouldn’t have to go to comic con, buy a video game, etc to put all the pieces together. While yes the internet makes it easy/easier, again not everyone is plugged in as much.
For example the show lost both my Mother and Mother Inlaw. I “learned” all my watching from my Mother.. However with LOST she was LOST. When I told her some answers could be found elsewhere she slowly lost interest in a show that in order to complete it would require the viewer to get information elsewhere.
As for my Mother InLaw we would watch it together (TiVo) along with my wife. My wife semi accepted it based on her trusting I knew what I was doing… yet my Mother InLaw was like its not worth the effort if someone else has to pause it and explain stuff that they found online and or in other places..
Using the pallet drop for example.. I found a video expalining that “While the clip is shown, Alvar Hanso states, “…all of the support you will need, including regular medicine and food drops will be made in perpetuity.”
However in that video clip a more current “time” (2006) is shown and they are stating DHARMA failed.. So if DHARMA failed why would they continue the periodic drops?
As for he fail point I would venture to guess that i when they stopped hearing from DHARMA with regards to figuring out the equation…which would either be before or right after the Purge circa 1980s to 1992..
Way before the 815 crash.
Aknot,
This is one of the things that made lost so unique… you just simply can’t be an average viewer and expect to know every little thing. However you CAN be an average Lost viewer and UNDERSTAND the show completely. The extras we get on the side, that was part of the lost experience as a whole. They made it more than just sitting down and watching TV. This is one of the things that made it so special.
Adding little tid bits for fans here and there. And they were tid bits AT VERY BEST… one does not need to know any of the extra stuff not seen in the shows regular air time to understand the show.
I’m case in point… I didn’t pay any attention to the outside stuff much til much later… I haven’t even seen all the extras – probably not even a 1/3 of it. These are just extras to add to the fun of the experience. It’s part of what made Lost different, made it more than just watching television. That’s not “bad writing” it’s “different than what people are used to writing”. Adding extras was actually genius… it was more engaging for Lost fans. And it carries on the longevity of the show.
My girlfriend is a “average” watcher… she didn’t have any problem following along. She never saw ONE IOTA of other information other than what was aired. Still hasn’t to this day. It just depends on how much you feel like paying attention and retaining information. No where does it say that a show can’t be different and add more than what you see. That’s awesome if you ask me. Makes it more fun that we can continue to get little “tid-bits”… For example we find out form the extras in season 6 that it was 6 people from the Black Rock shooting at the time traveling gang of losties in the small canoe. Do we need to know this to understand the show… ABSOLUTELY not. Did I ask my self when I was watching it, “who is shooting at them”? … Of course I did, but did it keep me from knowing what was going on… NO. Did I sit and say “well I can’t continue watching this since I don’t know who was shooting at them and I don’t want to go searching for it online”… lol… no. Cause it didn’t matter. It was part of watching Lost to have a little hidden wonder and mystery. It’s part of what pushed it along as a show. Then, for fun and longevity… Lost writers decide to give these little tid-bits on these side for extra intrigue. Genius.
Aknot… also
“A TV show is a TV show. I shouldn’t have to go to comic con, buy a video game, etc to put all the pieces together. While yes the internet makes it easy/easier, again not everyone is plugged in as much.”
So than this means that Lost writers have to “dumb it down for average people”. Hate to say this but they did what they did to make “more than average viewers” out of us. They tried something different. And again… you CAN watch and understand the show without the extras. You don’t need to know any of it to figure it out.
As always though… love hearing from you Aknot.
And I appreciate you comments and thoughts.
Or they did all of this to make money..
Shooting at them on the outrigger… No one got hit and it had no bearing on the story… was just one of those things.
However pallets of food and supplies that seemingly drop from nowhere just in their time of need is one of those things that you go…. wait… they needed food/supplies and all of a sudden “poof”… So you want/need to know as it pertains and helps the story along.
Now to really understand where/when/why those/that pallet got dropped you needed to go to an outside source to realize they just didn’t make the crap up on the spot..
They need food… uh.. lets drop a pallet of food and supplies. Ok.
I am not saying that is what they did… they may have had every intention of giving background on the show but didnt… However to say it needed to be dumb down so people wouldn’t have to run all over Peoria to figure it out is off kilter.
Make “more than average viewers?”… then why not let us know this? Why not say this will be an event that has to be followed on Facebook, Comic con, Video games, and you have to buy the DVDs…
Im sorry what happened to a TV show being a TV show. When I pay for something and have an expectation of getting it “all” I dont want to have to run around to 4 different stores getting parts of it to make a whole.
“Extras” are fine… However they are no longer extras when they explain/cover a plot point.
@Aknot,
This is again the point I’ve been trying to make. It’s all in how you percieve things. I figured out the pallet thing long before the “extra” info… using tons of different evidence from the show.
Also, I didn’t “buy” for one second that “the man from tallahasee” showed up out of no-where. I understood it as they went and got him as they went and got Juliet. The reason being is when Locke’s dad’s explains the last thing he remembers about being in a car accident. That was the Others hitting him, drugging him, and taking him to the island. This was my perception of the events… so the “box” was never anything more than blah, blah, blah to me.
As for the food pallet drop – WHAT HOLE IN THE PLOT? First of all, for the story to continue no one NEEDS to know where it came from, people WANT to know. All we need to know is that food gets to the island. The drop explained how it gets there. It gets dropped in.
Now you ask well I still want to know who dropped it. … So to this I AGAIN ask… HOW DID I FIGURE IT OUT WITHOUT ANY EXTRA INFO OTHER THAN WHAT THE SHOW GAVE US?
I broke it down to simple facts.
1. All the food on the island has DHARMA plastered all over it.
2. The food on the pallet had DHARMA plastered all over it.
hmmm… what a mystery.
So we are left with two options. Either Dharma was continuing to drop food to the island, or the Others that took control of Dharma’s operations were still having the food dropped.
If it’s Dharma, they are doing unknowingly because we know Dharma is no more… this isn’t hard to believe sice Dharma was so secretive. Some Dharma folk on the island wasn’t even aware of what was really going on there. The hatch was a Dharma station still being operated even though Dharma was DEAD… ??? So, it makes perfect sense that other operations are still operational as well. WE know that food DOES get there… so something is OBVIOUSLY still working regardless of who is behind it.
It’s not that hard to figure out. We know the Others leave the island. We know how secret of an operation Dharma was… we know they were well funded. I could go on and on and on. We know from Juliets story that the Others have taken over the home land operations. If you’d like I’ll list out every little detail (within the show) that helped me figure it all out WITHOUT ANY EXTRA INFO.
My point is that no, I’m not a genius so… the writers did their job if I could figure it out. And if I could figure it out… then anyone should be able to. They just need to SEE the facts. The plot wasn’t dropped at all. They gave me everything I need to find the answer.
I’ll list everything that brought me to that conclusion later today when I have more time if you’d like.
Plus… Ben says “get me the man from Tallahasee”. He gives the order… saying “get him” as if he is already there. No one wishes him into exsistance. Locke doesn’t wish him to be there. Ben gives the order for him to be brought in. … Added explination for me… maybe not some… I precieve it differently.
“Plus… Ben says “get me the man from Tallahasee”. He gives the order… saying “get him” as if he is already there”
Please provide the Season/Episode for this statement as I cant seem to find it….
Sorry I guess the “poop” word is holding up my post. Sorry Vic or whomever has to mod it. ooops
NM found it…
Locke raises his gun warily. Tom leaves. Richard Alpert, his back to Locke, walks closer to Ben.]
BEN: I want you to bring me the man from Tallahassee.
[Locke narrows his eye, confused.]
ALPERT: What do you need him for?
BEN: Just do it. Now.
ALPERT: OK.
Richard the one that provides on the magic Island poofed him there. As there is no way they could of just subbed him there in the that time.
Other then that why have him on the Island? Just in case? If thats the reason why are not other people from other peoples lives there? When did they bring him there? How did they know he was needed…
Oh wait MiB knew and told Ben? Then MiB already knows how this ends…. and if he can’t change it (or cant he I forget what the ruling was with course correction etc was) why fight it….
Regardless of how he gets there, or if for whatever reason he has already been apprehended prior, he gets there… and not by Locke’s wishing him there. Seeing how Ben is the one that asks for him. So when Ben mentions this “box” to Locke it’s easy to understand that Ben is jerking him around. As always.
… Ben and others did there research on the Oceanic 815 survivors early on. They knew all about Jack and you can bet Ben learned everything he needed to know about Locke as well. It wouldn’t be unlike Ben to have Locke’s dad on reserve since he knew he was going to be messing with Locke’s head. Ben did this type of thing all the time. He was a planing, deceitful, cunning little fellow. He used the same type of element against Jack when he brought in the footage of Boston winning the world series. Obviously a human is much harder to retrieve than television footage, but it’s not by any means outside of the others abilities. So whenever Ben got him and how isn’t really important. We know Ben made it happen one way or another. And the sub ride to the island isn’t that long… It could be done. No specific time frame is laid out in this period as I recall – we don’t really know how much time passes from when Ben asks for him and when he shown to Locke. It could have been 48 hrs for all we know. I don’t remember how long Juliet was put under for her travels but it can be assumed it wasn’t that long seeing that I’m unaware of a sedative you can take by mouth that’ll put you out for that long… it wasn’t as if it took her a week to get to the island. Lockes dad coming could have been done over the span of a day if the sub was ready to leave the main land. Locke’s dad says that the last thing he remembers is being hit by a car then everything went black and he woke on the island. Seeing that that last thing he remembers is being hit means he was most likely drugged immediately after. He was sedated, put on the sub and brought to the island. End of story for me – in this instance there wasn’t any magic reason – they literally had him brought to the island – plane and simple. I obviously could be way off… just my opinion. I’ll be able to better address it when I watch the episode again.
“Also, I didn’t “buy” for one second that “the man from tallahasee” showed up out of no-where.”
What?? why not… it is a magic Island…. you said so yourself..
So now we have indication that the Island can be magic when it wants but not other times? You are confusing me more then the show did… Were you a writer for the show? 
Also why should I believe a con man? Especially one as bad as Cooper? Even when talking to Sawyer he was egging him on with no regard to his well being… You mean this one time we see him he is actually telling the truth?
As the story goes they were in need of food and supplies. the story had to provide or they would have to have people starving or have them get food elsewhere.
Plot point plain and simple. It is not like they could go down to the local market. So something had to be created to provide.
I dont want to know WHO dropped it. Im in agreement it was somehow DHARMA provided. What we have is:
An Island that moves.
An Island that is NO LONGER DHARMA controlled.
So again while DHARMA may have been somewhat active stateside there is no reason they would have actively kept people on board for no reason. ALSO since the “drop” catalyst appears to be hidden behind a chess game it is safe to assume there hasn’t been a drop in a loooooong time.
So when the drop was activated (via the chess game) and food arrives, I call bullshit plain and simple.
I say to myself.. gee they needed it and they got it… Nice PLOT HOLE just making up shit.
Then we get (20 years later?) Ben going to Guam to shut them down because two peons have been making pallets…. on a regular basis (as indicated by short fat telling tall skinny he didnt want to miss that) and doing what with them? As they were paid for/supplied by whom?
Aknot,
“Also why should I believe a con man? Especially one as bad as Cooper?”
WHAT?!?!
What you should be asking is why would you believe a con man? ESPECIALLY ONE AS BAD AS BEN!!! But you took Ben on his word that there is this magical box? If we know anything it’s to question Linus when he’s saying something… especially when he’s saying it to Locke.
Cooper thought he was dead and in hell. He was simply under the impression that non of it mattered anymore. “Pretty hot for heaven don’t you think”?
Your sarcasm is extremely appreciated. Yup, it’s a “special” island but many things can be explained by good old-fashioned foot work. Honestly there is no evidence that supports Locke’s dad just “poofing” (as you say it) out of nowhere. If you think that, then it EXPLAINS why you think they left things out. There is evidence that it’s possible he was physically brought to the island just like Juliet. We no the Others resources and their means of transportation. Some of the mysteries… or lack there of, aren’t explained by the super natural but by NORMAL occurrences – that’s sometimes the surprise to.
Aknot you wrote -
“So again while DHARMA may have been somewhat active stateside there is no reason they would have actively kept people on board for no reason. ALSO since the “drop” catalyst appears to be hidden behind a chess game it is safe to assume there hasn’t been a drop in a loooooong time.”
“THEY” “DHARMA” didn’t actively keep anyone on board. Ben and the Others did… They infiltrated Dharma and took over. Put it this way, if you were Ben and food was coming to the island to easily feed your people on a regular basis… WHY WOULD THEY WANT TO STOP THAT??? I’d just let them keep sending it. It’s a constant, consistent source of sustenance. It makes all the sense in the world that the OTHERS would continue some of the operations Dharma had going for them. The food drops were helpful and useful. It sent them supplies. They took over the barracks, they took over the experiment stations, they took over the medical stations… they lived as Dharma lived and gained from what they had. If you took over the identity of someone you would use all their nice stuff to, no? I honestly don’t see the problem here? … It makes perfect sense that Ben and the others would have the food continue to come. There was no reason to stop it.
The whole thing makes every lick of sense it needs to.
Take Juliets story for example. Richard and Ethan are others… they are assuming the role of something else, much like Dharma associates… talking about their company such. They’ve taken over Dharma’s locations state side. They’ve taken their funding, there power, their intelligence. Ethan was in Dharma to remember… he was a Doctor. Whoever they the Others took them over they did… it started with the purge and continues from there. The evidence is everywhere… one being Richard and Ethan parading around State side talking about home office and such. Hell… The Others wealth speaks for itself… the only possible place it could have came from is DHARMA.
Anyways…
I can’t recall exactly how the Chess game in the flame had anything to do with the food drop? … I’ll have to watch that again – sorry.
Yeah that’s right, Ben and Richard’s company was called Mittelos right. Maybe Mitellos bought out Dharma stateside after the purge or someth?
And the chess game food drop, totally forgot about that, good call Aknot.
No Travis I believed you when saying it was a mgical Island…. and things happend “Because”…
busy though I had to throw that in.
The whole thing makes every lick of sense it needs to.
??
The whole company would have to have been completely taken over… again just an assumption because it “works”. You would also have to take over the Hanso Foundation also as they funded the Dharma initiative…
You have an Island with people there for a reason…. they are doing science stuff.
What 20 years with no results…. yet lets keep dropping food.. Pierre Chang dying in the Purge yet no one cares about this?? All of these people gone… and no one questions it?
If I was DHARMA/Hanso I would be wondering where Doctor Chang was, why I was still “funding” this with no results, why Ben “the janitors son” was running things etc.
Again it was made apparent by canon stuff that DHARMA failed. Yet it is really unclear as the people responsible for this stuff (writers? continuity people? Keebler Elves?) opened it all up and never followed through…
No Richard and Ethan parading around stateside was nothing but a front. And just how did they “cure” Juliettes sister as promised? Nothing short of a miracle…or magic. “When Juliet replied you will never bring her on the Island, he replied that Jacob said he will take care of it himself.”
“Juliet also mentioned that no-one in the medical community had ever heard of Mittelos Bioscience.”
Mittelos was nothing but a front. While I can believe Ben had “people” stateside and some kind of pull and bankroll it was not on that level. At best he had secrets and ways to manipulate people for favors.
As for the food drop itself… No one knows.
the only hint to it is when Locke is playing Chess “wins” Chang appears in a video and then a menu is given and if 2-4 is pressed a food drop will happen.
Mikhail Bakunin was in the flame and I THINK based on his discussion with Locke was not aware how to access that menu and initiate the food drop. Sayid also found the Flames food drop protocol.
So how then the two in Guam got a notice to drop food is beyond me and the only logical explanation is it was “requested” when there was a lockdown.
However since there were 2 or 3 other “lockdowns” with no food drops makes that a moot point.
So again no explanation for the food drop…. No reasons Guam would still be packing pallets for as long as they were, etc.
Taken from wiki-lostpedia
Ben then went on to show Locke a man who he claimed came out of the magic box, gagged and tied to a chair. The man was Anthony Cooper, Locke’s father. (“The Man from Tallahassee”)
When Locke pressed Ben for more about the box, Ben snapped back that “the box is a metaphor, John.” Despite this, he continues to maintain that by some agency things that people on the island want or need show up. (“The Brig”) Later, when Ben and Locke entered the Orchid, Locke marveled at the mysterious technology and asked if this was the magic box. Ben retorted that it was not. (“There’s No Place Like Home, Part 2″)
Producer’s commentary
In the March 26, 2007 podcast, executive producer Damon Lindelof confirmed that the box reference is a metaphor for something else: “It would be kind of silly to walk to the middle of the island and there’s a kind of a big large refrigerator box sitting there and Kate’s horse comes trotting out and Sayid’s little cat and Jack’s dad … that would be kind of the worst idea in the history of ideas.”
So, given the info above it would seem to me that Ben never explained the “Box” and it wasn’t “apparent” as some fanboys claim. Lastly, Lindelof says showing a box in the middle of the jungle where horses trot out of and other mysteries originate from would be “the worst idea in the history of ideas”
Well that’s funny (sarcasm) they wrote in this plot line with a box, locke’s dad steps out of it who is then killed by Sawyer b/c Cooper scammed his mom that subsequently drove Sawyer’s dad into a fit of rage and committed matricide. Imho, that sounds like a pretty important box they never explained since explaining it would be “the worst idea in the history of ideas”. I get the impression they took a ton of liberaties i.e. time travel, alt universes, electro magnetic events, moving mystical islands, smoke entities etc and never had the intent to answer the questions they raised since the answers would be the worst ideas (answers) in the history of ideas” – straight out of the black horses mouth. That’s a metaphor btw.
Sorry, one last point. If the epilogue holds any truth to it, then why is Walt only a teen (possibly a twentysomething) and not a grown man if Ben and Hurley were in charge of the island. Was it a short stint? Did they travel back in time to grab Walt then take him into the future where they are older and there time is up as heads of the island? Too many illogical leaps have to be made to come up with an answer to something that never had an answer since they were just red herrings strung together, never meant to make sense, just to drive the action and series.
Lindelof is not saying that explaining the box would be the worst idea in the world, he’s saying that he can’t believe people actually took that dialogue seriously, and that if that were the case, it would be the worst idea ever. He already knew the idea was silly. That was the point of Ben saying it to Locke. He was mocking him. IT WAS A METAPHOR… Ben was feeding Locke horse manure as always. I never actually thought Ben was being serious about the box. We know they have a sub and they can bring people to the island (ie Juliet). It’s not that crazy of a thought that they simple went and got him. Lindelof is surprised that anyone would actually think that this “box” was anything but a metaphor. He’s expecting that most viewers aren’t complete hams and intelligent enough to see what the writers are trying to say. I can’t believe that anyone actually thought the box was real at any point. It was obvious that Ben was using it metaphorically. And HELLO people… most of LOST is a METAPHOR over all anyways. Honestly it seems that the writers gave viewers to much credit because so many just don’t get it.
Travis, your soo much smarter than the average lost viewer – not. It’s odd that the writers wanted us to take alt universes, mystical islands, purgatory and such so seriously and not the box that they simply explained away as a metaphor. It’s very easy for the writers and fans like yourself to proclaim from their ivory towers that “x” is relevant and “y” isn’t. Whats true and whats false. Why ask when fanboys call you a fool and have been given too much intellectual credit. Weak comeback Travis. Go back to rewatching lost and extrapolating and formulating theories that conveniently fit your blind love for the series. btw, it’s convenient you ignored many intelligent questions posters asked and simply dismissed it as “it is what it is” or “you wouldn’t be satisfied with that answer cuz it’s illogical, and you don’t like fuzzy logic”. Maybe the lowest common denominator gets it and the rest of intelligent being find it a waste of time. keep watching we’ll keep living.
Brian
…. did you just use a “quip” from the 90′s??? … seriously? (not)? That’s really where this response should stop.
So as you’re doing your living what the hell are you doing here posting???
Sorry for not addressing all your questions… I’m at work and bouncing back and fourth while I wait for my videos to render.
If you don’t like the show then you have no purpose here. I’m only here to try and help those looking for answers that are confused and want help. You’re attacking me over an internet blog? You’re incredible macho pal. Keep it up – I love hypocrites, you are amusing. You dog me for writing on here yet you’re here to… and you don’t even like the show… who’s perplexed?? Are you sad that you didn’t get what you wanted out of Lost?? Are you hurt… because you act hurt. You seem to do just as much research as any of us. So please do keep it up… as I said hypocrites are awesome.
The box thing was simple to understand. I wasn’t attacking you at all. Just stating that for me it wasn’t a mystery. Michael Emerson acted/portrayed that perfectly. Was pretty cut and dry.
If you’d like to insult me in person let me know. Seriously. Let me know.
Also… they didn’t “explain it away” as a metaphor… it was written as a metaphor, was always supposed to be a metaphor. They were expecting everyone to understand that. It was simply Ben doing what he does best… lying.
You’re free to your opinion as much as I am mine and I’ll spend my time however I please. It’s mine to spend. You spent some yourself on Lostepidea gathering quotes from the writers… your attacks at me are extremely hypocritical.
Everyone on this blog is entitled to their own opinion… me liking the show so much is no different than you hating it. The only difference is I’m being positive. So we disagree… so I see something you don’t… whatever man. Go “live” then… and degrading my way of life and how I spend my time is extremely ignorant buddy.
Travis
Wow, strong reply. Come on up to Toronto and I’ll be happy to insult you and more to your face. Regarding the use of “not” and your response… well simply put that was weak like many of your THEORIES. Btw, I don’t live on the forums like you do, I happened to check my spam out of boredom and thought to respond b/c at one time I really enjoyed the show. Season 6 eroded at any love I had for the show, i can’t extrapolate any and all things in the show and come up with answers – too many illogical leaps have to be made. Btw, you were conveniently extrapolating again when you spoke on behalf of Lindelof. Stop putting words in the writer and producer’s mouths, you don’t have the answers they are just YOUR theories that you find satisfying, not the rest of us. btw, I didn’t make this personal, you enjoy making back handed comments throughout all your posts when people don’t see eye to eye with you. I was just fed up of hearing from lord of the lost – you – and the weak theories. Keep theorizing cuz they’re just theories, nothing can and ever will be confirmed even if the writers/producers/creator came out yesterday and held a press conference. The proof is on the screen and it wasn’t there. Done with you, thanks.
Spam? … You physically have to sign up to get replies to these posts… it’s not spam. You subscribe to this thread, you can unsubscribe whenever you want.
You’re tired of me as I am tired of all the haters. We’re no different. We just have difference in views. I’m sick of people bashing it.
I’m not back handing anyone in particular and if I am then are doing the same. So agree to disagree. You think you’re right and so do I… I’m not disagreeing with anyone I’m saying “I” think it all makes perfect sense. I wish that all could have enjoyed the show as much as I did. So I try to help people that ask for it. If you’re done with Lost then be done with it then. Unsubscribe to the post. If you’re “sick of it” then logic tells me you’ve been reading it so stop making excuses about how you got here. Sounds like a closet Lost fan with excuses to me. You were done with the show in season 6, then that means you didn’t see the end? Or wait… you did watch it and just lied? Which is it? Because if you didn’t see it then your credentials aren’t valid.
If I’m putting words in Lindelof’s mouth than so are you. It’s all in how you perceive what he saying. You put as many words in his mouth as I did???
And if you attack the way I spend my time expect a strong reply. I’m not your average fan… trust me. I don’t know you so don’t think you know me from my banter over a silly blog such as this. I’m a fan of the show and I respect the writers for what they were able to do…
If you’re ever in Chicago maybe we can watch a few episodes together.
The “box” itself was the metaphor. Not the ability. Meaning the Island gave you what you wanted/desired.
“When Locke pressed Ben for more about the box, Ben snapped back that “the box is a metaphor, John.” Despite this, he continues to maintain that by some agency things that people on the island want or need show up.”
So with that the pallet could have been easily “explained”. All they needed to do was either put a packing list on the pallet dated 1980 and signs that it was hanging in the trees and just finally broke.
OR
Have a packing list and container labeled as some UN food drop or something, with someone mentioning is could have got caught in a hurricane or some other windy thing and completely shot off course.
That would/could be seen as the Island doing it. Also there was nothing else that just “showed up” giving people what they wanted “ala Magic Box” was there? Maybe because two people deep down wanted the same thing at the same time on the Island? (Sawyer and Locke)
I enjoyed the first 5 seasons of the show, too, but in season 6 they’ve just screwed everything up.
And before i forget….. I will be going away and not be able to access a PC…. I leave 9/12 so probably wont post after 9/10.
Dont think Ive given up, died or some such…
Please play nice.
You will be sorely missed. Hurry back.