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Looper’s Time Travel Paradoxes
Time travel stories are tricky; there always seem to be loose ends left dangling, and/or connections that don’t quite add up. Looper, unfortunately, suffers this problem as well.
The biggest issue, as always, is the multiverse factor: if a guy from the future comes to the past and starts mucking with history, it either A) creates a separate timeline that runs parallel to the original one (allowing for two versions of history), or B) The actions in the past forever alter the flow of a single timeline, allowing for just one version of events. Looper plays fast and loose with this time travel mechanic, at times relying on both single timeline and multiverse timeline approaches to push the story forward.
For example: Old Joe still existing after he meets and affects Young Joe shows that multiple timelines are possible – but tricks like Young Joe carving messages in his arm that show up on Old Joe as scars would have us assume that there is one timeline wherein the fate of one Joe is directly tied to the other. Johnson gets by the issue via vague expositional throwaways such as Old Joe’s memory – is it being revised by his actions in the past? Or is he open to remember several versions of history? (Sorry, no clear answers – it’s too cloudy to say for sure!)
However, a few minutes of thought reveal a lot of paradoxical problems woven into this plot:
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Old Joe & The Rainmaker
The biggest thing to address is the paradox involving Old Joe’s mission to stop the Rainmaker (Cid). Looper shows us a montage of Joe’s life in which Young Joe in fact unwittingly kills Old Joe out in the cornfields, and goes on to live what he thinks will be his happy, post-looper life – only to become the drug addict gun-for-hire (and eventual lover) that is Old Joe. Old Joe then jumps back to the past to change this course of events, and the movie we witness is therefore the alternate timeline where Old Joe escapes his execution.
…However, the movie hints (in the diner scene with young and old Joe) that Old Joe’s heinous actions in the past are what push young Cid to become the fearsome “Rainmaker.” As we see in the climax of the film, Old Joe’s crazed mission forces Young Joe to kill himself to save Cid – but this is a paradox.
If The Rainmaker exists in Old Joe’s future timeline, it suggests that Old Joe’s baby-killing mission in the past was predetermined to happen. So then how could there ever be a version of events where Old Joe was executed by Young Joe, and Young Joe goes on to become Old Joe?
Even if Old Joe had fulfilled his destiny (killing Sara, disfiguring Cid), Young Joe would have been aware of his older self’s actions and been changed by them – he wouldn’t become the Old Joe we saw in the montage, because the exact thing that would’ve made Cid the Rainmaker would also change Young Joe forever (the presence of Old Joe).
Bottom line: Old Joe’s timeline where both he and the Rainmaker co-exist is a paradox. A version of history wherein Old Joe kills Sara and creates the Rainmaker is also a paradox. Old Joe cannot be the origin of the Rainmaker as we are told he is.
In a climactic moment, Young Joe (via voiceover) describes seeing an unending cycle of time travel violence that creates monsters like the Rainmaker and Old Joe – and the only way to break it is suicide. A noble speech, noble idea, good plot twist and intriguing thematic arc… but it doesn’t hide the fact that there is a big gaping paradox at the center of the movie.
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Young & Old Seth
This tangential subplot to the film actually raises quite a few paradoxal issues. Similar to Young Joe, Young Seth (Paul Dano) fails to kill his older self. Old Seth goes on the run until Kid Blue (Noah Segan) and the gatmen capture Young Seth and surgically amputate him as a means of incapacitating Old Seth.
Here again, we get a muddled version of timeline mechanics: If history is one timeline, then Old Seth should have instantly seen the amputated changes to his body the moment he escaped from Young Seth; the fact that limbs disappeared one at a time suggests multiverse possibility (Young Seth loses one finger, but there’s still alternate possibilities wherein he keeps the other nine, etc.). But if we’re talking multiverse theory, the Old Seth we see shouldn’t be affected by the amputations – it should be some alternate Old Seth of an alternate timeline who suffers that fate.
That’s not to mention the sheer number of future events that would have been altered when Young Seth is left incapacitated; start thinking about the Butterfly Effect and your head is liable to explode.
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The Two Joes
Like the Seths, the paradoxal nature of Looper’s time travel story is seen in the two Joes. Simply put: it’s impossible for these two Joe’s to both exist and have a connection whereby Young Joe can leave scar messages in Old Joe’s skin, or Old Joe is clouded with Young Joe’s memories. Again, the movie shows us that Old Joe comes from a particular timeline, and that the Young Joe we meet is living in a now alternate timeline, where Old Joe’s actions steer him down a very different path.
In single timeline theory, Old Joe should’ve suffered a Back to the Future vanishing act the moment that Young Joe turns any one of the emotional corners he does in that second act of the film on the farm (bonding with Cid, falling for Sara, realizing he could one day become a baby-killer, etc.). Young Joe had already started down a path of emotional growth and change, meaning he could never become the Old Joe we meet – yet when Young Joe kills himself, poof! Old Joe is gone as if they are directly tied to one another. Either Old Joe should’ve reflected the emotional changes in Young Joe (which would’ve prevented him from baby killing ) – OR, Young Joe’s suicidal act shouldn’t have affected Old Joe, since Old Joe would’ve been from an alternate timeline.
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We could go on and on like this, but we would inevitably find ourselves arriving back at the same conumdrum: time travel theory: you just can’t have it both ways. Looper crafts a very good story out of a wild sci-fi premise, and while it dodges a lot of its own potholes scene-to-scene, when viewed from a distance its clear that Rian Johnson has not yet cracked the time travel movie conundrum.
For an in-depth discussion of the film by the Screen Rant team check out the Looper episode of the SR Underground podcast.
Looper is now playing in theaters.
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the biggest problem is the film its self, after about 30 mins “young” joe dies, “future” joe never exists and time resets to him shooting his future self in the corn fields, which means based on the film, “young” joe’s suicide cancels out what we watch and the entire film. time resets in a never ending loop.
the other paradox’s aside (and there are a lot of them), sid creates the biggest since with no rainmaker, 1. theres no one to close the loops early, 2.old joes wife does die and he doesnt rebel against being sent back 3. both of which means the events leading to joes suicide never happened, paradox.
Lastly sid cant be joe since we know sid grow up to be the rainmaker, who in the future was a separate person to old joe
Great points all around. Which is why this film deserves raspberries rather than kudos. Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy writing.
I don’t believe Young Joe’s fall at ~30 min lead to his death, it’s more like a take on his point of view of what happened in his apartment when he came back in town.
As for paradoxes, the movie tries to comply to a single linear timeline, so what happened in the past because of the will and actions of people from the future stays in the past as something that just happened, no matter where (or when) those people originated from. The movie tells the story of what happened in some instances of a given timeline. Whether or not it makes sense with laws of the universe doesn’t really matter as long as they comply with the rules they decided to go with.
Lets face it this is just a movie and should be admired as such. The physics however are a constant and laws of the universe should not be messed with. Having said that I do believe that Cid and Joey ( old and new ) are not the same person but two souls on the same space time thread.
Just like a vynil record has a number of tracks on one side simultaniously. When the needle gets to the centre record, if not lifted it will go around and around on the same spot. Even if it is lifted and placed back at the start it will still play the same songs that are groved in the material on that side with no change. You would have to flip the whole record over, which would be an alternated dimension.
Another issues that arises, is if Joey/ Cid become the Rainmaker in the future, why would he try to kill himself by sending in the Gat men to get future Joey. They also could not cohabit the same future time thread similtaniously. If he had witnessed himself, talking to himself as Joey in the the tunnel, then killing himself, he, being the Rainmaker would know that they are all the same person. Therefore Cid/ Rainmaker and Joey /old and young are not the same person.
Alternate explanation of the whole story.
The rainmaker comes along with his massive telekenetic powers and destroys the world.
The goverment (not the mob) initiates a massive program to try and influence the situation, to stop the creation of the Rainmaker, or at least prevent him from becoming evil. They invent time travel, travel to the past, and try to snuff out the rainmaker. The problem is that anyone they send to the past gets easily confused – much like old Joe and the salt. It makes the plan hard to execute. perhaps because the Rainmaker is so important to future history, killing him is not an option, or very very difficult. They fail, or even make things worse. They can’t ever seem to get it right. They decide to be very subtle – change lots and lots of things to minor historical characters to effect a big change on the rainmaker.
Young Joe is conditioned from birth to be the person that will end/change the Rainmaker. He was carefully selected by Abe. His background is engineered to closely match that of the Rainmaker (dead mother, lonely, anger issues, etc.). His hooker grilfriend strokes his hair like his mother used to? She just happens to look a lot like Sara, Cid’s mother? She declines half of Young Joe’s silver? She just happens to have one of three children born on the same day as the rainmaker? She is there for a purpose, she has orders from Abe on what to do or not do. And Abe encouraging Joe to go to Shanghai? Selecting him as the youngest Looper? Not torturing him for information? What about Sara knowing all about Loopers? Going back home to take care of Cid? And there is the critical information given to Old Joe just before he is sent back? Everything has been engineered from the start to create the outcome at the end of the movie, Young Joe killing himself, Cid learning to control his anger and power. Hundreds or even thousands of loops were necessary to make this happen. Every event in the film was staged to cause this.
That’s the crux of the argument. Dichotomy. Does he destroy the world or save it? Does he only destroy it from the perspective of those who are evil, but have been set up in the movie to be the “good guys”?
And that’s the problem many of us have: it ISN’T “dichotomy” at all. Rather, it is simply irrational, illogical, sloppy time-travel fiction writing. In other words, all of these arguments about “what young Joe does in the end” are moot, because the situation would never exist in the first place.
I love this explanation very much…
If you remember that each time a loop escapes it can factor change on the reality and outcome of the future massively (hence why its a major issue if a loop is not closed!).
Also, the ‘new’ reality only becomes a reality when it occurs (the current present). Hence gradual mutilation..
I totally agree with Manny – ONE HUGE RASPBERRY to bad writing. Couldn’t pay me to see a sequal.
Don’t worry, no one’s gonna pay a person who has trouble spelling “sequel”.
LOL – no need to vent inferiority here.
Well, all of you who found the writing or plot points or…whatever aspects of the film so horribly bad: Just realize that many people viewed all of these elements as being excellent and effective and found the film to be a wonderful example of science fiction cinema…and a pretty darned good example of a time travel film.
Point taken Arch but keep in mind that although some loved it, some hated it and everyone is just stating their opinions. So to all who loved and all who hated, we agree to disagree. End of discussion.
There was no discussion, lyndy. Several people stated one side’s opinion (a couple of them almost as if it was silly even to disagree). I merely reminded them that there IS, in fact, an opposite viewpoint so that they might remember and even consider that the other side has just as much legitimacy. To wit…You hated it; I loved it. You thought it badly made; I found it well-constructed.
http://visual.ly/‘looper’-explained-infographic
There, that explains it. Also, there could be plenty of other timelines before A all doing the same thing leading up to A, you just didn’t see it in the movie.
The movie sucks, i understand that time travel movies will always have paradoxes, but come on there is a really simple question that every one is avoiding. If Young Joe wanted to stop Old Joe from creating the rainman, why not shoot his hand off so that he can’t hold his gun. I dunno about you guys but i would rather be missing a hand than to be dead. Second smaller question Why would you want to kill yourself, i understand you have to but after old joe escapes and young joe is on the hit list, why not work together. I’m sure Old joe would have some usfull information about the future
So…you really didn’t get the point of Young Joe’s drastic decision? He realized that he would risk falling back into the thought patterns that led to Rainmaker’s creation (or could lead to someone/something even WORSE) were he to live out his life to the time of Old Joe. He sacrificed himself knowing that ultimately he would never change (or, at least, change ENOUGH to save the future from the Rainmaker. The irony, of course, is that his younger self realized what his older older self never had (and seemingly, judging by Old Joe’s attitude and actions): The ONLY change he would make that would be effective was one that took him out of the equation altogether.
I found the film brilliant, at least in terms of its time-inspired characterizations.
UGH!
There should be a parenthesis after “from the Rainmaker”. Inside the last parentheses should be: “and seemingly, judging by Old Joe’s attitude and actions, never would”.
It was a moment of high tension, maybe he didn’t think of that.
Oh for heaven sakes…shoot off one hand learn to shoot with the other. AMEN! This movie does not follow what we traditionally know about time travel, timelines, paradoxes, etc. This is fictional so the author can incorporate any fantasy he desires, which he so did in writing all kinds of liberal views. I don’t even bother anymore because there are too many loopholes (no pun intended) to this story. I just want to know what happens to Cid….is he eventually swayed to the dark side LOL?
Actually, Sara wasn’t SIDs real mother
How do you figure Sara wasn’t Cid’s mother???
Helen…
Sarah is, indeed, Cid’s biological mother. Her sister, the woman Cid thought of as his mom and who died, was Cid’s aunt. Sarah was, initially, quite irresponsible and selfish, so the aunt raised Cid until her death. At that point, Sarah “woke up” and took up her responsibilities as Cid’s mother in more than mere name.
Ok my mum has confused me. She seems to think that young joe and old joe is Cid (the rainmaker) can u plz explain it more to me
I think the first explanation given here, makes the most sense. Joe is not Cid and at the end, by commiting suicide, destroying Old Joe, Cid is no longer an abandoned child (because Old Joe kills Sara) who grows up to be Rainmaker.
Remember, in any good time travel story, once Older meets younger version of self, and they begin to change time a few moments ahead at a time, the future is already changing and memories are wiping and changing from the Older version. They even show this happening to Old Joe. He says in the diner scene where they meet in the beginning, let’s not sit here and discuss time travel…it’ll go on forever (pun?). Point being, it becomes “fuzzy” science, once the two meet and start to change events leading to future, while both are in the present. I love the first explanation, which was the one I had in my mind when I finished watching the movie.
Here is a theory about the way loopers time physics work. The things don’t happen to future self until it happens in the past because until that point the future self could always change it by interacting. Like why joe didn’t disappear until after young joe actually killed himself. Because 1 old joes actions caused the suicide and 2 until that time old joe could stop young joe. So as long as a person from the future is in the past they are not directly linked with the future and anything after the moment they arrived in the past is no longer set in stone and is subject to change due to the future persons interactions. And since at anytime the future self has that effect things aren’t set in stone until they happen cause at that moment it is o longer possible for the future self to change it. Like if young joe cuts off his finger in three days old joe can go and stop the finger cutting but if young joe cuts off his fingers right after meeting old joe then joe can’t stop him because it has happened while joe is in the past. Please comment i enjoy reading people’s opinions
I think that old joe living out his past/present (trying to kill rainmakers mom) was not a problem because as he said it is fuzzy and as he goes it gets worse and younge joe was changing the corse of old joes life ever since he tore that map and went there. otherwise if that would of been part of the futer than old joe would of prevented it but the ripple effect of events and old joe losing his memory i think was all caused from younge joe tearing that part of the map.
Original Timeline
No Loopers
Sara never has a child, So no Cid
Time travel is created in 2074
Abe gets sent back to 2030s to create Loopers
2nd Timeline
Because of Abe actions in the past, Sara had Cid (Abe could be the father, the meeting could have taken place in Abe Club, or the father is a newly employed Looper), Sara abandon him, Reunites after Sister dies, she never tells him the truth, Cid never trust her
Seth and Joe close their loops
Joe retires and moves to France
Abe gets sent back to the 2030s
Cid kills the Crime families and closes loops early
Joe is sent back time bound and gagged
3rd Timeline
Abe actions cause Sara to have Cid, Cid still turns into the Rainmaker
Loops are Closed Early
Seth loop Runs
Abe tells Joe to retire to China instead of France
Joe successfully closes his loop and moves to china and falls in love
Abe gets sent back to the 2030s
Cid kills the Crime families and closes loops early
Joe wife is shot, enraging him, escapes and goes back in time without hood
4th Timeline
Abe actions cause Sara to have Cid
Loops are Closed Early
Seth and Joe loops run off
Joe meets Sara causing Sara to tell Cid the truth, possibly preventing Cid to turn into the rainmaker
Joe misunderstands time thinking he is causing a loop kills himself to prevent it
I don’t hear anyone asking what, to me, is one of the more obvious plot issues. How does Joe narrate his own death, in the past tense? His last words: “… so I changed it.” From what vantage point is he saying that?
Kevin, this would not be a first for movies. There are several movies were the main character narrates their own death. Carlito’s Way comes to mind.
Sunset Boulevard
Aside from the paradoxes already adressed, i had one main problem with the film. During the montage of old Joes life it showed he closed his loop. How then did the rainmaker go on to become the evil tk hitler during old joes reality if no one was there to shoot his mom?
You’re forgetting that the film establishes the fact that the shooting of the “mom” (whether by Joe or someone else), itself, was not the only cause of Cid’s corruption; he also felt alone, as he did not accept Sarah as his mother. His anger continued to grow…until Young Joe showed up. YJ helped Cid realize he, in fact, is NOT alone, so his anger might be (the end narration leads one to believe WILL be) kept in check.
It made great sense. The film was excellently constructed and fleshed-out.
i understand what you’re saying but i dont understand how joe killing himself solves anything. The biggest problem to be is the conflict of multiple timelines vs a singular one. If its a singular one than Joe cannot kill himself once and not kill himself another time. This movie constantly give elements of a singular one. You cant mix them up, it has to be one or the other, and that is the movie’s biggest downfall. I dont know, im just hoping you can better clarify things for me if you can.
Hey Arch, happy to see you’re still in there promoting the movie!! LOL (just bugging you). I agree that parts of this movie were brilliantly written. but when you read back to all comments there is mass confusion and questions. For every answer there’s another question. I have to agree although frustrating for many, the story is great but has so many loopholes with the plot you can’t walk away knowing exactly what just happened and maybe that’s what the author wanted. Keep up the good work! I enjoy reading everyone’s theories.
I try to check to check in from time to time
I know there’s quite a bit of confusion, but I don’t see that as a detriment to the successful defense of the film’s positive qualities. In the end, we’re all just expressing our opinions about (and, often, our passion for) this film and countless others.
Two other films in recent memory that have generated as much (if not MORE) confusion/tension/division/passion are “Inception” and “The Hunger Games”. I thoroughly both of THOSE films as well…
Hrrrm…that should be “thoroughly ENJOYED both…”
I thoroughly enjoyed the Hunger Games, understood it all and hope to see more movies like this in the future.
I understand why Cid became the Rainmaker (in Old Joe’s timeline) and understand why he wanted to close all the loops – because he knew one of them would come back in time to try and kill him. Cid was born in 2039 and present day for Young Joe is 2044, so that makes Cid 5 for Young Joe, but 35 for Old Joe before he travels back. What the movie doesn’t explain – why does Cid wait until 6 months before Old Joe hits his 30 years to take power?
OK – Old Joe comes back to 2044 to kill the Rainmaker because his henchmen kill Old Joe’s wife. The only reason why Young Joe – meets Sara is because he’s chasing Old Joe. As a result, Sara helps Young Joe go through withdrawal – so then Old Joe would never meet the Chinese wife who’s nursed him back to health and who’s death causes him to travel back and kill the Rainmaker – at that point it becomes unnecessary. Also, when Sara started bringing Young Joe back to health, you could see Old Joe’s memories getting fuzzy again – so then why didn’t the picture in Old Joe’s watch change from the Chinese wife to Sara?
The future was not defined yet, so memories that existed were still viable and fluid. Had YJ not killed himself and found some other way of bringing about the same result, then, YES, the picture would have (for the film to have any sense of internal consistency) changed to one of Sarah…
I’m a little disappointed that the writer choose to borrow (some would say paid tribute) to other movies or shows. For example, the Loopers get their assignments on a slip of paper with the time written on it (that was taken from a Showtime show – Dead Like Me). Someone is sent back to kill a person that changes history (just like John Connor in Terminator). Of course the idea of time paradoxes in Back to the Future II (multiple Marty’s in 1955 – the Marty that came from 1985 and the other one that came from 2015)
Here is my feeble attempt at fixing science:
Just like we have gravity in the third dimension, the fourth dimension has its own laws that try to correct any changes between two versions of the same person existing in the same point in time. These laws are unable to affect brain chemistry well. It happens in real time as the old version is originally from an alternate timeline and is adapting to the present reality as it diverges. Old Joe gains scars at the same time New Joe does b/c only then do the laws of time take effect. (Before you argue, look at Newton’s three laws of motion, remove common sense, and ask whether or not his reasoning should be anymore true.)
As for the Old Joe/ Rainmaker thing, Cid is a genius. The Cid from the timeline Young Joe dies to prevent could one day build a device that allows him to cross time streams using the fifth or sixth dimensions. Then, he does evil stuff and kills loopers b/c he knows Sara was killed by one and he wants vengeance.
Hey, what about that scene where Cid is traveling on a train just like young Joe told?
What about it? Cid is on the train AFTER the events of the film leading up to that point. It may be an action Joe took at some point when he was younger, but it doesn’t actually relate in any particular way. Heck, I’ve ridden a train before, but I assure you that I did not grow up to become a telekinetic “Hitler”…nor am I Cid, his dad, or his son.
Could be CID and Joes the same?
Cid and Joe are NOT the same person…for reasons MANY people have pointed out over the course of this thread.
The outcome of any new potential future does not get set in stone until it occurs in the present.
Once it happens, it HAPPENED! Until it has happened though, it only COULD happen (haze of memory = memory could become changed and likely to if any critical difference in outcome).
This movie reminded me of The Butterfly Effect when the unborn child changes his own future at the end of the movie. If he can do that then how do we see all the future versions of the child??? Time travel hurts my head but the little boy in Loopers? Why did the actor’s real mother allow him to take that role in the first place, smearing a tiny boy in blood, egad. Okay, real mother signing off.
To one Mom from Another: Because the little boy was a professional actor. When they smear the red coloring on him, he knows it’s red coloring. When you see many child actors in interviews, they are not tainted or scarred from their roles. Many of these kids at a young age want to act and thank goodness because some have produced the star actors we have today. Just sayin’….
I think you guys are missing the biggest plot twist here though. If Joey is Cid, that means he had sex with his Mom. 0_o
I think you guys are missing the biggest plot twist here though. If Joey is Cid, that means he had s*x with his Mom. 0_o
I believe it’s been pretty well established throughout the course of this thread that CID is not related to Young or Old Joe. I thought so at first but realize that really isn’t possible in this story. I think the similarities between CID’s life and Young Joe’s life are just that and because they are similar, YJ wants to help CID.
Is it possible that Joe is the father of Cid and/or his hooker friend’s son? Sarah was getting around a lot in those days and probably wouldn’t have remembered Joe 5 years-9 months later. It would not have affected the time paradoxes, but Sarah going out with Loopers would explain how she knew so much. If everyone knew, there might have been an investigation that put an end to the smooth operation in present day (2044). PS Great airplane movie, especially when I had been awake for way too long.