Joss Whedon Doesn’t Like the Ending to ‘Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back’

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Joss Whedon Does Not Like Empire Strikes Back Ending Joss Whedon Doesnt Like the Ending to Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back

There’s no doubt about it – Joss Whedon (The Avengers) is a fan of Star Wars. All it would take is about ten minutes of watching Firefly to come to that conclusion.

But that doesn’t mean that the writer-director doesn’t have any issues with the franchise. Case in point: Whedon recently revealed that he’s not much of a fan of the ending of The Empire Strikes Back, particularly its unresolved nature. In fact, his exact words were: “It was a terrible idea.”

(Keep in mind – Joss Whedon does NOT think that Empire is a bad movie in the slightest. In fact, the only reason the film was even brought up was because he was citing a sequel that managed to “get it right.”)

Courtesy of EW, here’s the full exchange:

“[Empire Strikes Back] committed the cardinal sin of not actually ending. Which at the time I was appalled by and I still think it was a terrible idea.”

The interviewer was a tad surprised by this, so he asked Whedon if he really thought that Empire had a bad ending.

According to Whedon:

“Well, it’s not an ending. It’s a Come Back Next Week, or in three years. And that upsets me. I go to movies expecting to have a whole experience. If I want a movie that doesn’t end I’ll go to a French movie. That’s a betrayal of trust to me. A movie has to be complete within itself, it can’t just build off the first one or play variations.”

Everybody’s seen The Empire Strikes Back, right? We all know that near the end of the movie, Han Solo is frozen in carbonite and taken by the bounty hunter Boba Fett to be sold to Jabba the Hutt; we all know that Luke Skywalker gets his hand lightsabered off by Darth Vader, who claims to be his father, Anakin Skywalker. It’s such a fixture of pop culture that even people who’ve never seen the film know what happens.

Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader in Empire Strikes Back Joss Whedon Doesnt Like the Ending to Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back

“That’s not true! That’s impossible!”

While Whedon is certainly free to feel however he wants to about Empire, it could be argued that the film IS a complete experience. Many of the character arcs started in the film are concluded, more or less, by the end – they’re just not feel-good conclusions.

No, you don’t know precisely what becomes of Han Solo, but that’s as a result of the mistakes he made in the story. Against Leia’s wishes, he took the crew to Cloud City and he paid the price for doing so; off to Jabba’s Palace he goes!  Likewise, Luke left his training way too early – against Yoda’s wishes – and Vader wiped the floor with him, emotionally, mentally, physically, and otherwise. Maybe if Luke had stuck around for more Force training, he would’ve been more capable of withstanding any paternal revelations.

That’s why there’s a cliffhanger. It’s not just there because the producers are saying “See you next movie, everybody!” It’s also there because of the mistakes these guys made as characters. Their actions had unsatisfying and semi-inconclusive consequences. They lost because they screwed up.

Han Solo in Carbonite in Empire Strikes Back Joss Whedon Doesnt Like the Ending to Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back

Now, there will undoubtedly be people who say, “But Joss, what about individual TV episodes with cliffhangers? You’ve made so many of those!” In fairness, Whedon is differentiating here between a film experience and an episodic experience (never mind that the Star Wars movies have long been considered episodic, and they’re steeped in the stylistics of the movie serials of yore).

However, a better example would be a cliffhanger to the end of a series. Has Joss Whedon ever produced a major cliffhanger for one of his TV shows that left a lot of things unresolved?

Yes. Perhaps one of the more notorious examples of unresolved series finales is Whedon’s Angel, which saw Angel and his crew running headlong into battle against the Senior Partners’ massive army (made up of all manner of monsters, including a dragon). Before we can find out what happens to them, the credits roll.

Is this a good analogy for Empire‘s ending? I would argue that it is, though some might say that it’s more akin to Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, which rather famously didn’t depict the fate of its two protagonists against an army of Bolivian soldiers.

However, I would counter that the difference between these two “endings” is that we absolutely know what happened to Butch and Sundance – they died. Straight up. There’s no doubt about it. They did not hold their own against an entire army because they are not supernatural creatures of the night magically imbued with souls.

Angel TV Cliffhanger Ending Joss Whedon Doesnt Like the Ending to Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back

The series finale of ‘Angel’

As for Angel and his friends, we have no idea what happened to them (unless we’ve read the comic book continuation). Did they win their fight against the Senior Partners? Were lives lost in the process? We’ll never know because it never played out onscreen.

Much like Empire, the ending to Angel left some major life and death questions to be answered, and yet it was still an incredibly satisfying and bittersweet experience for fans. Unlike Empire, we never got answers to those questions, because Angel was canceled by The WB.

What say you, Screen Ranters? Do you agree with Joss that The Empire Strikes Back doesn’t really have an ending? Drop us a line in the comments.

_____

Joss Whedon’s next movie, The Avengers: Age of Ultron hits theaters May 1st, 2015. Star Wars: Episode VII is rumored to be scheduled for a December 2015 release.

Follow me on Twitter @benandrewmoore.

Source: EW

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TAGS: star wars

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  1. Angel is my favourite tv character of all time, firefly is my favourite tv show of all time (and buffy is right up there – once more with feeling is the best tv episode of all time) and I was a joss whedon fan before it was cool to be a joss whedon fan…..but this is wrong. TESB (and whole original trilogy) transcends cinema. It is beyond a movie, its a cultural experience. So critizing the ending of a cultural phenonemum ( as opposed to a movie) doesnt work. As the author refers, people that have never seen the movie or the trilogy still know what happens. Avengers was great, but lets be honest, it was a sure thing. Until Joss turns his OWN indie movie into the cultural reference of a generation ( more than one generation in fact) he shouldnt be critisizing the awesome ending of TESB.

    • Agreed, and it’s a shame that Buffy/Angel/Firefly-Which they ALL deserved the recognition and cultural significance that Star Wars has. Buffy owned the middle-90s and early 2000s, so did Angel, Firefly developed a CULT fanbase that will last until Joss enters the grave (and beyond!)

      Avengers may well go down as an equal to the first SW trilogy in terms of pop-culture relevancy. The characters themselves certainly transcend generations. But as you said Joss didn’t create them.

      Now if Buffy and Angel (and Spike and Faith! let’s NEVER forget them! Two of the best characters and many personal fan-faovrites-the Angel/Buffy S9 with the Angel & Faith comic is AMAZING, seeing Spike and Faith team up on it was fantastic. Angel made that dragon at the end, well not made, but…teamed-up to pwn the hell out of the Wolfram and Hart army…ouch I’m ranting *slaps self)

      Anyway, those characters deserve a come back, the original actors are all still in great shape. Faith and David, especially. James was already long in the tooth when the series got started, let alone now. HOWEVER, with today and tomorrow’s make-up and CGI it wouldn’t be hard at all (as well as James having a naaturally athletic body and being able to get into shape shouldn’t be too hard barring any injury) To make our immortals seem immortal, and our Slayers age gracefully. After all, a 60 year old Slayer is just as dangerous as a 60 year old Spider-Man…The strength/agility levels that you hear Joss compare them to. In the comics it’s real easy to see why, too. The show, had it the True Blood budget and CGI would have had some amazing blurry-fight scenes had it been made now instead of 1997.

  2. Interesting.

    I agree with what Joss Whedon is saying with cliffhanger ending (Maxtrix Reloaded) but I don’t think it applied to ESB.

    ESB ended. The villain didn’t die. That’s fine. The movie still ended. I felt closure. The Matrix Reloaded intentionally didn’t end.

    Not every villain has to die, or be captured at the end.

    • true true.

    • Thematically, Matrix Reloaded reached its conclusion when Neo confronted the Architect. Like with Empire, the plot conflict wasn’t actually resolved by the end of the movie. That’s why both Matrix sequels were released the same year instead of making the audience wait 3 more years for the conclusion.

  3. Whedon is correct in assessment of the non-ending for TESB.

    I remember at the time of the movie’s release this was one of the big knocks against it. Of course, now one can just pop in the ROTJ and continue the story so over time it has become a non-issue.

    • Good call. ROTJ was my intro to SW. So don’t know reviews of TESB at the time. Interesting how TESB is considered the best SW movies nowadays. ANH still my fave.

    • Glad someone articulated this point. I completely agree. When you have to wait 3 years to see a sequel, you want to have a complete experience. That 3 year wait was excruciating.

      I wish the interviewer had asked the appropriate follow-up question: “How would you have ended The Empire Strikes Back?” That would have been insightful.

  4. I keep wanting to say Josh Whedon.

  5. I actually like the ending of any movie with a cliffhagar I find that interesting but I’ll be more than happy to let joss have his opinion on the whole thing :)

  6. I love Joss Whedon and all, but come on.

    If I remember correctly, The Avengers ended with a cliffhanger that was supposed to build up a new character to his sequel, and now we won’t see for several more years…

    Empire Strikes Back may not have the up beat ending like Avengers, but they both ended with cliffhangers. And a movie doesn’t HAVE to end with a feel good tone. I’m sorry Joss, but that statement of yours is pretty hypocritical.

    • Obviously, you don’t remember correctly, because the Avengers ended with a very minor teaser, not a cliffhanger. It didn’t end with Tony being kidnapped and frozen in carbonite. Trying to compare the two is just stupid.

      • Avengers had a very big cliffhanger ending.
        Would everyone survive the unknown threat of the Schwarma?
        I know they didn’t look upbeat after eating that food.

  7. The reason the matrix 2 & 3 shouldn’t haven been made is because the first one had a satisfying ending, even though the world was still an illusion and the vast majority of mankind was 24-volt batteries!! I agree with Whedon that he needs to make decent movie before placing it in a continuity structure! The LotR TFOTR (and I hope the Hobbit) movie is considered to be the least interesting one, just because it builds up to something and then leaves you hanging.. But the TTT is considered the best one and the third just can’t live up to it anymore, same for TDKR, spiderman 3, X-men 3… Whedon can avoid that for two reasons I think, one he isn’t just making (on the long run anyway) a trilogy becuase there are four movies inbetween each installment that also has to deal with the consequences made in each Avengers and secondly by taking the (safer?) route of each movie being on its one, you lose the risk of disappointing his audience in the like of every other movie I mentioned! :)

    Anyway I think I get his point, also not contesting that Empire is one of the most awesome movies ever! :p

  8. The Earth is saved though, I mean threat = neutralised, or in any case the story arc is concluded, a threat from afar is a lot less threatening (space aliens or something) than living in it (hand cut off, Solo = ice cube, “What, his father?”)

  9. Gotta be honest, Josh Weadon is not the end all be all of scifi so his opinions don’t exactly rank very high with me.

  10. I feel that Empire Strikes Back has one of the best endings ever in a movie. The good guys are on the run, trying to recoup their forces for a all out attack, and you actually care about these last survivors. Who knows what awaits them? God, this was a brilliant ending! I don’t always want a happy, everything is resolved neatly in one movie ending. Iron Man 3 has a horrible ending for that reason. Joss I’m a Huge fan of your work, but Empire Strikes Back was just Perfect.

    • Couldn’t have said it better myself….. Putting ROTJ into my DVD player as we speak.

    • Come to think of it, I could totally see if George RR Martin got a giant hard-on while watching “Empire” for the first time and said “Ah-hah! I have my theme for my 20,000 page epic!”

      *Starts typing that night. Looking very similar to Harrison Ford. Emerges 15 years later looking like an (Awesome) Gnome, or Gnome-Santa.

    • +1

    • EXACTLY what is wrong with IM3.

  11. Aaaaaand that’s why Joss Whedon makes crap.

  12. People only enjoy the ending of Empire now because they can pop open the DVD player and see what happens after in Jedi. Joss is right if you were sitting in the cinema watch Empire when first released, you might think WTF at the end, because that’s exactly how I felt!

  13. Maybe he would have liked it better if Luke had defeated Vader and all the stormtroopers would have instanty died without reason.

    • Thumbs up. Where’s the ‘like’ button? Whedon should be worrying about making his own movie better. As much as I liked the Avengers, there where a ton of scenes thrown in to get to where he wanted to be – poor scripting.

      Feels like he is getting a little full of himself to me.

      • I think he probably would’ve preferred it if it didn’t end on a major cliffhanger that took 3 years to resolve. While I love ESB and its ending, I can understand Joss being sore about it when he first saw it in the cinema.

        “As much as I liked the Avengers, there where a ton of scenes thrown in to get to where he wanted to be”
        What does that sentence even mean?

  14. I will respectfully disagree.
    I agree that ‘Empire’ is a complete emotional narrative.

    True, that films must be able to stand alone and I think that is what Whedon may be referring to in the interview. But that is a bit ironic considering most Marvel films in Phase 1 ended with much unresolved until the Avengers. The Avengers had a bit of that as well.

    A good comparison to “The Empire Strikes Back” will be “The Dark Knight”:
    Both films don’t have a true beginning or a true ending in terms plot, but both have a strong thematic and emotional narrative that begins and concludes.

    Star Wars and Return of the Jedi were more plot-based- destroy the Death Star. Empire was heavily about characters and their arcs defining the events more than the events defining the characters.

    The film is great and has grown better over time. The narrative structure is what makes ‘Empire’ one the best films in the series as it makes it less predictable, more character-centric.

    Now Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man’s Chest has a similar narrative that however does feel like a cheap cliffhanger as it wasted most of the screen time introducing concepts but meanders them around and push all development and resolution to the third chapter making the latter more convoluted.

    • I don’t think the Dark Knight really works as a comparison. As open ended as it may have been with some of the themes, the central plot conflict is resolved with the capture of the Joker.

  15. I do not think Empire ended with the feeling of a cliffhanger.
    It was more of the feeling of to be continued and not with
    wondering how the hell do that find a way out of that.

    • Exactly! It was one of the first movies that I can recall (I saw it in the theater when it was released) that felt like it would have more story to tell – “to be continued”. Now we have “franchises” and everyone expects a sequel or two. That kind of thing didn’t happen then. Sure, the end of a Bond film always said something like “James Bond will return in…”, but this continuation kinda thing was a whole new experience.

  16. Erm, hold on a minute…. The Empire Strikes Back….. What else did this guy expect with a title like that?? Should have named it ‘The Empire Strikes Back and Then Everything Was good Again and Everyone Got Medals Like the First One Jedi’, what a stupid thing to say, I remember every cinema here in the uk was full for months because of ROTJ, and that was due to the quality of the movie and the set up….. Just goes to show the Avengers was a fluke, the next one will be a disappointment

    • Because when I hear a title like ‘The Empire Strikes Back’, my immediate thought is that it’ll end on a cliffhanger which’ll take 3 years to resolve.
      Obviously.

      Also, how does him disliking the ending of a film (that he loves anyway) prove that the Avengers was a fluke? I’d like to hear the logic behind that one.

      • And clearly when watching in the cinema this guy knew the next movie was three years away?? That’s exactly what I thought lol. And my reasoning is pretty good on the fluke thing – has he done anything else worth a piss? IMO, no. And that’s my opinion, it not everyone’s.

        • Wait, what? When Whedon first saw ESB, he probably had no idea when ROTJ was coming out, which probably would’ve made it all the more frustrating.

          And has he does anything worth a piss? Well, aside from the Avengers, there’s Buffy, Angel, Firefly and Cabin in the Woods, all of which has some serious followings which, no matter what you think of them, are obviously ‘worth a piss’. And while you may say that it’s your opinion, it used to be people’s opinion that the world was flat. You can’t really claim ‘difference of opinion’ when people have facts to prove your wrong.

          • More frustrating?? I don’t think so.

            The world is flat? Haha, what are you going on about? Are you comparing the ability of this guy with scientific breakthroughs of the modern era?

            The fact you say you have proof my opinion is wrong, erm… No you don’t… To me my opinion is absolutely correct and you list those movies and series, all of which I’ve seen and most of which I hated, you’ve only reinforced my opinions in my head. The earth is round, Joss ain’t going to change that.

            • By the way, the 3 year gap thing was sarcasm, pretty sure that passed you by

            • “The world is flat? Haha, what are you going on about? Are you comparing the ability of this guy with scientific breakthroughs of the modern era?”

              I’m sorry, do you not know how to read or something? I was using ‘the world is flat’ example as a point that opinions can be wrong. I don’t know how you somehow got ‘Whedon’s abilities are a good as the guy who worked out the earth was round’ from that.

              “and you list those movies and series, all of which I’ve seen and most of which I hated”

              So, having watched Buffy and hated it, you immediately decided to watch the spinoff show, Angel? Forgive me if I find that a little hard to believe.

              • You are forgiven, ever had a girlfriend?

                Also, the world being flat is not an opinion, I can read and I’m very good at it thank you.

                • “You are forgiven, ever had a girlfriend?”

                  Why? You want dating advice?

                • Why? You want dating advice?

                • “You are forgiven, ever had a girlfriend?”

                  Well, I’m flattered that you’re interested in me, but I’m afraid I already have a girlfriend and I don’t swing that way either.

                  Besides, relationships formed over the internet never work out.

                  • Very true, not had any of those, cant rule it out tho. As you know (having a girlfriend) watching their crap is important no matter how dreadful it was, my lady at the time liked both Angel and Buffy, truly awful. Plastic masks and badly choreographed fight scenes, it was laughable.

                    • And dating advice is the one advice I don’t need, I do very well thank you :)

              • Actually it’s just myth that people thought the world was flat, a lot of scientists at the time actually agreed that the world was round and Christopher Columbus was actually setting out to find the East Indies.

                • It’s not a myth; it just did not exist, at the time, in the world-spanning numbers people currently with a superficial knowledge of history believe it did. There WERE still people clinging to that falsehood even at the time of the Age of Exploration…but not nearly as many.

                  • I think you will find that the pure definition of the word myth – any invented story, idea, or concept – makes that a perfect way to describe the whole ‘world is flat’ fiasco.

                    • Ah, but you see: THAT is precisely why the word MYTH does NOT apply in this case. I was not talking about whether the world is flat or not. I also was not talking about what it SHOULD be considered, conceptually or otherwise. JamesF said that it is a myth that people thought the world is flat. It is NOT a myth; it is a FACT. Even at that late date, there were still a few people (granted, a relatively negligible number, but still a number) who believed the world to be flat. There are, even in this day and age, people (thankfully, few and far between) who believe the world is flat and/or only 6,000 years old.

                      Yikes.

                      …but still a FACT.

                  • Sure people at the time believed it in much the same way some people today still believe in Geo-centrism but the majority knew the world was world.

                    • I agree…I simply stated that it was not a myth that people believed such nonsense, even by that point.

                    • Wow, that got deep haha

  17. I think Joss Wheldon F’d up the Avenger’s IMHO and I don’t care for his opinion about The Empire Strikes Back! It ended and everything was resolved in the next installment. I don’t know why everyone is on Joss’s “jock”.

  18. Agreed! i did like the avengers though But alot of the story was taken from the Ultimate Avengers. They just added Loki and took out wasp and antman

  19. maybe he’s just saying that so disney will give him a shot at episode 8! haha. i don’t agree with him, but i think he should direct star wars film

  20. Oh God, someone tell him to take a hike!

  21. A poor script writer saying he didn’t like something about the script of another poor script writer.

    • SMH.

  22. Joss Whedon is a hack. The Avengers is the worst movie I have ever seen in my life. His shows are boring garbage. He is a terrible writer and for him to criticize a movie that will be remembered as one of the greatest sci fi movies ever made shows what a pretentious hack he really is. Nothing, other than Buffy and maybe Angel, has ever worked out for him. For all the fans of Firefly, the movie Serenity still tanked.

    Avengers was nothing more than Buffy with Marvel characters. I still can’t believe one man was the catalyst for them to want to save the world. People who were heroes and never needed a real to fight, fought because that wooden spoon Culson died? No. I gave up on Marvel films as soonn as I heard he was making the Avengers and unless he tries to make another one of his own movies and leaves Marvel’s alone, I’ll never get to see my favorite characters written how they should be, not as Buffy characters.

    • I have to agree, in second watch The Avengers was pretty poor. Buffy I hated and never watched Angel, so I’m not a big fan of what little I’ve seen of this guy.

    • If the Avengers is the worst film you’ve ever seen in your life, you really need to watch more films.

      Also, while I admit I’ve only watched the first two seasons of Buffy so far, I’m not entirely certain why you think the Avengers was just Buffy with Marvel characters.

  23. Let’s see how he chooses to end his epic sequel that is assuredly going to be followed by a third.

  24. I’m sure Back to the Future would get the same treatment, yet another timeless classic trilogy. I just wonder if people will be talking about the Avengers in 25 – 30 years time, I doubt it very much.

    • Really? I don’t. The Avengers was not only the third highest grossing film of all time, but it was also proof that a shared movie universe could work. Honestly, if there are any superhero films that I think are going to be remembered for years to come, it’ll be the Avengers and the Dark Knight Trilogy.

      • Avatar and Titanic in front of Avengers just goes to show a movie does not have to be good to make money, Iron Man 3 is 5th haha. Batman Trilogy is quality but do you really think they will be referred to in the same manor as Star Wars though, or BTTF or perhaps Indiana Jones? I’m not so sure, referred to ‘now and again’ perhaps but not seen in the same quarters. But that’s my opinion, and that opinion (as much as I enjoyed the first viewing of Avengers) Avengers is far from a classic.

        • Also, sorry to go on about the same point :) – but check the top 30 highest grossing movies of all time and tell me how many of those movies don’t suck big time, it’s less than you would think!! Phantom Menace in at 13, transformers 3 at 6 and Pirates 3 in at 10!! I thank you for pointing out this list as I’ve never taken the time to look at it before, there are some real shockers on there, I suppose the US makes up a lot of the box office Gross

  25. The more and more I learn about Whedon… The less I like him

    • Why? Because he doesn’t like the ending to a movie?

  26. I am so glad to hear that Joss Whedon has the same opinion as I do on stories ending with a cliffhanger, I hate stories that can’t wrap themselves up at the end as it feels like keeping the plot hostage.

    Don’t get me wrong I’m ok with having a B Story that you can possible use for the future but I hate it when they take a major plot and refuse to resolve it for the sake of having a cliffhanger. I don’t need all the plots to be resolved but it’d be great for movie creators to not leave plots unresolved just so they can get me to watch another movie.

    • The Empire Strikes Back to me cannot considered a cliffhanger, as mentioned by others it DID have an ending although not a happy one.
      Also I was meant as the second part of a trilogy so of course there
      are going to be parts that carry over to Return of the Jedi.

      • At the end Han Solo’s kidnapped and the bad guys haven’t been blown up yet so actually I’d call it a cliff-hanger. I think Lucas Arts have balls to give the film a sad ending giving the nature of Star Wars but I think I agree with Joss Whedon that it had a kind of “Next time” feel to it,

        Especially when you consider how much time there was between Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.

  27. Sorry I meant IT was meant as the second part

  28. All I know is, The Empire Strikes Back had a hell of a better ending and more satisfying conclusion than the f***ing Avengers.

    F**k You Joss Whedon.

    And to all you fanboys who are openly agreeing with him, please please submit your scripts and screenplays for your better versions of ‘The Empire Strikes Back’ here, cause I would like to read them.

    • And your not just as bad for getting upset because someone doesn’t like a film you like? I like Star Wars but it’s not perfect. Also I wasn’t aware that the criteria for hating something was producing something better, I mean I thought I could just not like it but I suppose we can’t.

  29. F*ck you Joss Whedon! Who the hell are you to criticize a franchise that has been hailed for decades when you are creating crappy, overrated, and cheesy films like the Avengers. First, you disappoint me with this work of mediocrity you did last year, then you cut away Ant-Man as the creator of Ultron, and now you are saying Empire has a horrible ending?! The ending of Empire was one of the finest I have seen since you add a bit of suspense, unity, and anticipation to the trilogy all together which guarantees a hefty amount of dinero into your pockets when the sequel is released which is one of the main reasons why Return did great commercially. Bah. Humbug!

    • Actually JamesF that is a reasonable thing. If you hate an ending to a movie then it implies you have a better idea in mind. Just saying you don’t like it just because is no answer, what would you have done to make it better and “worthy” of your appreciation? Perhaps Luke should have defeated Darth Vader in this middle chapter? Perhaps the whole Empire should have been destroyed and then Return of the Jedi could have been just a huge celebration. Please tell us how you would make the Empire Strikes Back perfect.

      • You say worthy like I’m entitled, I’m just saying I didn’t like it but since you asked I would have still had Han being kidnapped but I wouldn’t have built it around the idea of being a come back for return of the jedi. Also I’d show more of cloud city and allow Boba Fett to do something actually intimidating (such as actually capturing Han Solo)

        Also why is it I have to present an idea of how I’d make Star Wars better yet none of you have to present an idea as to how you’d make The Avengers better? Seems a little hypocritical.

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