Heath McKnight: Obsessive Iron Man fan
Before I start my little op-ed about Iron Man and The Dark Knight, I want you all to know that Iron Man is indeed my favorite character. I had him tattooed on my right forearm almost five years ago, and Entertainment Weekly even featured me as their “Obsessive Fan of the Week” last year! I write for Advanced Iron (the #1 Iron Man fan site on the planet), and my love for the character stretches back over 20 years.
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That said, Batman is my second favorite character (tied with Captain America), and Batman Begins was, for the longest time not only my favorite comic book movie, but one of my top 20 favorite films of all time. The Dark Knight somehow topped Batman Begins, and completely blew me away. It deserves all the money and (hopefully) awards it has (or will) earn.
Okay, now that that’s out of the way, I want to spend a little time talking about why, ultimately, I love Iron Man more than The Dark Knight. Understand that while I think TDK is a magnificent movie, and the musical score is infinitely better than the pedestrian soundtrack of Iron Man – ol’ Shell Head’s film wins the race (but only by a little bit).
So why do I love Iron Man more? I recently sat down, and thought about the best movies I’ve seen this past summer, and I was hard-pressed in deciding whether Iron Man or TDK was better – or if they were a tie for me. Due to a busy work schedule this summer, I could only see each movie once, but you know I’ll wear the DVDs out when they’re released. I could also watch only a handful of films, but I hear that Indiana Jones 4 stunk anyway.
So after thinking about both, even going so far as comparing stories (both are aces) and direction (two veteran indie filmmakers doing their best work).
- Acting: Tie – you can’t get better than Robert Downey, Jr. and Heath Ledger.
- Visual FX: Iron Man.
- Music: The Dark Knight.
- Villains: Sorry, Iron Monger, but Heath’s Joker scared the crap out of me, and he deserves an Oscar.
- Cinematography: Matthew Libatique (Iron Man) and Wally Pfister (The Dark Knight) are both tops in their field, but I give the slight edge to Libatique.
- Overall fun factor for me: Iron Man wins by the narrowest of margins.
After all that, I came to the conclusion that Iron Man was the best film.
What ultimately got me to that conclusion was my good friend, comic book creator Rich Koslowski. He is the creator of The 3 Geeks, and he recently commented on his blog:
“I did love it [The Dark Knight, but] I still liked Iron Man better. And the one main reason I think is that Iron Man was more well-rounded. Iron Man had the one thing the The Dark Knight did not… joy.”
That’s exactly what I was mulling over: joy. Don’t get Rich or I wrong, we both love the dark aspects of Batman (don’t EVER lose that and don’t EVER hire Joel Shumacher EVER again!), but we went for the “light” with Iron Man.
So there you have it. Even though I am a big-time Iron Maniac, had the movie stunk, or had it been just decent-to-good, TDK would’ve won, hands down. Trust me, I love Iron Man the character, but I don’t love being let down. I learned that years ago, when I’d get excited for upcoming movies, much like sports fans would get pumped up for the big game, only to be disappointed when the film opened (Jurassic Park being the exception). And believe me, I was obsessing about both of these films.
For me, ultimately, I just loved watching Iron Man fly around, dispatching bad guys. But don’t forget that I absolutely loved The Dark Knight. It and Iron Man are the top two best comic book movies I’ve ever seen and I can’t wait to watch both films at least two dozen times on DVD before the year ends.
And one more thing: I think it’s great that TDK made over $520 million, and Iron Man, a minor, not-as-well-known Marvel superhero made more money than Indy 4. No one expected Iron Man to do as well as it did, but it certainly did.
I can’t wait for the next Iron Man and Batman films.
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201 Comments
Wow, now I’m just confused all over again. So Amol IS serious? I was almost certain he was joking for a moment there…
Heath, thanks for the post. You don’t need to be so apologist about it tho lol.
First off, let me say that I’m a bigger Batman fan than I am an Iron Man fan. Batman is my favorite comics character and has been since I was 12. Iron Man probably falls at about third place on my list of all time faves, with Superman holding second, Captain America sharing the same place as IM, and the Flash (Barry Allen) and Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) coming in at a little above fourth. Altho I like both Marvel and DC Comics, you could probably categorize me as more of a “DC guy” than a Marvel guy considering I have more favorite characters at DC than I do Marvel.
That said, Iron Man, to me was the better movie, I liked it better than TDK, to say the least. Here’s why:
The Dark Knight is by far the best Batman movie so far. But, in a nutshell, it was something we’d seen before, and that is the old “Batman VS Joker” song. Yeah, it was better than the rest but it’s still the same old, we’ve seen Batman plenty o’ times before. Iron Man, on the other hand, we had NEVER seen before, so I give IM props for that. In his first outing, Iron Man got more right than all the Batman films got right put together. The Dark Knight was close to the comics in story and character, that’s about it. Iron Man, for the most part, was close to the comics in EVERYTHING – the story, the character and characters, costume(s), the technology, the “gee whiz” factor that the character always had, it’s all there. Same can’t really be said for any of the Batman films thus far. TDK didn’t even have the frickin’ batcave much less a bat-suit close to the current Batman comics suit (like the IM suit is close to the current comics’ IM suit) or batmobile (Joker’s skin isn’t even white!), Bruce Wayne is more of a detective this time ’round, thankfully, but it’s still not quite on par with the comics Batman (and don’t even get me started on Bale’s Batman voice lol), I guess in favor of the so called “real world” take they thought it was better to “dumb him down”. But how is it that Batman jumps out a 15 story building to save Rachel (I’m glad she’s dead, BTW), and lands on top of a car with nothing but his little plastic suit to break his fall and he’s OK? ….hmmm….for something that’s supposed to be so grounded in “realism”, it certainly had a lack thereof in a few scenes. But, alas, in ANY of these movies, there is no such thing as “realism”, only the illusion of realism, which, IMO, Iron Man pulled off quite well. Sure, the fight scene at the end of IM left something to be desired, but at least you could see it (you could see all the fights for that matter), which is more than you could say for some of TDK’s fight scenes (which, while not THAT great, were a major improvement over ‘Begins’ fight scenes). Only thing TDK had on IM was Heath Ledger and possibly the score, which, IMO, doesn’t hold a candle to the original score by Danny Elfman back in the 1989 Batman movie. TDK was great, as I said, it’s the best Batman film yet, but I liked Iron Man better. And as far as special FX go, Iron man wins hands down. Everything, IMO, looked REAL in Iron Man. Some of the scenes with Two face in TDK looked too CGI-ish at times. As for the “joy” part, well, TDK got everything right as far as story area is concerened, sure, it’s a little bleaker because it’s the “Empire Strikes back” of the series, but it’s vintage Batman, it’s what Batman is in terms of character/story, just like Iron Man was vintage IM in terms of character/story, but it was more than just that, see, unlike TDK, it was vintage Iron Man EVERYWHERE.
For the people saying “TDK was better cuz it made a bajillion $$$”, consider:
Nolan took an iconic, well known character who already had multiple films and tv shows, and made a great movie about him with a young, well known actor who DIED during the film’s production. Of course people will go see it. Iron Man, not so much. Favreua took what many people considered to be a “B” list, secondtier, and much lesser well known character, and made a stellar film which was closer to the comics than any Batman film, and which, sans TDK of course, made more $$$ than any Batman film had ever made. So, from that standpoint, Iron Man is the bigger success, IMO.
As of right now, the list of best comic book films of all time for me goes like this:
1. Iron Man
2. Spider-Man 1 & 2
3. The Dark Knight
4. Tim Burton’s 1989 Batman & Batman Begins
5. Richard Donner’s 1978 Superman: The Movie
6. Incredible Hulk
I’m hoping that the list will change/I’ll one day add to the list so it will include the future films such as the Superman Reboot, Green Lantern, the Flash, JLA, Captain America, the Avengers, Iron Man 2, and even a Fantastic Four reboot (a F4 film if done right, could still be great).
did anyone pick up on amols list. It had all 3 matrix and all 3 terminators in it granted the 1st 2 where awsome but none of the original star wars was there and all 3 of the rings was in it come on the second one was a filler.
LMAO!!!
Terminator 3 was atrocious, Matrix 2 and 3 were horrible as well…
Maybe he liked Aliens 3 and 4 as well??
@ Robert
Dent’s Sense of altruism:
“Either you die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a Villain”
This statement sums it up for him. Here he is point towards the way the people who are on the receiving end of your altruism are going to treat you EVENTUALLY.
But I think at the beginning, his sense of Fearless altruism is genuine and cannot be questioned. After all, he portrays himself as The Batman and becomes a target of ire for the angry public as well as becomes a sitting duck for The Joker. But then his true love is for His Gotham City as a White Knight of the City.
BUT…1. Then he is satisfying his inner sense of love for a city where he grew up and for the city that that gives him self –assuredness to his inner feeling of security, which is still a trait of self-centeredness.
2. and then… at the end he understands, there is no sense in being decent in an indecent world. No sense in playing by the rules. No sense in bending the rules and not breaking them. NO SENSE IN OFFERING ALTRUISM TO A CRUEL WORLD.
@Amol
Your item #2. Wrong. Completely.
Vic
@ Ken, @ De ron assis
This is an OPINION SITE and a Batman v. Iron Man site. What I provided to this site were some honest opinions of mine without attacking anyone UNTIL … you came along and ATTACKED ‘ME’ INSTEAD OF MY HONEST ‘OPINION’ WITHOUT EVER PROVIDING A CLEAR/CLEVER COUNTER-POINT TO IT. That to me is nothing more than sign of Insecure Headbangers.
MY QUESTION: Why Did you take my personal honest opinions of TDK so PERSONALLY when NOBODY else did? Did it hurt you that I answered your doubts efficiently ? May be that’s why.
…AND I dont’t need to justify myself over my choice of SCI-FI movies to those who I can see are not critics at all.
Should I post to you both a photocopy of my certificate which proclaims me a POST-GRADUATE in the Field of ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE and an experience certificate to prove that I work for a reputed Software company?
[Physics First Rule: You can never explain/convince to a TWO dimensional TRIANGLE drawn on a paper that there can exist in this real world a thing like a THREE-dimensional PYRAMID.]
Similarly…But I don’t think you would grasp a thing from those two papers or …the ‘Matrix’ Series.
Those certificates will point out in a way that I AM IN A BETTER POSITION TO JUDGE SCI-FI MOVIES, MORE THAN HALF OF WHICH ARE JUST PURE FANTASIES.
BUT STILL…
ONE…
Before blurting out some worthless words, it’s a good habit just to double check yourselves. I have NOT mentioned Terminator 3 in my list.
TWO…
You won’t understand even if I explained Matrix-2 and Matrix-3 especially without understanding Matrix-1.
And appreciating and applauding Part 1 (Matrix-1) of any idea and then proclaiming the very next continuation parts (Mat-2, Mat-3)of that very SAME idea as ‘garbage’ just because you could not grasp it, smell of only one thing to me: ‘HYPOCRISY’
THREE… STAR-WARS anyone can make – a WHOLE SERIES of it. Because it is a pure fantasy where the director has run with his imagination in any direction with it. It has no genuine scientific source material to compare/refer it to.
But it requires GUMPTION create a Real, Practical, Honest, NON-EXAGGERATED Sci-Fi masterpiece like ‘Artificial Intelligence(2001)’. Because it has a TRUE scientific reference material for it to refer to.Spielberg/Kubrick are both great.
One aspect wrong in AI could have meant the whole movie going wrong UNLIKE STAR WARS. Thankfully, Spielberg carried the movie through.
Any way, AI is not a movie for commoners like the STAR WARS series is which just a pop-corn entertainment for the mass public.
As for that crap Alien Series, LOL,LOL, I am with you in that. They are just that… ‘CRAP’. LOVE YOU BOTH. STAY IN CONTACT.
@ vic
(”Your item #2. Wrong. Completely.”)
Scene: (Dent is holding Gordon’s son as hostage in the climax)
Batman: You don’t want to hurt the boy, Dent.
Dent: It’s about what’s Fair.
(To Batman and Gordon.)
You thought we could be decent men in an indecent world.You thought we could lead my example. You thought the rules could be bent but not broken…you were WRONG. The world is cruel.
(shows his coin)
And the ONLY MORALITY in the cruel world is chance.
Unbiased. Unprejudiced. Fair.
(CHECK THE SCRIPT)
@Amol
Sorry for any confusion, I was referring to your seeming assertion that it’s true here in the real world.
Vic
@ Vic
(” Let’s talk about altruism and how it affects these two particular super hero flicks.”)- Robert
I thought we started discussing altruism practiced by characters in IM and TDK movies after this statetment by Robert.
Anyway, I told you my opinion on altruism in the real world before.
(Altruism for a man on the top of the food chain… and all).
Nobody is altruistic. Other wise this world won’t progress/develop.
A miniature example of the world: If a Company does not hire the best candidate for itself, will it progress?
Here ‘Best’ means:The guy who will work for MINimum wages, will work for MAXimum hours and provides a MAXimum output.
See the selfishness, non-altruism ? See the concept of survival of the Fittest.
If the Best guy is not hired, then that company will become incompetitive same day and will be gobbled by a bigger better company.
See the selfishness, non-altruism ? See the concept of survival of the Fittest ?
It is the way of Nature and it SHOULD be.
Even when a drop of a liquid (Physics again) is dropped from a height, it is non-altruistic or is selfish enough to acquire a shape of a sphere while falling, so as to occupy Space and expose its Surface Area both as MINIMUM as possible.
THAT is selfishness.
@Vic, @Robert
The Joker’s Sense of Altruism:
“If you are good at something never do it for free.”
This line by The Joker sums up altruism for The Joker. Should we even discuss it further?
Robert, you are correct. Altruism is scarce.
OK. All the Theories The Joker tells his Victims regarding the sense of Altruism(???) that he received from his father and his wife received from the gambling Sharks are enough to prove The Joker is NOT altruistic.
Scene 2: (Interrogation Cell)
The Joker To Batman:
(LAUGHS)
You let Five People die. Then you let Dent Take your place. Even to a Guy like me that’s …COLD –
There’s no going back. You have changed things forever.
HERE: Of course, the cunning intelligent Psychopath that The Joker is, he is trying to manipulate and break the psyche of Batman down into making him believe that the latter is a Killer (which is his first principle – he will NEVER Kill.) and making further attempt to convince him that the impact was indelible on those involved.
(Just Similar to the intelligent Psychopath Hannibal Lecter who was manipulating Clarice Starling in “The Silence of the Lambs(1991)” when he was diagnosing her about the screams of lambs that she heard in her dreams.)
Yep, The Joker was not being altruistic towards those Five people but was trying to make The Batman … self-destruct.
Because, The Joker then believes about the same people(public in general) that their morals and code hold no water. And they would drop their morals at the first hint of trouble.
And he believes: “When the chips are down, these civilized people…they will eat each other.”
(I really love this dialogue.)
@Amol, just curious, (since your a Robot Scientist) your not working on a Cybernetic system called Cyberdine or Skynet are you ?
Amol, do you feel like you’re the only person to have ever went to a university and earned a degree? And do you think that just because of that fact it somehow makes your opinions more valid and more factual than those of other people? You sound like you have a serious chip on your shoulder. I think maybe if you spend some more time with real people and less time in front of your computer writing code that maybe you can speak to others without seeming like you’re trying real hard to prove your superiority and perhaps not get on the defensive as easily…
Would be good for the health and the social life.
BTW, I’m an agnostic. I choose not to be an atheist because you simply cannot prove a negative. Even if you can prove evolution (which I believe in), you can’t prove that there wasn’t a god involved in the process in order to make it appear as if it was natural. I’m not saying that I believe this, but like I said, you cannot prove a negative.
I think it is just as foolish to believe in not believing…
@Ken
When I said I am an Atheist,
I said THAT, in the context of which the term ‘God’ is used today anyway. To prove that:
1. My God is superior than your God.
2. We kill each other just because we belong to different religions of God.
3. Even by any chance, let’s say only one religion survives on Earth, Those guys will still struggle amongst themselves in the name of Sub-castes.
That’s the Psychology of any species. To Justify itself and survive with a feel-good effect.
And in my practical Life, I don’t think God whoever he is, provided me all those comfortable things. It’s my Parents, family, Friends, GF and Science who gave me all that.
And’s its a matter of preference maybe, what normally people call ‘God’.
You right when you say,”it is just as foolish to believe in not believing”
I BELIEVE nature was created from what Science calls: ‘Energy’. (Just basic Science for you. I won’t be going into its Alphas and Gammas)
But what I feel amazing about is that While Science is working hard in different fields to find various answers for various wonders, especially “Origin of Universe”,
It’s the other two type of IDLE people that have not ceased to amaze me:
ONE: Believers who say: “Hey! Look! Science is such an incompetent Entity! IT don’t even know who created the Universe and can’t even prove it! How funny! It is the GOD who created it. Simple(?)”
See the Shortcut? All this is said while not even moving a bit from their place or not even putting an effort to understand the basic process but just carrying that ignorance with them the whole life till the end of their life into their Caskets.
TWO: The Ones who Opt for the safe way, The ones who don’t take risks in life and thus reach nowhere: the Agnostics who say:
“Hey! Look! Science is such an incompetent Entity! IT don’t even know who created the Universe and can’t even prove it! How funny! AND they can’t even prove God does not exists! HA HA HA.”
Meanwhile in between that,we, science guys are working our *** out here in search of excellence.
Psychologists say: To reach somewhere in life you have to have faith somewhere, if not in god then in something else and take risks in life.
Believers have faith in Gods.
That subconscious faith makes them Successful.
Atheists like me have faith in or get inspired by real humans (I look up to My Parents, Einstein, Schwarzenneger and Denzel Washington)or aspects created by humans(Maybe Batman for me, You have Iron Man.).
But Most (if not all) Agnostics are SKEPTICAL and reach nowhere in life due to lack of inspiration OR not taking enough risk.
The very word ‘Agnostic’ for me means: neither this side of the fence, nor on that side. Just pure critical, just poking fun and laughing at others.
(”Do you feel like you’re the only person to have ever went to a university and earned a degree?”)
I am humble enough NOT to think so. I work in a brilliant group of programmers here and we have immense respect for each other.And the World is too Vast.
Yes,…But May be I was comparing myself to you when it comes to sci-fi movies.
(”And do you think that just because of that Degree it somehow makes your opinions more valid and more factual than those of other people?”)
I disclosed that particular degree of mine just to make you aware I don’t follow SCI-FI movies blindly and didd that only on TWO occasions: 1. In one of my SERIOUS LONG posts when I explained what Iron Man (pretending as a SCI-FI movie) actually is. 2 when you omniscient(?) ones asked my preference for some particular SCI-FI movies (Had it been not Iron-Man who implies some Special effects, I would not have even mentioned that.)
(I am thinking on the lines of telling my colleagues of this site. A Nice place to let free your damn blocked aggressiveness.)
(”I think maybe if you spend some more time with real people and less time in front of your computer writing code.”)
I spend just about enough time with my Family, Friends and GF if not more.
But for the second part, YOU ARE RIGHT (finally)!
Maybe I should start taking little breaks everytime from in front of my computer while writing code. But they pay me real good for it.
(”you’re trying real hard to prove your superiority and perhaps not get on the defensive as easily…”)
Yup, My Boss says so to. I will replace him someday.
Atleast I try to bring forth my PERSONAL opinions of the REAL ISSUES CONCERNED HERE (IM v.TDK)and not try to enforce them on others. (Some insecure people think I do but its just an illusion.)
But (As I told before) The EASIEST job in the world is: to criticise others.
That’s what some (Agnostic) people do.
AND WITHOUT PROVIDING A SINGLE VALID POINT OR A COUNTER-POINT to the actual topic concerned. Here it is Iron-Man v. TDK.
By the way, in case you don’t know: We were discussing “Altruism in Real Life – Existing or Not”. Any Views ?
Anyway, Off to Office right now. See you in the evening(JUST MAY BE, NOT SURE). Don’t forget Altruism.
Ok, you really have to learn to cut to the chase. Or be more entertaining. I don’t mind reading as long as it keeps me engaged, and I got bored of reading what you wrote about 2 paragraphs in… Cliff notes please so I know, in summary, what you just said.
@Ken, @Heath
While I was relaxing a bit just now, it suddenly struck like lightening to me.
In my obsessive fervor, to proclaim my justification for a particular passion (here TDK),
I took it in a wrong perspective.
It is not actually about some clash between somebody’s passion and mine.
It is not about a some intellectual debate.
It is actually about a CELEBRATION OF SOMEBODY’S LOVE FOR HIS PASSION
HEATH’S LOVE FOR IRON MAN.
And he has the whole right to celebrate it that way.
And he has to justify to nobody.
It was more about Heath and less about IM vs. TDK.
Heath, Ken, Friends, NO HARD FEELINGS. I was WRONG in my way to bulldoze like that.
Let’s just be good friends.
Love you Heath, Love you Ken.
@Amol
In regards to your last post: Hallelujah! You finally got it!
However in regards to this:
“Nobody is altruistic.”
Bull.
It may be more rare than not, but there ARE certainly altruistic people. People who self-sacrifice for others expecting nothing in return.
As to your analysis of Agnostics, I disagree. That’s not a “life view,” it’s only a view about the existance (or not) of God.
I still think it’s ridiculous to be an atheist – how can you know for sure, beyond the shadow of a doubt that there is no God? Do you know everything there is to be known in the universe? Has mankind unraveled every mystery of the universe? Are there no more unknowns to be discovered/explored? If so, how the heck can you KNOW there is no God?
Someone saying they know for a fact is a ridiculous conceit and displays and incredible amount of hubris IMHO.
You can choose to believe that there’s little difference between yourself and a monkey or a pig, but I do not.
It’s incredible to me that anyone who can sit in front of the technology we’ve created, typing on a keyboard, staring at a 1″ thick LCD screen, connected to the internet via fiber optic cables, debating something on an intellectual and philosophical level can not see how very different we are from other species.
I mean, seriously. Why aren’t we just scrabbling in the dirt for our next meal, still living in caves if we’re “just mammals?”
I know you’ll reply with another 500 word response and remain unconvinced, but I just had to express my opinion on this.
Vic
Hey Amol, that’s the point I’ve been trying to make this whole time, since he’s only proclaiming his opinion, his reasons for feeling that way only need to make sense to him and nobody else.
@ Vic
Well, I’m agnostic. Which means I don’t specifically believe in god or any religion, but at the same time, I don’t specifically believe against any of them either. I feel that religion is something based on faith and is something you can never really “prove.” So I feel I won’t know the absolute truth until I die. So why bother guessing what might be true until then? I fully believe in science, physics, nature, evolution, etc. etc. but like I’ve said and like you said in your last post, you cannot PROVE a negative. No matter how much science you prove, you cannot say with absolute certainty that it proves there is no god. God could be pulling the strings of science and physics for all we know. I don’t know and I don’t really care to guess.
For some people, religion is really important to them in shaping their lives and setting their moral values. For me whether there is a god or not makes little difference in the way I will conduct my life. I live by the “golden rule” of do not do unto others what I would not like done to me. I feel this is a honorable way to live no matter what religion you are. I don’t need there to be a god to “inspire” me to be a good person, I will aspire for that regardless.
But what I notice is that few people live in such a manner. I see so many people doing some awfully inconsiderate things all the time. It’s like they think they are the only person in the world and that their needs are more important than anyone else’s… Pretty annoying…
@ amol
the reason people may have come across like they were insulting you is because you’re so intelligent the your opinion is final. have you ever heard of an opinion on an opinion, i was in disbelief that you such a clever person could like a film like matrix 2 and 3 plus it doesn’t need explaining, the problem with the film is it was over done, they tried to be too complicated and it was weak in my opinion is that ok with you?? and by you proclaiming your degrees is your insecurity you have no idea what anyones education, stature or job is on this site.
and your messages are far too long keep it short, i have other things to do than read your essays.
Amol,
why are you an Athiest???
please email me at ymosko@gmail.com
cheers,
Y.M.
lol bats > shellhead lol!!1!
Rev
Whats wrong with being an Atheist No name face? I’m an atheist as well.It’s our beliefs.
@Vic, @Ken
I am not a proficient writer. I can speak only in examples that life has shown to me.
When I said “Nobody is Altruistic”, I meant this:
Let’s say there are only four guys left in the world. And ONE LAST morsel of food on earth.
All are hungry.
All happen to see the morsel at the same time somewhere.
Now two of those guys immediately pounce on the morsel and start fighting for it.
One of the remaining two guys (the third guy) just thinks its wise not to be so selfish enough as to fight with somebody to acquire something even if it’s the last morsel of food.
The Last guy thinks: Hey! What is this going on? I don’t like these two selfish guys are fighting on. And that poor guy is just standing there not demanding his share. Let me give him a portion of this other morsel in my pocket that I saved for this day to this poor guy.
HERE: The fighting guys are selfish because they think that if they eat that tiny morsel they will be SATISFIED IN THEIR MIND and Body for that particular temporary moment. (which MAY latter become a mini pride-Booster that THEY were the ONLY ones to get their hands on the morsel. Exactly the type of winners that Nature NEEDS in this World of the Fittest and World of Survival)
The third guy is selfish in a way that he FEELS SATISFACTION IN HIS MIND that he was at least not cheap like the fighting two. (which MAY become a mini pride-Booster latter)
The fourth guy is selfish in a way because he FEELS SATISFACTION IN HIS MIND by feeding the unselfish poor third guy who was being trampled by the other dominating two. He developed a feeling of pity for the third. He felt GOOD IN HIS MIND that he followed the non-violent way and did a favor for the third guy (which MAY latter become a mini pride-Booster that he was not cheap like the fighting two and played God for the third guy)
Each guy had the main aim of SELF-SATISFACTION / CONSOLATION of their own minds that was fulfilled in different ways for each.
NOW imagine that: 1. the first two fighting guys are from some under developed tribe from a desert area where food is scarce. 2. The second inert guy is a rich businessman who does not have to struggle much to fulfill basic necessities. 3. Fourth guy is from some human rights organization. The story will work. And the picture becomes clearer.
You can see that their Mind has EVOLVED to behave that way.
Don’t we vote for a particular good candidate on a reality show on the TV just because he behaved good ? That is a sort of Self-Satisfaction for us and MAY BE a latter a mini pride-booster for us that we played God for somebody.
Ask yourself: Of the Two guys, where One who does a favor (a good Deed) for the other, who would you rather be ? Of course you would want to be the First Guy regardless of the Second guy being the one who has an CLEAR advantage because he is at the receiving end of the good deed. That is the sort of good-deed (Altruism) which is a sort of Self-satisfactory/Self-Justifying in the primary stage and a pride-booster in the secondary stage.
If you have watched Se7en(1995) the David Fincher/Morgan Freeman movie,
(**SPOILER**)
the villain in it kills a prostitute JUSTIFYING HIMSELF that he cleaned some kind of dirt off the world.
On the other hand the Detectives, JUSTIFY THEMSELVES that if they catch/prosecute that guy they will be SELF-SATISFIED because they will have caught a murderer.
Finally…
According to Science the first aim of the World is : TO SURVIVE. And to do that it has to SURVIVE Physically and PSYCHOLOGICALLY both and KEEP EVOLVING TO MAINTAIN THAT IN ANY POSSIBLE WAY for the whole life-time. Each Species in the world has its own way to achieve that. The only difference is Homo Sapiens have developed significantly in the Mental Field as compared to other species. AND ALTRUISM IS JUST ONE OF THOSE WAYS FOR HUMANS.
After all, the Mind is more powerful than the Body. Our main aim is to satisfy our Mind by commanding our Body to follow the way that the Mind orders it to follow depending on the GENETIC-MAKE UP OF THE MIND WHICH KEEPS EVOLVING. (Remember the Mind is in the Brain and Evolution decides how a particular Mind of a man will behave. I has It’s own ways of selfish self-justification.) Recalled the Morsel Story?
CONCLUSION: So (SELF–SATISFACTION / SELF -JUSTIFICATION / PRIDE IN MODERATE AMOUNTS/ A FEEL-GOOD EFFECT) are the Keys and basic necessities for the SURVIVAL of any species WHATEVER way it acquires them. And I think, ALL these keys are non-altruistic. It has nothing to do with the good deeds we do in the material world (Previous example: the morsel in the pocket).
Think of it in a psychological and NOT a material-world type of way.
Yes, this May be 500 words or perhaps more ! =)
I do not think that i said
“the is something wrong with being an Atheist”
i Just wanted to know why some one would or would not be one, that is all…
(kind of Harmless, i might add)
Hey Amol, I haven’t been keeping up with the discussion you and Vic have been having regarding altruism, but I got a jist of what’s being exchanged. I take it you are speaking of the ethical egoism? The psychological belief that nobody can be truly altruistic since even if someone does something that doesn’t apparently benefit them, it benefits them mentally and therefore it is not completely altruistic?
You cannot state it as fact, I remember studying this, forgot which famous psychologist was known for this theory. I know it’s not Carl Jung or Freud… Pavlov? Butler? Watson? Hobbes? Maslow? Erickson? Adler??? Damn, I have so many names and it’s been so long since I’ve studied it that I can’t differentiate any of them from the rest…
Anyway, I take it you’re a believer of this school of thought? Nothing wrong with that, but just remember that it is a school of thought, it is a theory. In a way, it’s kind of an opinion as well, it’s not a definite proved concept, so people will disagree with you and you’ll just have to accept that as the way it is and accept the concept that this theory might very well be wrong. I’m not saying it is wrong or right, just stating that point.
Oops, meant to write “proven” not “proved” lol.
Like Ken has said this is merely your theory. You can’t know for sure that no one is altruistic. You can’t speak for everyone and you can’t know all their reasons. For all you know there could be one or one thousand people out there who simply do good things and yet may not even feel good about it. The problem with your theory is that you work with the assumption that you know how every human in the world thinks.
Come on man, I KNOW this is an Opinion site.
DO I HAVE TO DECLARE ON TOP OF EVERY POST OF MINE THAT IT IS ‘MY’ OPINION ???
…And I think I have enough basic sense to understand that a particular theory, concept or experiment works only for a particular section of guinea pigs. NOT ALL.
We have to derive our own customised formulae for each excetion that we find out, OFCOURSE.
Btw, This was Only “MY” HUMBLE opinion. =)
OOPS!
It should be “exception” instead of “excetion”.
@Ken
What?!
That theory/observation/experience of mine INDEED IS in some Psychology book by some Pyscho… OOPS… Psychologist?!!
CAN’T BELIEVE IT !!
Oh may be then I have do have some cerebrums (a learning one at that) on my shoulders !!!
Thanks for telling me that. I did not know it. I just stated it as I learnt it from Life.
And that is one of the most basic lessons of the psyche that I observed/learnt from Life. I think it must be true. Isn’t it? I mean I don’t know. I never learned psychology during academic years. If any of you have learnt it, I would like to learn some basics from you. Ofcourse I can access it from the net anytime. But a discussion is better. The basic psychology. Knowledge of it could be advantageous in real practical life.
@ de ron Assis
I said : Because I have that degree, I am in a ‘BETTER’ position (than most of you) and NOT in the ‘BEST EVER’ position to judge SCI-FI movies. Got the difference?
…And if any one is more qualified/experienced than me in that field, I say nothing is better than that! We could discuss Sci-Fi movies (of course not out jobs. They are confidential.)
@ No Name Face
By Atheist, I don’t exactly mean a non-believer, (I don’t know what religion you belong to but ) just like Lord Jesus Christ is a God for Christians (I think most of you are Christians on this forum), we have Lord Krishna, Lord Ram and many others as Gods in Hinduism.
You and me, we all have known and learned for centuries about all the miracles and good deeds that they did for human beings.
But I think that the stories of these Gods that traveled for centuries from one generation to the next were exaggerated by the time they reached us.
I don’t want to offend anybody but I think All these Gods: Jesus, Krishna, Ram were just courageous intelligent humans who toiled hard for other fellow beings and were not some supreme miracle-doers from out of this world.
And when I look at it that way (that they were mere humans who did good deeds) it’s OK for me. That somebody from our own earth, somebody made of our own Flesh and blood has done so much for their fellow beings.
I shun the supernatural.
I believe only in logic. (both in life as well as programming. HA HA HA!).
Btw, The real life people, I look up to, are my parents, Newton, Hawkins, Einstein, Jagdishchandra Bose, CV Raman, Bill Gates, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Denzel Washington, Tom Hanks and Bruce Lee.
Pretty much anybody who is admirable and intelligent and done some good works in life. After all, anybody can be a Teacher for anybody.
We just have to have positive approach towards Life and our feet firmly on the ground.
I hope I am not Preaching.
Btw, This all is “MY PERSONAL” opinion. (I am tired of declaring this. Can I stop now? ) =)
BTW, I just recalled, Do any of you by any chance, have Good Batman comics in PDF format? We could exchange some.
@Amol
I’m not going to read your two massive posts, but will just say that all you have to do is look at soldiers in battle sacrificing their lives for those of their comrades and that blows a huge hole in anyone’s “no one is altruistic” theory.
I’m done.
Vic
Amol, psychology is just a class you take in college because it’s an easy A and it is full of hot girls…
Vic can you shut down the comments on this thread.
I can take it anymore,,,,,,,,,
Amol,,, your trolling bigtime.
Ken,,, your just enabling him.
What? I just respond whenever he directs something at me the like any other person has been responding when a comment is directed at them, lol. But ok, anyway, I second your “motion” anyhow, it’s WAY off topic. Especially once I start talking about hot girls you really don’t want it to continue down that road…
Sorry 790 just so you know you can always just stop looking at them. Also Ken isn’t the only one responding to him so why are you only labeling him with the enabling title?
Ofcourse, I am NIL in psychology. How should I know ? I just put forward what I thought I GENUINELY experienced.
BTW, Do any of you by any chance, have Good Batman comics in PDF format? We could exchange some on the net.
Geez louise papa cheese….you have no idea how scary it is to log into your email account and find all these posts from this topic! I’m so glad they weren’t about my post lol.
You all are entertaining me…I want you to know that… :p
and vic’s the man!
* Vic
@Vic
(”all you have to do is look at soldiers in battle sacrificing their lives for those of their comrades and that blows a huge hole in anyone’s “no one is altruistic” theory.
“)
I think its just MASS HYSTERIA.
HYSTERIA: wild uncontrollable emotion or excitement.
(source: The Oxford Dictionary)
Once inside the Battle, it’s important to overcome fear and the only brain knows to overcome it in EXTREME conditions is Mass Hysteria.
@Amol,,,
Sigh ,,,,,
Both Iron Man & Batman were altruistic.
Iron Man had Yinsen, and Batman has Alfred.
Case closed
Next ,,,,
@Amol
Someone sacrificing their life for another is MASS HYSTERIA?
I’m not even going to respond to that. I’m done talking to you about this.
Man oh man…
Vic
Yah Vic, I agree with that one. Amol, you basically just made a personal attack on most of my friends and myself…
I dunno about ‘mass hysteria’, but I don’t think that soldiers are entirely altruistic either. No offense intended, but there is a rush on the field as I understand it, holding a man’s life in your own hands. I’m not saying soldiers are only in it for the killing, I just feel that it’s naive to think that the soldiers on the field are ‘doing it for the team’ only, purely at their own expense. Next you’ll tell me the boys in blue are our best friends and politicians have our best interests at heart.
]]
Uuuhhhhh, I’m sorry, but did you just put politicians in the same arena as law enforcement and the military??
Ok, I will try to maintain composure here…
If someone breaks into your house with a gun and threatens to kill you and your family, do the “boys in blue” a favor and just don’t call them, because apparently you don’t need them, and they don’t need you putting their lives on the line to try to save yours, just handle it yourself.
What is this, the start of the “let’s insult all of our service men” trend??
Oh, so the politicians who fight for your rights every day on capital hill, desperately trying to pass laws that benefit you and your family deserve scorn then, is that it? Because they are the only ones who take questionable paths to achieve their goals?
Sacrificing your life is a big deal, I’m not trying to dismiss this. But to think they get nothing out of it, that the gun doesn’t give a power surge, that the authority doesn’t go to the head, that’s just… Silly. I think it’s also asinine to dismiss politicians, so I assume your just saying we shouldn’t compare them to military and law enforcement because they don’t get shot at. And even if that’s the case, I contend they are fighting every single day.
Wow, someone who respects politicians more than our service men… And I thought I’ve seen it all…
I’m sure getting yourself into a cushy job where you never have to exert yourself, or risk anything, and possibly get rich from it, is such a self sacrificing way to live…
Exactly how many poor politicians do you know? Those are probably the only honest ones, and there aren’t too many of them. How is what they do honorable at all? I support certain politicians because they vote in a way that I agree with, not because of them as a person. They probably go the way they do because it benefits them in some way.
Do you get rich being a cop? Do you get rich enlisting in the military? So while I agree it’s not completely altruistic, the military and law enforcement jobs give you plenty of benefits, but there are plenty of other work where you get paid more AND you don’t have to risk your life. The fact that these people chose that route show that they have some desire to do some good. Politicians, they KNOW they have a good chance to make it rich as long as they are successful in being a politician. Special interest groups donate hundreds of thousands of dollars to individual politicians if they know there’s a bill to be voted on that might affect their business.
To say that they are “fighting for our rights” is kind of ridiculous. SOME of them actually care, but most of them are just fighting along party lines. People who step out of those lines are kicked out like Joe Liebermann.
The only people “fighting for our rights” are our troops and our law enforcement officers. I don’t care what you say, comparing them to politicians is a downright insult. Why don’t you compare them to lawyers while you’re at it?
Sure. Soldiers are like lawyers, politicians, fire fighters, doctors, actors, murderers, peace keepers, police officers and drug dealers. Sometimes a soldier risks his life because he wants to serve a cause greater than themselves. Sometimes she just doesn’t care about her life enough to not enlist in a dangerous career. There is much honor to be found in serving but there is also greatness in thinking for yourself, and knowing what’s worth following. When our Marines were given orders to let the Iraqis riot and all but allow insurgents to take over, wouldn’t it have been nice if they could act for themselves instead of just doing what corrupt generals told them to do?
Corruption is endemic and runs through every job every office and I want to say every home. I don’t think it’s black and white because there are degrees of compromise we take in life. I find it interesting you’re quick to point out that politicians make choices because it benefits them in some way, when that’s been what I’ve been saying about EVERYONE. Ultimately, you seem to take the stance that a person’s, uhm, value? is how much blood they leave or are willing to leave on the floor. I say the best a thing we can do is learn how to sew up another’s wound.
One thing I will never do is salute blindly. I don’t believe it serves to ignore faults and focus on positive, I think it makes those negatives worse. You take it all, the good the bad and you try to keep it good. The image gets scuffed but the heart is stronger for it.
“Oh, so the politicians who fight for your rights every day on capital hill, desperately trying to pass laws that benefit you and your family deserve scorn then, is that it?”
If you really believe this you are incredibly naive about what goes on in Washington.
Based on comments from a few people here it’s becoming blatantly obvious to me that an entire generation having been raised without having to sacrifice much due to the plenty in the U.S. has created a skewed vision of the world and people in general.
I think I’ve seen enough in this thread – it’s way jumped the tracks and it’s just starting to aggravate me.
Vic