‘Game of Thrones’: Will Lady Stoneheart Appear in Season 5?

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Game of Thrones Lady Stoneheart Game of Thrones: Will Lady Stoneheart Appear in Season 5?

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[SPOILERS AHEAD for the A Song of Ice and Fire books and Game of Thrones Seasons 1-4.]

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The last three episodes in the fourth season of HBO’s Game of Thrones managed to depict multiple brutal battles, many major character deaths, and more than a few revelations. However, the season 4 finale, “The Children” - read our review - failed to unveil a book character that many fans have been anticipating since season 3: Lady Stoneheart. The character makes her first appearance in the epilogue of A Storm of Swords, the book on which most of season 3 and 4 were based, and plays a bigger role in the fourth novel, A Feast For Crows.

For non-book readers, Lady Stoneheart is the reanimated corpse of Catelyn Stark. After the Red Wedding, Catelyn’s body is recovered by the Brotherhood Without Banners and their leader, Beric Dondarrion, gives his life for hers. In A Feast For Crows, she leads the Brotherhood on a mission to exact vengeance for the suffering of her family.

During an interview about 24, EW asked Michelle Fairley, who portrayed Catelyn on Game of Thrones, about the likelihood of Lady Stoneheart joining the other magical creatures — such as dragons, whitewalkers, the children, etc. — in season 5. Fairley reiterated one major criticism of the Lady Stoneheart plotline within the A Song of Ice and Fire novels: it’s not imperative to the overarching narrative (not yet, anyway).

Read the full exchange:

EW: There was a lot of online conversation. I heard third-hand that you were basically told that it’s not likely to ever happen. Is that accurate?

Fairley: Yeah, the character’s dead. She’s dead.

EW: Do you have a preference at all — do you think Catelyn’s arc should end where it ended, or would you be into the resurrection idea?

Fairley: You respect the writers’ decision. I knew the arc, and that was it. They can’t stick to the books 100 percent. It’s impossible — they only have 10 hours per season. They have got to keep it dramatic and exciting, and extraneous stuff along the way gets lost in order to maintain the quality of the brilliant show.

As explained on the Screen Rant Underground podcast, it was unlikely Fairley would return as Lady Stoneheart in the season 4 finale for monetary reasons. Now, these new comments from the actress don’t give much hope for her return in season 5 – unless, of course, Fairley is better at the “game” than her character, Catelyn, was.

Game of Thrones Lady Stoneheart Red Wedding Game of Thrones: Will Lady Stoneheart Appear in Season 5?

Additionally, after “The Children” aired – to HBO’s best ratings since The SopranosEW interviewed the episode’s director, Alex Graves, who said Lady Stoneheart was never planned to be included in the fourth season.

Read Graves’ full quote:

They [showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss] have such a challenge adapting the books into a really focused television experience. It’s very hard, it’s very complicated, it’s much harder than they’ve been given credit for, I think — and they do a brilliant job. But to bring back Michelle Fairley, one of the greatest actresses around, to be a zombie for a little while — and just kill people? It is really sort of, what are we doing with that? How does it play into the whole story in a way that we’re really going to like? It just didn’t end up being a part of what was going to happen this season. And finally one [more] reason: In case you didn’t notice, a lot happens this season … To add that in is something they opted out of. But what’s funny is that it was never going to be in the season, yet it took off on the Internet like it was going to happen.

The idea of Lady Stoneheart on Game of Thrones is appealing – who wouldn’t want to see a vengeful zombie wreak havoc (and justice) on Westeros? Lady Stoneheart’s revenge storyline sounds exceptionally exciting on paper, but so far in A Song of Ice and Fire it hasn’t proved to be an important part of the story and more or less acts as a branch moving farther away from the central themes rather than intersecting.

Whether or not Lady Stoneheart’s plot will pay off over the course of the books, however, remains to be seen when the final two, The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring, are released. But, in terms of Game of Thrones, both Graves and Fairley make sound points that Lady Stoneheart may not be able to fit into the show in terms of time and story structure.

Game of Thrones Lady Stoneheart Beric Dondarron Game of Thrones: Will Lady Stoneheart Appear in Season 5?

As Benioff and Weiss mentioned while talking about the fourth season finale, the tenth episode is usually “clean-up” but “The Children” had just as many, if not more, revelations than the preceding episode, “The Watchers on the Wall”. Running an extra 15-20 minutes longer than a typical Game of Thrones episode, it’s clear that “The Children” had enough going on without the addition of Lady Stoneheart.

Still, Graves said the showrunners didn’t give him a definitive answer as to whether or not Lady Stoneheart would appear in season 5. Though Fairley’s perspective on the status of her character seems set in stone (pun intended), it’s possible the Benioff and Weiss are keeping Lady Stoneheart under wraps for now.

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Game of Thrones will return for season 5 in 2015 on HBO.

Source: EW

TAGS: game of thrones

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  1. I agree there are only 10 hours and a ton of characters to cover. They should consider more time per season.

    • Agreed, at first I though that they only started with 10 episodes because they didn’t know if it would be a hit…then after it was a hit figured they’d up it to…hell 24 episodes a year sounds good to me! BUT they say it takes a month to film etc an episode and I don’t care how good of a show you are if you take too long in between season people will move on.

      • Plus 24 episodes per season is ridiculous, no matter what show you’re making. That’s a sure way to create overkill and disinterest in a show. It only ever worked for me with 24 because each episode was meant to be an hour in real time but other shows having more than 12 episodes? No thanks, cut the episode ratio down by half and really make it count instead of spending 10 months writing and filming a season then another 2 months to write the next season before it starts airing again with writing happening on the fly, meaning more chance of plot holes and inconsistencies.

        If there’s one complaint I have about American TV, it’s that shows can outstay their welcomes by hanging on beyond the 12 episode per season limit.

        • If you don’t like America, get the F out. If you aren’t American, well, you really don’t count.

          • Nice attitude. It’s no wonder you all get tarnished with the same brush. What happened to freedom of speech?
            However much I love America it’s people like you that get your country stereotyped.

            • **Please Do Not Feed The Trolls**

            • Are you trying to be ironic by criticizing a bad joke with a stereotype and then immediately stooping to that very level, or is it just incidental?

              • i’m not trying to be ironic.. im telling you not to pay this person any attention.

    • Someone above mentioned that they should consider having more time per episode per season or having more shows. Sadly, this is not going to happen. The show is already incredibly expensive and there is no money for extra anything.

  2. I am in the minority, but I prefer the show.

    The books are too bloated. It gets tedious at times. The show is lean and fast.

    I was surprised at how many people were disappointed by the lack of cold hands, as he clearly had NO impact or importance to the overall story.

    Lady Stoneheart I did figure was going to be included later. It it is shocking to hear that she is cut completely, especially since the last time we saw her in the books, it sounded like she was setting up a major plot pivot. Even as a fan of the trimmed down material, this has me scratching me head.

    • Thing is, they know how Martin wants to end the books and so if his notes left them feeling like her arc was underwhelming, I wouldn’t blame them for cutting her completely.

      I expected her to be the final shot of the season but I’m honestly not upset that she wasn’t in it. Then again, I refuse to read the books until the show’s done to avoid spoiling myself because not only do I NOT want to know where things are heading now, I also don’t want the feeling I had with every Harry Potter film where I’d walk out disappointed because something was changed, removed or added for no reason at all.

      • I actually wasn’t too bummed about her not being included in the finale because it was already so jam packed. But to have her removed completely is very upsetting to me, but mainly because of the implications that it has for the books.

        If she has been removed from the show, then it means that she probably didn’t really serve too big of a purpose in the books. IMO, that would sort of confirm my fears that GRRM has written himself into a corner with many of the storylines and doesn’t have satisfying conclusions for many of them. That would be a shame, because I love ASOIAF and I was really hoping that books 6 and 7 would bring it back to the glory that was A Storm of Swords.

        • Ok major SPOILER ALERT*******

          Her character could very well end up being very important to the story. Last we see in the books, she captures brienne and accuses her of being payed by the lannisters. She kills podrick and will do the same to brienne if she doesn’t convince her otherwise. Right before the chapter ends brienne says an unknown word. After that brienne comes across Jamie. She tells him that the hound has sansa and they must go rescue her together alone. But at this point the hound is dead which brienne knows as well as she knows he never had sansa. So this is a possible setup where she will turn him over to stoneheart. Although we don’t know what really is going on so anything is possible and regardless of what happens this seems like an important story arc that could shake things up. There is also speculation that she could play some part in John snows story

          • But if she is removed, it means that she probably will not have a major impact on the overall narrative in the books, especially in regards to John Snow’s character. I’ve read the books as well and I assumed that she would have an important part to play based on what you just described.

            Again, I’m not worried about the show. I think it’s fantastic and I agree with the changes they make like 90% of the time. I’m worried that the last two books will have unsatisfying conclusions to plot lines and will need to throw away characters that seemed like they could have a big impact.

        • And it also has implications that Brienne and Jaime will survive their encounter with stoneheart in the winds of winter most likely. If they aren’t including her then one can assume Brienne and jaimes encounter won’t lead to either of their deaths. Which ruins the suspense

      • You wouldn’t have to worry about that. Converting a 700 page book into a 2 hour film is always going to be a fail, but into 10 hours of TV works much better and the changes they’ve made have been interesting.

    • It sounds awful to me to have a zombie walking around ,so its good she is out !
      Sounds cheap somehow !

      • The walkers army is made up of zombies what are you talking about? And she’s not a zombie anyways. She still has brain function. She’s the same as the beric but fueled by blind vengeance

        • Thats my point,if she is like a mindless white walker zombie killing people its better left out ! But if she still has brain function as you mentioned i can see it work !

  3. I call BS

  4. George regrets introducing Stoneheart, so if she’s not essential to the bigger picture, I could see her being cut.

    • why would he resurrect the mother of the stark children if she wasn’t important he featured her in book 3 and she is still in book 5 and now he would have killed her off long before if she was a mistake and now she is dealing with highly important people even introduced to the show watchers. If she is not in then Brienne, Brotherhood, Pod, Jaime will have totally different roles than in the books. If this is true then David and Dan (showrunners) are the biggest tv writers seen.. You don’t write out such a character

  5. I’m torn between leaving her out of the show, but let’s be clear about one thing: it’s not true that they just didn’t have time, as instead of spending what ends up totaling about thirty minutes of Greyworm’s love life, they could’ve introduced Lady Stoneheart.

    That aside, her character kind of diminishes the stakes, repercussions, and possibly the heartbreak of the Red Wedding; i.e., it kind of takes the sting out of characters that we care about dying and makes paying the ultimate price less tense because it’s no longer final. On the other hand, her introduction in the book is a fun read.

  6. Yea they’re gonna leave her out.
    That throwaway scene in The Children with Cersei and Qyburn, Frankensteining The Mountain means Ser Robert Strong is going to be in season 5. He’ll be our zombie fix for lack of Cold Hands & Stoneheart. I just hope we get a great cast for Dorne!

    • I hope not, I want to see the scene were Doran Martell opens the box with Clegane’s skull in it.

  7. I`m sorry, but nothing they say will ever convince me to respect their decision to exclude her. Except for Michelle Fairley dying (god forbid cause i absolutely love the actress).

  8. Nooooooo! No! No! No! Leave out Coldhands, leave out Jon and Arya’s warging abilities, leave out anything else, I’ll be upset but I can handle it, but DON’T leave out Lady Stoneheart. She is such a cool character! And if my interpretations are somewhat correct, Jaime is in for a huge surprise next book! :D

    Let’s be honest here, the best time to have revealed her was the season finalé. Think about the feeling you had when you read it in the epilogue. The feeling of pure excitement! And you felt that justice will finally being served! :D. I think this “we had no time story” is complete b*******. They could’ve saved a few minutes and NOT killed Jojen! They could’ve left out Greyworms stupid love story. We didn’t have to see the whole Qyburn, Mountain, Cersei scene (could’ve waited till next season). There was enough time!

    Look, I’m all for changes in the show. Some of them, I think worked really well but when you deviate this much (like killing Jojen, not introducing Stoneheart) it stings and I just hope they remedy the situation.

    Sorry about the rant, I’m just a very passionate ASOIF fan :D

    • I agree. I always thought Lady Stoneheart would be included in a post-credit scene. These are the instances that require PCSs.

      Howerver, since the show is done with GRRM consultation, I am sure she would be included in Season 5 IF she is important to the overall plot.

    • I agree. If they take Lady Stoneheart out, I will be very pissed.
      Like really, you don’t ressurect such a loved character if she’s not important.
      You don’t kill a character like Dondarrion for her if she’s not important.
      Plus, she seems to me the one that took vengeance in her own hands, while other lords were affected, sure, but we haven’t seen any vengeance from them yet. As a character she has great potential.
      I really hope we’ll see Lady Stoneheart next season.

    • There has never been a better time to use a post credits scene! The problem I see with introducing Lady Stoneheart next season is that they have lost their hype/shock factor. I mean, the Sroneheart reveal was so hyped by the media, and everyone who has read the books, that everyone was boiling over with excitement for the reveal. Now, after the episode has aired, we get all the “Why Lady Stoneheart was not revealed” articles and for non-book readers, the “big surprise” has probably been spoiled or so hyped by their friends (and the internet) that when the “big surprise” does come, it won’t seem like a big deal…

  9. So it’s more important to have random episodes with not much happening like Reek pretending to be normal in order to get a moat fort taken over to please his master, or for the boring Meereen plotline, or Brianne going for a jaunt with squire boy, etc.

    These would seem like lesser characters to be focusing on considering the brutality of the Red Wedding and the loss of so many Starks. WTF ever.

    • Dude, that doesn’t make sense. How do you gauge which characters are more important than the other? Everyone has a story to tell, their slice may be small now but it’ll build to something larger in future.

  10. SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I’ve just started reading a feast for crows. I’ve heard from somebody on a GOT website that Brinenne is murdered by Lady Stoneheart in one of the books? So if that’s the case, surely she’d be in the show?

    • Yes! She and Podrick are murdered or better sentenced to death by her. So she has to be in that show!

      • they could easily have berric dondarion do that

        • You guys didn’t read a Dance with Dragons, did you?

          • i did… i’m just avoiding spoilers. that whole bit with brienne/jaime/LS in DwD is weird. theres gonna be some twist.

  11. to not include Lady Stoneheart at all would be a huge mistake. She’s obviously going to have a big impact on the story in the long run… I hate the show’s attitude when it comes to making changes just for the sake of making changes. (particularly with Jon and Bran’s stories) like, why was Jon not in charge of the wall during the attack? that was a huge coming of age moment for him in the book, but no, in the show he’s taking a bunch of poop from Thorne the whole time. That wasn’t even as bad as in season 2 when they make it so that Ygritte “escaping” and Jon and Quorrin Halfhand getting captured by wildlings was due to Jon’s incompetence and not just a hopeless situation that there was no way out of, like it was in the book.

    • We must be watching different shows, because I certainly remember Jon taking charge of the Wall after Thorne descends to the Castle. Jon is also the same guy who, while in charge, ordered Grenn & Company to hold the Inner Gate while Mag the Mighty attacked it. I don’t recall anything “obvious” that implies Stoneheart would have any major impact on the story in the long run as far as the books go. Besides, it cheapens what happened at the Red Wedding to have Zombie Cat stalking the countryside with Thoros & Friends. Unless she is meant to kill a major character or alter events that affect the game, she isn’t necessary. The story is going to culminate in 3 Targareyans rising to fight the White Walkers. If she is going to somehow make up for her treatment of Jon once it is known what his REAL parentage is and facilitate that moment or have her murder Jamie and Brienne, sure toss her in the story. If not, her storyline is just another piece of a constantly growing bloated story that does nothing to advance the narrative anymore than GRRM’s fixation on the details of each and every bloody meal in the books does. Hell, at least with the tv show covering Grey Worm’s faux-relationship with Missandei, we get really nice Missandei “Scenery” and a reason to look at the Unsullied as something more than Esos zombies with pointy hats.

      • 1) thorne is not there at all in the book. jon gets back to the wall and finds the most capable man in charge is the one-armed blacksmith.. so he takes charge. immediately. before the battle/siege even begins (and incidently is two separate occasions that last for weeks).

        2) jon in the book would never have told gren to go do that. it’s the aforementioned blacksmith who died defending the gate in the book. without telling anyone. jon later laments not being a better leader who could have prevented his death, and that a better man than him had to die while he lived.

        3) if you’ve ever read this or any other book by martin than you know that basically every single thing he writes has some significance or another to the overall story. a detail as big as “major character who died but then came back to life as a vengeful zombie” is SURE to have huge ramifications later on.

        4) you seem to be calling the end of the book pretty confidently. I also believe in R+L=J, but I’m not sure where you’re getting this third targ from… unless you actually beleive young grif is who he thinks he is… or you’re one of those people who thinks tyrion is a targ. either way, you’re making a much larger claim than i am. all i said was that “a big plot element that was introduced will pay off down the road”. while you’re saying “it will end this way”

        5)the scenes with grey worm and missandei were a complete waste of time, however i didnt say anything about them in my original post so im not sure why you brought it up to defend it.

        6)go home.

        • 1. Typically when one is discussing the events of a television show, one focuses on the events of………….wait for it……..the television show. FYI, Thorne isn’t there in the books anymore than his boy toy from the Gold Cloaks. Since we’re not watching a series that has 20 episodes of exposition to lay out on an annual basis, charges are obviously necessary to keep the viewer engaged. Everything that occurred in the Battle of Castle Black was true to the characters in the show.

          2.In case you hadn’t noticed, Donal Noye, the one-armed Blacksmith isn’t on the television show. When trying to make a scene have impact for the viewer, one typically would assume to see a character that the viewer is familiar with. For them to use “Token Night’s Watch Member #1″ would have had the impact of no one giving a flying crap. Jon waxing poetic on wishing he could have done more works as his perspective in thon the books unfolds, on the television show, it’s silly when there are a lot of other concerns happening at the same time.

          3. Yes, GRRM waxing poetic on the blueberry cheese laden goat leg simmering in the pot is a surefire example of him only writing about things that matter later. Hell, who doesn’t remember the heady details of the Night’s Watch Members who were with Osha when Bran was attacked in G.O.T. We all remember how that was relevant in the books later………….wait, what?

          4. You haven’t been paying attention to the books apparently. As has been stated several times in the books, there are ALWAYS at least 3 Targareyans (Hence 3 Dragons for the aforementioned individuals). Jon Connington, Rhaegar’s best friend (and whom Rhaegar’s OTHER son is named after) has Zip, Zero, Nada, Zilch reason to lie about who Rhaegar’s son is. Again, 3 dragons, 3 Targareyans. If I recall correctly, even Maester Aemon stresses that fact before he switched to room temperature. But maybe much Mord’s golden teeth, Lady Stoneheart will be integral to the story ahead….sure, why not?

          5. The point in mentioning Grey Worm’s wanna-be love life is that the Unsullied are absolutely necessary to the story. However in the books they are just a group of nameless, faceless background characters. With making Grey Worm have a pulse on the show, they make the Unsullied into something they aren’t in the books but need to be on the show so that the average viewer gives a crap.

          6. Thanks for playing.

          • oh boy… theres an awful lot of stupid for me to respond to here, but i’ll try to keep it quick.

            1) how is adding things that weren’t there in the book necessary to cut down on runtime? it seems to me like this is pretty counterproductive.

            2) you completely failed to respond to my actual point which was that Jon would never order gren to his death. in the book, donal noye went in and defended the gate without anyone telling him to and is found dead after the battle. if jon had known a suiside mission was necessary to defend the wall, im sure he would have gone himself. he would NOT have ordered one of his best friends to do it while chilling up on the wall himself, where it was safe. they totally could have just had gren decide to go in and be a martyr on his own, but then they would have missed a perfectly good opportunity to mess up the jon snow character even more.

            3) actually, the particulars of meals often do have a lot of subtext. i suggest you do some research.

            4) You haven’t been paying attention to the books apparently. of course connington has no reason to lie.. of course he would want to see rheagars son claim the throne…. that’s why illirio and varys picked him. again, i suggest you do some research.

            5) it isn’t necessary to develop the unsullied. they aren’t characters, they are a plot device. even if they felt that they had to develop them, they went about it all wrong and ended up wasting everyone’s time in the process.

            • Boy, rarely does one get a statement so chock full of buffoonery. However, I’m going to enjoy shredding it apart nonetheless.

              1. What chain of events was added in the Battle of Castle Black that wasn’t necessary for character development? Character development in a way that appeals to the viewer is the primary focus of the writers. Their ratings illustrate that not only do they know their business, they’re really, really good at it.

              2. You completely miss the obvious point that we are only dealing with a handful of characters with actual names at Castle Black. Jon’s character must developed to show he is growing into the leader he is meant to be. Perhaps instead he could have resurrected Pyp and sent him? Maybe sent Sam? Wait, I know, how about Maester Aemon? Dolorous Ed? How about Johnny Generic Night’s Watch? Yes, the impact of that decision would resonate from one side of the series to another. Everyone could talk about that “Guy” who died in such glowing terms. Such a powerful bit of Leadership that would represent. Just thinking about how the Old Bear would go down to the gate and fight Mag instead of conducting his primary job of directing the defense of the Wall makes one get all excited.

              3. Yeah, mindless exposition on creamy, fatty foods is so important. Who doesn’t think back with nostalgia at the composition of Hobb’s nightly gruel? Feel free to post where the endless details about food has been integral to the story. Research that and get back to me.

              4. Is this your round-about way of admitting I’m absolutely right? Or……..are you going to Copy/Paste something I’ve posted in “error”. From a guy who missed the little detail about there always being 3 Targareyans, from Aegon the Conqueror to their present day, that ought to be interesting.

              5. Yeah, no reason to develop the Unsullied, particularly with what is going to start happening to them in Meereen, it’s much better to think of them as mindless automatons that are just background scenery. Giving them a human element is TOTALLY crazy town. Yet another superb analysis of what makes good tv. Why tell the story on the screen that has the most impact when you can just pretend a group of slaves that the Anti-Slavery queen released aren’t really human. Brilliant.

              6. Let me know how you make out on that research you obviously need to do. Thanks again for playing.

              • 1. It was completely unnecessary, and in fact, detrimental to the character development of Jon Snow for Aliser Thorne to be present at the wall during the battle. In the book Jon takes complete charge grudgingly because he knows he has to; because nobody else is equipped to do the job properly. Thorne is completely capable of taking charge, and out ranks Jon, so in the tv show he just takes charge, as he would. Then, during the battle leaves Jon in charge of the battlements when he goes down. This is now a completely different situation that Jon has been put in in the television show as opposed to the book, which fundamentally alters how his character is going to progress from this point onward. I can’t understand how you don’t see this. Jon in the book planned the entire defence by himself, or at the very least, made all the executive decisions. This puts a far greater responsibility on Jon, and makes him feel a whole lot more pressure than when he just gets field promoted because things are going south and the leader needs to jump in and go down with the ship. In the book, Jon’s excelent strategic defence strategies which earn the Night’s Watch a victory or at least a stalemate against both wildling raiders, and an attack force from the North, not just for one battle, but for a seige lasting weeks. This is why he earns the right to *******BIG SPOILERS********* getelectedlordcommanderattheendofbook3 *********** END ******** I honestly thought that one of the big reasons they broke up book 3 into two seasons was so that they could spend the whole season having Jon do this (and also Dany’s seige of Meereen). Instead he gets to have fun doing an anime-filler style mini-boss battle with mutineers who capture Bran and Co. The only big wall defending decision he ends up making in the tv show brings me to my second point which is….

                2. For the 12th time, that Jon would not have ordered ANYBODY; not Noye, not Sam, not Pyp, not Gren, not even Thorne to go in and die defending the gate from a giant. If book Jon knew that was necessary, he would do the thing himself, or try to anyway. I don’t care that it was Gren who died, of course it makes more sense for television than having a random character do it. My problem is that Jon makes the order. Yet another decision that has led the tv Jon Snow character to be much, much more poorly developed than his book counterpart. This is similar to (but not nearly as bad as when) Jon Snow’s handling of Ygritte cost Quorrin Halfhand and the other black brother their lives unnecessarily in Season 2. In the book, Jon and Co attack and kill the wilding camp except Ygritte just like the show, but in the book Jon asks what to do with her and is told to “do what he had to” nothing more. So Jon does what he thinks is right, and simply disarms and releases her. Then when Jon asks why Quorrin isn’t angry with him, Quorrin responds that he just wanted to get a measure of Jon’s character. Later on the party discovers that they are going to be caught regardless of anything they can do. Quorrin pulls Jon aside and tells him BEFORE they are captured (this is important) that he needs to defect to them to spy and must do so no matter what they tell him to do. Now, you can praise the writing of the show writers all you want, but you can’t honestly tell me you think that it was better character development for Jon Snow in the show to: 1) Try to kill Ygritte, but change his mind in mid-swing 2) get caught off gaurd and let Ygritte escape, rather than letting her go on his own and the 3) get lost and then captured while chasing her, leading Quorrin and the others to also get lost trying to save his ass. In the show, The scouts getting captured is ENTIRELY Jon’s fault. This is the same reason I don’t like that Jon orders Gren to die in the wall. In the book, Noye’s sacrifice was something that Jon had no control over. It was a breach in HIS plan. So he blames himself for it. Sure, he’ll blame himself for Gren’s death too, but in Gren’s case, the death occurred because Jon TOLD HIM to go do it. It had to be done, yes; hell, it even might have been the right call for Jon to make at the time, but it should have been Gren who took the initiative to go defend the tunnel. Hell, that would have even developed Gren a little more. The problem is that the show version of Jon is not mature enough yet to have made that order for the right reasons. Most of my friends who have only watched the show, but not read the book, think of Jon as a whiny annoying character. This is because the show has consistently done a poor job of writing Jon as a believable and relatable and compelling character, whereas in the books he is among the best of all those qualities. Kit Harrington does a great job playing him; I have absolutely no qualms with his performance. Its how the character is written that I can’t stand.

                3. Obviously I was making a joke about the foods; though several of the more important meals are interesting to pay attention to (red/purple weddings, manderly hosting the freys, etc). My original point with number 3 was that a detail as big as “major character who died but then came back to life as a vengeful zombie” is SURE to have huge ramifications later on. You employed a logical fallacy to compare the existence of a previously-major dead character coming back as a vengeful zombie in the source material to the fact that Martin often over describes meals, writing both details off as unnecessary for the tv show adaptation. What I’m saying is that, unless Martin has no idea where the Lady Stoneheart thing is going and wrote it on a whim (which I doubt), the character will in all likelyhood play a large role at some point before the series ends.

                4. No, this is my completely straight forward way of telling you that you’re wrong. ***********MAJOR SPOILERS, SKIP TO 5********************** Young Griff/Aegon VI (or VII? I can’t remember) is not, I believe, a real Targaryen. He is the last surviving Blackfyre. There’s a big long in depth theory with a bunch of evidence discussing the reasons why, check it out if you want; I encourage you do. But what it basically comes down to is that Young Griff and Jon Connington are both being lied to and used by Varys and Illirio Mopatis (Griff’s real father) so that they can effectively “win” the Blackfyre Rebellion in secret. If this is true, then Young Griff is not a Targaryen, and the third Targaryen you keep yelling about is Jon Snow (the first and Second being Dany and the Bloodraven). Unless you’re one of those people who believe that there is another major character (besides Jon Snow) who is secretly a Targaryen; I’m not. The only candidate who I believe holds any water is Darkstar as the true Aegon VI but he’s supposedly much older than Aegon should be. ******************END*******************************

                5. Developing the Unsullied is fine. It isn’t necessary, but its fine. The weight of the drama was perfectly palpable in the book without ever having to see much of it first hand. Developing Grey Worm is even fine, he’s the leader of course so it makes sense even though he isn’t one of the Unsullied killed and oh my god I just now realized where this is probably going. What DIDN’T make any sense and WAS a waste of time was the romance between Grey Worm and Missandei. It just didn’t work. They had nothing interesting to say to one another. Neither one of them was really developed. Both of the actor’s performances were stale, wooden, boring, and seemed forced. The actress who plays Missandei is fine in other scenes, but the romance scenes just didn’t work at all. To anybody I’ve talked to. They should have thought up a better way to develop the Unsullied if they wanted to do so at all. Though, the more I’m writing about this, the more I am agreeing with you that it is better they get development of some kind. Really though? Is giving their leader a not-romance the best way to do that? How about have him walk through the barracks and have a conversation with some of the troops about the general feelings they have about what’d going on. Hell, have a few of them stay on as tertiary characters, why not? The romance was a bad idea with worse execution.

                6. Thanks folks I’ll be here all week.

                • EDIT it has occured to me that the Bloodraven cannot be considered a Targaryen for the same reason that Young Griff can’t; oh well.

                • Since my posts for a week now keep getting blocked, I’ll try new tactic.

                  Part 1. I get it, on YOUR planet the green Lord Snow, nephew of Benjen Stark stepping up to take charge of the defense of the wall while his superior gives him the Wall…………..reflects on him “Poorly”. A Leader living the Kobyashi Maru, willing to sacrifice those he loves to accomplish the mission he has been assigned………reflects “Poorly” on him. After getting the ball rolling, descending into Castle Black to fight the Thenns & Company, INCLUDING the female that EVERYONE in Castle Black now knows he was banging……….reflects “Poorly” on him?

                  Yeah, I can TOTALLY see why the Generic Night’s Watch Corp would TOTALLY be against allowing the guy who stepped up and made the tough decisions so they didn’t have to, being voted their leader……….Brilliant. What’s next? On your planet Down is Up?

                • Part 2. So yet again, the young Lord Snow, stepping up to do what is BEST for the the defense of Castle Black, including sending one of the strongest warriors below to stop their biggest threat……….is a “Negative”. Being willing to sacrifice a Rook to protect ones Queen is TOTALLY not Strategy 101.

                  Better still, you weren’t happy when Jon exhibited actually leadership ability, yet you also weren’t happy when he showed himself to be the green, wet behind the ears non-Ranger that he was. You also don’t think it’s appropriate that Jon has grown up since killing the Halfhand. You don’t like the fact that everyone watched him travel along this journey where he in the end choses DUTY. Part of said Duty is, as a Leader chosing the best man for the job at hand.

                  You’ve obviously never been in the military as demonstrated by your dazzling lack of strategic thinking, so let me clue you on a secret:

                  Generals and Colonels don’t lead soldiers into combat. They chose the best men in their given command to do so. Hence Lieutenants, Sergeants, sometimes even the occassional Captain or Major may see action, while the COMMAND STAFF make the decisions. In the Fire Service, our Battalion Chiefs don’t lead us into a structure fire. Deputy Chiefs don’t hold the Hurst tool for rescue ops. They……delegate…….to those who hold lower ranks. Any Supervisor/Manager on Planet Earth does this, from a 19 year old kid who is a Shift Supervisor at McDonalds to the CEO of Apple.

                  In case you didn’t realize it, even Julius Caesar didn’t lead the vanguard into battle.

                  • Part 3: You yet again fall short in the critical thinking department. The writers of this show, unlike YOU, know how this whole story plays out. Hence they’ve decided that as of this point, there is NO POINT to Zombie Cat. If ONLY the writers had just tossed the outline of the story as given to them by G.R.R. Martin and instead relied on your superior knowledge of the future happenings in the Westeros/Esos region of Make-Believe-ia. (Insert Laugh Track Here)

                    4. Yes, dazzle us all with more in depth detail about the generic Moonbat/Wanker-Internet Theory of the week. Thrill the crowds with stories about how Rhaegar Targareyan’s best friend in the world somehow carries and protects the OTHER little boy who happened to be on hand versus the little Aegon who just so happened was totally unrecognizable thanks to a smashed face. Dazzle us with stories about how Dany, ANOTHER Targareyan in this story who also happens to be supported by………..Varys & CheeseMonger in Chief……….is secretly being sent a different Aegon. As we all know, Varys (a Targareyan himself though a bastard most likely) TOTALLY made the right decision to LIE to Kevan Lannister…..WHO HE KILLS SECONDS LATER.

                    “Aegon?” For a moment he did not understand. Then he remembered. A babe swaddled in a crimson cloak, the cloth stained with his blood and brains. “Dead. He’s dead.”
                    “No.” The eunuch’s voice seemed deeper. “He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.”

                    Yep, TOTALLY logical to lie to a guy who is literally preparing to breathe his last before your eyes. Really?

                    • Part 5: It’s funny how you think that evolving the guy and his fellow soldiers who no longer have their naughty bits with a female who happens to not have that problem equals……..romance. It’s a look at what they have lost and how it impacts their lives and how that could impact their role in the story ahead. We don’t know what Grey Worm or the the rest of the Unsullied’s future is. Are they all slaughtered in Westeros? Do they decide to stay in Esos? Do they decide to go to their respective homes? Looking at Missandei in person would certainly help me make a decision in that regard. Again, we don’t know what their respective futures hold. Dany being the Slave Liberator she sees herself as could mean that there is a hard left turn ahead that we don’t see yet. I just know that I personally would have a hard time adjusting to life in their shoes, since several times in the story we are told of the Unsullied going to Brothels means that some of them do as well. This could be no more than a fleshing out of that story in a way that reading paragraphs about it in the books does.

                    • 6. No matter how many times my comments get blocked, I will always fight to post common sense comments based on actually understanding the fiction I’m reading to combat the typical hipster derision that infects the internet like a plague these days.

                      Have IPAD will travel.

                    • Perhaps your comments are being blocked because you seem unable to keep personal attacks out of this debate… I’m trying to argue my points with evidence, etc. You seem more interested in making sarcastic remarks and logical fallacies. I’m obviously not going to convince you of anything at this point now that you seem to have resorted to name calling, so for this reason I’m going to keep this quick, and will no longer be responding hereafter.

                      1. I’m not saying the “Jon takes command” subplot was ineffective, I’m saying it was much MORE effective in the book.

                      2. I even said in my comment that sending in Gren may have been the right call… it’s just not the call book Jon would have made, and TV show Jon hasn’t demonstrated the maturity to make it yet, so it seemed out of place.

                      3. To reiterate: my original comment was that to not include her AT ALL would be a mistake. It didn’t have to be in season 4. Though your position on this topic has changed so many times, I’m not even sure what you’re arguing here anymore.

                      4. I’m not sure if you missed the detail about Young Griff having been raised by Illirio, and not Connington, but its in there. Also, if The Mountain had in fact switched out the babies, wouldn’t Tywin/Kevan already know? In that case, Kevan shouldn’t be surprised by the revelation that he is still alive. Also, Varys had no reason to lie to Kevan its true; but he has plenty reasons not to let the ENTIRE truth slip to his little birds, who while he essentially owns them, could still betray him if they really had the desire to.

                      5. Despite there being no future possibility of sex, it IS a romance, and it WAS done poorly.

                      6. “hipster derision” lol. I’m giving my opinion. It’s not an uncommon one. Grow up.

                    • Tell us, Herr Genius, where are these “Personal Attacks”, odd that a guy who claims to be backing up what he says with……..”Facts” (Wink! Wink!), yet he fails to Copy/Paste these “Personal Attacks”. Admittedly on some planets, illustrating the circular logic at the heart of your argument could be considered “Personal Attacks” if one were perhaps in kindergarten.

                      So lets dig in again, shall we?

                      1. Stating this: “1. It was completely unnecessary, and in fact, detrimental to the character development of Jon Snow for Aliser Thorne to be present at the wall during the battle.” means you are saying it was merely LESS effective than the books? I’ll take a shot here and say “detrimental” may not mean what you think it means.

                      2. So a man who has ordered to kill a fellow officer, a man who resented not getting the posting he wanted, to a man who found love for the first time in his life and then shortly thereafter make the decision to fight and kill if necessary said love, a man who was raised as the son of Lord Eddard Stark, believing he carries the centuries of Stark history on and off the Wall on his shoulders…….doesn’t have the “Maturity” to do what any competent Officer in that situation would do.

                      3. Ah, yet more strawmen? Feel free to Copy/Paste where my arguments have “changed” in this threat. Go ahead, I’ll wait.

                      4. You’re probably too young to have any children of your own, however if you have any friends who have children nearing adulthood, you don’t need to be there to recognize who they look like. I think its funnier still that you think the Mountain…….switched out the baby Aegon??? Of course, this is because Tywin Lannister’s Mad Dog would look at Elia holding an infant and immediately see it couldn’t be her and Rhaegar’s child. So since your attention span missed the bright neon sign in the room that pointed to the obvious answer, all your other “deductions” are nothing more than silly.

                      5. Again, you miss the fact that the show is leading the viewer to what they will see later, like the Unsullied going to brothels to obviously not have sex. This story is being slowly unfolded on the screen, a story that will develop over next season……..and you want it all bundled up in a nice little package that doesn’t require any logical deduction. Brilliant.

                      6. No, you are regurgitating nonsense that you read posted by others and then regurgitating it like a trained seal. Hence Hipster kids like you think its “Cool” to pick things apart all the while missing the forest for the trees. “Grow Up” Indeed.

                    • I find it amusing that you seem to think you know me… I’ve worked at an architecture firm for almost 10 years; in all likelihood, I’m older than you are. Also before you respond to something, maybe read it next time. But as I said before, I’m done. You can continue to misread everything I say to your heart’s content.

                    • GASP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                      10 Years?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

                      Golly, over 20 years ago I was finishing my first tour as a Navy Corpsman, loving life out of Twenty-Nine Palms alongside the Marines I had the honor to serve alongside of. But please, tell me more about the Architect world.

                      Perhaps you understand the Architect world better than the Game of Thrones world? One would hope.

  12. Leave the zombie crap to the zombie shows.

    GOT will have its hands full crafting a compelling narrative out of the bloated and directionless source material in books 4 & %.

  13. books 4 & 5.

  14. Here’s my take…We haven’t seen Beric for a whole season and a half, which kind of makes everyone forget about him and the Brotherhood Without Banners. They could have easily introduced and used her, because many of the episodes cut out early at around 50-54 minutes. That remaining time is plenty of story time to use, but was wasted. They’ve completely left out Jon and Arya’s warging abilities, and we haven’t seen Nymeria since season 1 after she bit Joff.

    The only way I see them adding Stoneheart is if it’s part of the overall theme of next season, resurrection, which was hinted at with the Mountain being ‘revived’ by Qyburn. Resurrection has been a major overall theme of the show in general, with bodies being reanimated as wights, with Beric/Melisandre, and some possible future events. I honestly think she has to be included because it fits the theme of what we’ve seen so far in the show. The problem is, as I said earlier, most people have probably forgotten about the Brotherhood Without Banners and Beric Dondarrion. However, I do believe Michelle Fairley is playing coy and she will return sometime in next season. They didn’t have to include her in season 4. They’ve been mixing things all over each season for each book, in no particular order.

    • I don’t think anyone forgot about a guy with a fire sword who got almost cut in half by the hound only to see him come back to life

  15. Too soon to be talking about this, do not care!!! Wake me up in 2015.

  16. I’m just gonna throw this out there…but I have strange suspicion that Sansa is going to end up bein lady stone heart….new get up, new attitude (liar) and briene is pretty damn close for future happenings.

  17. But neither of those quotes actually say weather or not it’s confirmed… because until Stoneheart is resurrected, Catelyn is dead. And Stoneheart is not the same, characteristic wise, as Catelyn (one an archetypal mother, the other a resurrected vengeance seeking undead) – but yet other news reports are acting like this CONFIRMS no Stoneheart and so the rest of the internet does.

    It doesn’t.

    And also the source of the quotes tell us not to take what there saying for set in stone – one is an actress who’s been asked about this whilst publicising her new show and has probably not talked to the Game of Thrones producers and writers for some time, and the other is a director who is desperate to continue his work on the show. Neither of them know what’s going on fully with the show because neither of them are producers or writers and so we just don’t know if what they’re saying is a line they’ve been told to say or if it’s because they honestly are unsure and want to keep book readers on their toes on what happens.

  18. I don’t get it. Even the director admits that there was a huge buzz circulating the internet about Lady Stoneheart. Your audience is directly telling you what they want to see. It’s basically free polling. And yet, you still didn’t think it was necessary to include her at all, nevermind the season 4 finale?
    You don’t want the fans of the show to be excited or thrilled or return to watching the show?

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