THIS IS THE PLACE TO DISCUSS ‘DARK KNIGHT RISES’ SPOILERS
[We originally published this in May 2012 but have re-published it as a place for fans to discuss spoilers freely after having seen the film. Be sure to also read our Dark Knight Rises Review.]
Considering how seriously director Christopher Nolan has taken these films, many fans have pondered whether or not Batman will (gulp) bite the bullet in the closing moments of The Dark Knight Rises. On the topic of endings, Batman trilogy writer David S. Goyer recently talked about the final scene of TDKR and the profound emotional effect it had on him.
POTENTIAL SPOILERS AHEAD!!
-
-
-
Courtesy of Empire Magazine:
“The final scene of ‘The Dark Knight Rises’ is exactly [the] scene we talked about [when Christopher Nolan and I started the trilogy with 'Batman Begins']. It remained completely unchanged. We both knew in our hearts that we were onto something special. I have to tell you, having finally seen everything strung together a little while ago and seeing that scene, I got a complete lump in my throat.”
Now, you might assume Goyer got a lump in his throat because he was witnessing his nearly decade-long dream realized (or something similarly sentimental).
However, Empire pressed the issue further and got a different response. After they inferred that Nolan was committing “commercial sacrilege,” Goyer said:
“Yup! That’s why it’s ****ing exciting!”
So what could this possibly mean, Screen Ranters? Is there something tragic about the ending of The Dark Knight Rises that might lead to lumps being formed in throats? To commercial sacrilege being performed? Will Batman – as fans have hypothesized all throughout the Internet – be kicking the bucket by way of Bane’s steroid-fueled fist?
Frankly, there are plenty of other possible scenarios for what David Goyer is hinting at. Perhaps Batman is just hanging up his cowl, and the poignancy of that moment alone was enough to put a lump in Goyer’s throat. Or perhaps another character dies – Alfred, Lucius, or Gordon. Heck, every time I see Michael Caine die in a movie (Children of Men, for example) my throat becomes practically ridden with lumps.
And if Batman were truly to die in Nolan’s final Batman film, would David Goyer dare broach the subject in an interview? Would someone so close to the project – one of the creative minds behind the various screenplays – discuss the key piece of this seven-year-old puzzle? Possibly the most important scene? Before it can be experienced by audiences firsthand?
Maybe. Hopefully not, though. If Batman/Bruce Wayne’s death is indeed in the cards for The Dark Knight Rises, one would hope that Goyer would have the willpower to keep mum until the film opens.
For an in-depth discussion of the film by the Screen Rant team check out our Dark Knight Rises episode of the SR Underground podcast.
The Dark Knight Rises hits theaters July 20th, 2012.
-
Follow me on Twitter @benandrewmoore.
Source: Empire Magazine [via Comic Book Movie]
![Fall TV 2013: 10 Best New Shows [Trailers]](http://static.srcdn.com/slir/w87-h65-c1.33:1/http://screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/abc-fall-previews-shield.jpg)
‘Dexter’ Season 8 Trailer: The Hunt Begins – How Will it End? 
‘Game of Thrones’ to End in Season 7? 
‘Pacific Rim’ Featurette Explores ‘Drift Space’; First TV Spot Offers More Action 
‘Halo’ Live-Action TV Series From Steven Spielberg Announced 
Am I the only one who has noticed the timeline of the clock in the film? We see the clock counting down and the timer reads 57:36. . . 35. . . 34 etc. And just how long is left in the film? 57 minutes. . . Its at about the 1hr 28 minute mark. So sad that I noticed, sadder still that I’ve posted this!
I would love that SO much. Christopher Nolan claims he’s done with the Batman movies, though. Let’s hope it’s just a ruse to make a crazy comeback with a Batman and Robin! Imagine what Nolan could do with the Riddler, especially after directing a movie as complex as Inception!
Nolan did say that he’s done with the Batman movies, but the door is open. Thing is: who could step in and do as good a job? Part of the “epicness” of the series is also the score.
Some people are asking about whether or not he meant to “die” , I think so. It seemed to click after he found out about Rachel’s letter. Also, he kept saying; “anyone can be a hero” throughout the movie. He even told Blake that he should wear a mask …
Leonardo Dicaprio got offered Riddler for this one but the studio and him couldn’t come to an agreement… I think that would of been sick… Prob better then Bane..
i can only hope and dream that the brilliant Nolan will continue this indeed. i saw an interesting pic someone created with Guy Pierce as the Riddler. that would be truely amazing.
Of course Chris bale said he’d never be batman alongside a robin. That and another movie would be nothing more but milking. This was an almost perfect ending to the story so l hope they never spoil it with more sequels
His brother will step in for the inevitable next film
His brother probably will xD
He didn’t die, he faked his death.
Bingo! I’ve been seeing rumors that Christopher Nolan has been trying to get his brother Jonathon(who has co written most of the movies his brother has directed) into a directors chair for awhile. I predict a new trilogy starring JGL and directed by Jonathon Nolan. JGL doesn’t have to fight as Robin, he could be nightwing or take up the batman mantle himself.
I will say the ending reminded me of Batman RIP. Also: remember what Dent said … “You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.” I think he faked his death for this specific reason.
Batman Beyond would be awesome, but iReally didn’t like the ending where they say his first name is Robin. A better line would have been “My legal first name is Richard, but I didn’t like being called Dick.”
No just NO! leave this trilogy alone, they can make a reboot don’t give a f. But leave this trilogy alone !
I don’t think he died. Towards the end he got the auto pilot to work. It says in the end he got it to work.
yh i like your line better, however whilst watching the film you could see most people having to explain the story to the person sitting next to them….the lady next to me was telling her mate that the riddler was saying “exile or death” she seemed quite clued up n a fangirl till that point, where i just shook my head n stopped eves dropping.
Only problem is barely anyone seeing the movie would know that was Robin’s name.
I wouldnt have gotten that..
Only if his last name was Grayson, not Blake. But that’d be too obvious from the beginning of the movie.
I agree with that. They didn’t even need to change the format of the line – Instead of saying ‘I like that name… Robin’ the girl could have said ‘I like that name… Richard Grayson’ or even just Richard.
Hahaha yeah that would’ve been more funny
So I thought the movie was cool, and I like the Batman series in general, but it had a looot of plot holes that need to be discussed. I know its just a movie, but as everyone says the Nolan Batmans pride themselves on realism, so here are some questions/comments/thoughts.
One concern that no one is bringing up is that Bane gives one speech telling people to rise up, and the next thing you know doormen are beating the hell out of their tenants and “average joe’s” are slaughtering rich dudes everywhere. In real life if a terrorist backed by a few dozen thugs told the people of Manhattan to “rise up”, they would be like, “Um, no thanks, moron.” Even with the backing of a bomb, can you imagine you and your neighbors just beating up rich people and authority figures because some random terrorist with a mask suggested it? No one would listen to that guy, cops or no cops. And since the whole movie was based on that concept, it ruined it a bit for me.
Also, another thing that no one is bringing up is how the hell did Batman make that fire Bat signal? You mean to tell me that with the city in peril and a ticking nuclear bomb about to go off he climbed all the way up to the top of that building or bridge, whatever it was, and spent hours hanging and swinging up there, lining it with oil or gas or something, and got it to not drip, but stay in the exact pattern of the bat symbol? I just didn’t get that.
Also, how come the dudes who were assigned to torture Bruce ended up becoming his friends?
And of course the usuals, like:
- I didn’t realize punching someone’s severed spine healed a broken back.
- How did Bruce get back to gotham from the desert?
- Even if he could travel that far, how did he get back on an island that was completely blocked of and under constant military watch?
- Trouble understanding Bane’s lines.
- And, on a lighter note, why did Catwoman have to do that flip thing to break that guy’s wrist in prison, there’s got to be an easier way.
- And, on an even lighter note, in the end we see Bruce with Selina. Do you guys really think that Bruce Wayne, the master of all things noble, a man who risked his life to protect the morality of his city, would ever really settle down with a career criminal, who even stole from him and pretty much left him to die? I mean, I know she eventually saved his life, and I know there’s the whole “clean slate” thing, but come on.
Again, believe it or not, I do like these movies, I just have to be fair and call certain things into question. Not bashing here, so answers would be appreciated, I’d love to hear opinions.
You do have a point, maybe he wants to take a break with Selina Kyle for a bit and kinda watch over Gotham at a distance and come back when it’s necessary. I can see that happening, but with this in mind it’d be kinda stupid for a reboot. And you just can’t bring in a new Bat 3 or 4 years after Nolan’s because you already have seen the latest batman and if you plan on using the same characters and themes all over again it just begins to be a waste of money. You also don’t want to pull a Tim Burtin. My thing is if they plan on adding onto Nolan’s they need to either recast batman and make him look more fresh, or you can go Batman Beyond and keep Christian Bale and recast a new Joker.
Actually, he didn’t give up on his parents legacy, in a way he fullfilled his third parents’ wish: Alfred’s wish. But I think the important thing here is that he gave Gotham a symbol of hope, something eternal like he said in Batman Begins. By going off the radar, it symbolized a sacrifice besides in the comics you have to remember there is a point where he gets too old to this and here, he’s too battered and moves on. It was good timing too because he knew someone else would take up the mantle and in a way, he ended his journey in the best way: as a symbol and as a successor. Thats my take on it!
Well I think he still is fulfilling his promise to his parents because there is still a batman, even if it’s not him. He has created a legacy, something undying like his promise to his parents. That being said I don’t think he could physically still be batman. With age and all, it was time to hand over the mantle to someone young with the same passion for good. Like Selina said he “has given them [Gotham citizens] everything.” It was time for him to have his life like Alfred wanted, he deserved it after everything he did for Gotham. (Which will be continued through officer Blake).
Plus you can also take it many ways from their think of it Robin, Batman Beyond, Justice league. Hell you can even bring in other villains and mash them with some other villains for a Clash of Gotham I itself which I think would be awesome to see.
Yeah I see that he may have done it for Alfred but in the comics, cartoons, etc. Alfred always wants Bruce to live an ordinary life but because of his parents death, Bruce relentlessly keeps on fighting and gives up many privileges as a sacrifice for his parents murder and Alfred eventually comprehends what Bruce feels and aids him no matter what. I do agree that he absolutely gave Gotham a symbol of hope. However, don’t u think that he would prefer to live up to his vow that he made to his parents rather than fulfill Alfred’s wishes? Maybe this was the right way to end Nolan’s fantastic trilogy. Each movie had its special moments and characters. Heck I think they should create a comic book series dedicated solely to Nolan cuz he truly made a unique, yet epic Batman. I would also like to ask all u fans out there why was John Blake drawing bat symbols on the walls while he was going from place to place and if he will become the next batman/robin/night wing/ or even batman beyond? Also how old is Bruce in this movie? He must be like 33 right? So he might not be too old
Yeah but if John Blake is supposed to be Robin doesn’t he need a batman to train him? That part confused me a bit. A mean he just can’t be robin without batman lol
That’s only because you never seen Robin without batman, but what Nolan did was he gave Robin batmans old role. Because batman was once a cop before he turned into a caped crusader in one of the comics.
I took it to mean that he’s to be the next Batman.
That his real first name is Robin was just a nod to the character (and perhaps a wink at fans).
I don’t think he is supposed to take the robin route at the end, I think it is implying he will take on the role of being gothams new batman, tbh when I found out his name was robin toward the end I figured it was a reference as to how he acted as batmans sidekick (somewhat) throughout the film, not so much as to what hero he would become,
well in the end he leaves a new bat signal tells robin about the cave with new additions to it i bet there was a training facility and when he done have his honeymoon he’ll go back to train him. in addition he told him “You should wear a mask.” “To keep the ones you love safe.”
Actually Robin is from the orphanage. You don’t know what his backstory is. He could have been a part of the flying Graysons. We simply don’t know what skills he already has.
Was his that charcter’s name John Blake? and I’m not saying robin cant exist without batman. What I mean is that he can’t become robin without batmans guidance, training, teaching.
He turned 30 in Batman Begins. The Dark Knight took place six months later. The Dark Knight Rises took place 8 years after that and the plot took place over a period of about half a year (not taking into consideration that the plane hijacking happened six months before the party at Bruce’s at the beginning of the film. So…Bruce is almost 40.
The reason blake was drawing bat symbols on the walls, was that he was making a note where the big truck with the bomb would pass by.
Thirty-three is an interesting age to suggest for Bruce Wayne, especially given his sacrifice for mankind.
If my calculations are correct Bruce Wayne is pushing 40 in this film. In Batman Begins on his birthday when rachel comes by to drop off his gift it said 30 in the background. so TDK was one year from BB, so that would be 31 in that one, and this film is 7 or 8 years since, so that puts him at either 38 or 39, and the doctor even mentions that his body was in poor shape, so I think Nolan made the right call by setting up for his retirement, possibly to set up a nightwing/robin movie or batman beyond, another hint to this would be Alfred telling Bruce that Gotham needed his mind and his resources not his body, which would allow Bruce to remain an important part of the batman story and allowing him to retire as well. which almost alligns him more with the batman beyond story line, being a mentor to a new generation of hero. any thoughts ????
if you remember back to batman begins, bruce wayne was hosting his 30th birthday party when wayne manor was ransacked by Ra’s Al Ghul and his men, im not 100% sure how long TDK takes place afterwards, a year or so, and TDKR takes place 8 years after that, so he’s about 40 when all is said and done.
In Batman Begins, Bruce celebrates his 30th birthday. Dark Knight Rises takes place 8 years after The Dark Kight, so he’s probably close to 40 by the end of the seires.
dude…..come on…..i don,t agree with your loopholes…only good point is how he get back to gotham…but then again..he is the Bruce wayne…he can do anything…and for selina…they have their things for each other in the movie…they even kiss before he go into thw bat…and for the bat signal..he made it…to tell everyone in gotham that he is back and that there is still hope..and for back…his one vertebrate is displaced..so he placed it back in place with a punch…for asking y she do that flip to break then…u should ask urdelf y r watching…i mean come on…he can,t break that with her hand only without any much power….she need more force provided by his body weight…..
In response to your concerns:
First, Wayne’s spine wasn’t broken; he had a bulged disc and it was punched back into place. That’s a recipe for longterm back problems, but it’s not implausible that it could “correct” the problem enough to allow someone who is in peak physical condition to function (albeit with a great deal of pain). But if anything has been reinforced throughout the series, Bruce is able to function with severe bruising, lacerations, concussions, and broken bones.
Second, it’s not important how he got back. Clearly there was a village/town near the prison, and it’s not difficult to imagine he could have stolen a vehicle, made his way to an airport, and then used his skills to sneak aboard a plane (well, multiple planes). If you can buy into the notion that he is supposed to be the greatest manhunter who has ever lived and one of the most resourceful, crafty, and stealthy human beings on the planet, why get hung up on his ability to make it from India to the U.S.? The journey could be completed in less than two days.
Third, again, it’s Batman; why wouldn’t you believe he could sneak back into Gotham past a military deploy? If he couldn’t, I guess he’s not as fantastic as we’ve accepted in the previous two films.
Fourth, Bane’s lines were pretty intelligible; you just have to calibrate your ears to his manner of speaking (which is true of anybody with an accent/garbled speech). There were only a couple of times I had trouble making him out, but I could say that about other pieces of dialogue as well.
Fifth, Selina Kyle isn’t very large. Doing the flip adds leverage and momentum, and if she wanted to send a signal to the rest of the inmates to back off, that’s a pretty good one. As we know from Batman, there’s a lot to be said for presentation when it comes to inflicting violence.
Sixth, Wayne and Kyle aren’t that different; and that point is made throughout the film. He clearly becomes sympathetic to why she does what she does, and when she offers her various jabs at wealth, apathy, class distinctions, etc., he has no witty reply. He internalizes her critique, just as Kyle internalizes his valor and breaks free of her cynicism and animosity. That “a ha” moment certainly comes during the riots in Gotham when she remarks, “This used to be somebody’s home…” People can change — they can grow — and both Wayne and Kyle grew up in this movie. In doing so, they also grew together. Good for them.
Another loophole was the take over of the stock market. It was middle of the day when Bane entered, they took off it was light out, and then Batman was chasing it became dark out. Bane even was told the download would take 8 minutes so they needed to go. When Batman gets the device it just completed the download.
Your first two concerns/questions are totally valid and I attribute those to the classic suspension of disbelief.
However, I’ll give my opinions on your other thoughts.
1) They weren’t necessarily his friends, but I think they admired his will to save Gotham so much that they decided to help him. Also the people who are paying/threatening them are a little busy in Gotham.
2)The punch/hit set the bone, but staying in the upright position for months (notice the change to winter in Gotham) is what healed it.
3)Eh… suspension of disbelief? This one is also difficult. The guy is a (former) billionaire, so I attributed his return to his (former) wealth and resources.
4)The Special Forces guys had no problem getting in. They only got found out because they were out in the open and working in a group. Bruce probably sneaked into Gotham in a truck, too.
5)Christopher Nolan tweaked the Bane voice so much over the course of production that I expect it to be totally fixed on blu-ray/DVD. It’s such a difficult thing to get 100% right. At times it was perfect, but I agree it was difficult at first.
6)Her hands were cuffed and there was a guard and a warden behind her. Plus what else can she do to the guy through that little hole in the cell without risking someone else grabbing her? Also, it looked awesome
7)The whole time Bruce/Batman said there was more to her than what she shows. On a personal note, I am so happy they ended up together. The chemistry between the characters (not to mention the Bale/Hathaway chemistry) was far more than Bruce and Rachel. I hated Rachel since she shut him down at the end of Begins even before she met Harvey Dent. She kept leading him on! Rachel believed in/loved Harvey the whole time. I’d explain more, but I hated Rachel too much to explain. Selina Kyle is a much better match for Bruce in personality, beliefs, etc. The criminal past thing isn’t a major issue because Bruce even said she was like Robin Hood. When everyone was in the mansion after Bane took over Gotham, she was the only one who remarked that it used to be a place where someone’s family lived. Notice she only stole luxury items (diamonds/necklaces) and had speeding tickets, and she felt stealing the place someone takes shelter every night is over the line. That was my longest answer because I thought Selina Kyle was one of the best characters in the whole trilogy. Also, Anne Hathaway is gorgeous and I fell in love with her…
People do horrible things when they think nobody is watching them or there are no consequences. However to answer your question, I assume most of those people were the thousand plus in prison along with Bane’s League of Shadows’ members. Also Bane was giving the people a chance/hope to survive by going along with his plan, and do horrible things, which unfortunately has happened many times in the real world.
I assume the signal was made out of a gel kind of like what was used to plant the bombs in TDK. That would stay in place and probably not take too long to apply. And given Gotham’s current state at that point, I think taking time to make that symbol made sense. People needed a sign of hope.
Perhaps because Bane keeps them down there, didn’t they say it was his prison now or something like that? People don’t usually follow the orders of their captures, at least not more than what is necessary to stay alive.
Yeah I don’t think that is the proper medical procedure but it kind of made sense. People pop their shoulders back in when it becomes dislocated, so if a disc pops out, I can understand popping it back in.
How did Bruce get from the desert to Gotham? It’s simple, he’s Batman.
There were some words I didn’t understand but that was true for some of the other actors too. I found Bane’s cleaned up voice in the prologue to be more distracting and less menacing.
She didn’t have to, but she wanted to.
Yeah I wouldn’t forgive someone who led me to what could have been my death so quickly but perhaps Bruce Wayne is a better person than me. We don’t really know the extent of their relationship at the end, maybe they were just having lunch before they both went their separate ways, but who knows, Catwoman and Batman’s relationship has always been different from what I would consider to be normal.
Joe1,
You mention that people wouldn’t rise up because a person in a mask told them to do so. Well, it is not too far from the truth. Almost all riots were started from an idea or some messed up individuals talking to them about how downtrodden they were. Look at the past year with the stupid “occupy movement” it basically became idiots leaving their belongings and living on the streets in tents to prove some point that they are downtrodden. So it fits in this image of Gotham.
Most of these aren’t actually plot holes. Plot holes are like how in the previous movie Batman leaves the Joker in a house full of rich people (that he would love to slaughter) to save Rachael Dawes, and yet the Joker apparently does nothing (or it’s never mentioned again). These are just things you don’t buy. But going through the things I can try to explain (which isn’t everything) 1) I don’t think those dudes in the prison were guards. I think that the prison didn’t need any guards as nobody could actually get out. How they ate is anybody’s guess though. Maybe some food is dropped in. Or they become cannibals. 2) He’s probably got the resources to find a phone and call in one of his planes. Like the one he used in Hong Kong in the last movie. 3) He got onto the island because he’s freaking Batman. He can get around military watch, and you kind of just have to go with that. 4) I don’t buy the ending. I think it was Nolan being ambitious. Personally I think he really does die and Alfred is seeing what he wants to see. We do see Ra’s talking to Batman, and we all know he’s dead. Immortality takes many forms. Nolan doesn’t just toss lines like that out there in his movies for no reason.
Ah~ You’ve missed all the points of the movie and rather spent time picking it apart?
Just a quick response to the Bane part.
This is because there is no revolution, it’s more like terrorism masked as a revolution with the subtext of Ra’s al Ghul’s original clan motives.
To level the city and start over because of the crime and hate and failure of society which is more subtext on our real world.
But, clearly Bane is more power driven and has his own agenda otherwise he would have just had the scientist immediately detonate the bomb if that were his only goal.
I have to say as I LOVE these movies and I want another your comments are hilarious as I get so caught up in the fun of the film I do not think to much about the plot holes. BUT you are right on in your questions. So I have one. WHo was Batman ( CB ) sitting with in the final scene where he is. Is that woman anyone for us to consider in the next film? It was NOT Catwoman.
agree, but you must allow some literary license. The thing that bothered me the most was…. 7 years?? He was a recluse, languishing over the death of Rachel, without Alfred telling him sooner? and letting Wayne Enterprises lose money, instead of finding a new “mission,” whether it be from a board room or on the streets? I didn’t like it. don’t think “my” Bruce Wayne would have lost direction THAT much. A couple years, maybe.
It also doesn’t fit with my idea (and that of the stories) that Batman is out there consistently, watching over Gotham, and (as BW) helping make sure charitable gifts and donations go to fund the right organizations. That whole beginning premise left me with a disappointed feeling. I can forgive the catwoman thing – I was already prepared for something like that, and I think they played the story as well as they could for her character.
As far as getting back to Gotham from the desert, he’s done that before – stowed away on freighters etc – he’s pretty resourceful.
LOL – I think he should have met a nice nurse who could a) handle weirdos b)stitch up his wounds and 3)bring a sense of practicality to his life (first order would be to explain to him that if Rachel couldn’t love him until he stopped being Batman, then she didn’t really love him -in that way- in the first place, which is what she finally figured out – and to get OVER her!) yup – a nice nurse – like me!
I also generally like these movies and everything you pointed out has been bugging me since I saw it. I was actually a little disappointed with the finale. For a two hour and forty-five minute movie it shifted from feeling slow to feeling rush never having an opportunity to grasp what is happening. Also I felt that the first fight between Batman and Bane could had been shorter, as it dragged out for at least a minute and a half. Another thing that irritated me was the bomb. Did it really need to be nuclear to create escalation in Gotham. I thought it wound have been better to dwell into the cement laced with explosives. Something like the infrastructure of Gotham being laid with this cement, and I mean in more places than what the cement had been used for already. I thought it would be more interesting than a nuclear core meltdown. Did you guys like the bomb?
The two dudes who were “assigned to torture” were actually the one assigned to keeping him alive (food, water, etc), and the other one a morphine addicted doctor who was hanging out in the medical word spouting advice.
Punching a severed spin wouldn’t fix it, but he didn’t have a severed spine. he had a dislocated disc. Bane may have thought he paralized him permanently, but dislocated discs don’t automatically mean “broken back.”
being resourceful, and an experienced world traveller, wayne probably wouldn’t have trouble getting back from anywhere, or into anywhere.
I misheard a few of Bane’s lines, but understood 90 percent. In real life no one would understand someone talking through that mask, so I’m glad Nolan didn’t for “100% realistic” on that point.
Because she’s catwoman, likes to do her flips, and after all surviving in prison is about image….if they believe you’re more badass, you’re a little more safe.
Yes I believe he’d stay with Selina, because he knew there was more to her than just stealing, he brought it up several times.
Because he’s the g******ed BATMAN.
But really those are some serious plot holes. Batman didn’t get the amount of screentime he deserved despite the movie being freakishly long.
We have no idea if they were “together” or just having a conversation as two people with a fresh start. I hope they weren’t “together” but, truthfully, a good ending should be left with some room for interpretation to bring out discussion and let people come to their own “conclusion” they think is right. I also read something from Chris Judge that Nolan gives a bit of this even for parts the actors play, freedom.
Also:
Bomb has 6 mile blast radius. Clock has 1.5 minutes left. The bat was travelling at 4 miles a minute????
Haha I’m 100% with you.
-Bane gave the speech, yes…but it wasn’t exactly the people listening and taking up Bane’s cause on their own, was it? It was more the mercenaries doing that to everybody, and the unarmed people going along with it so they wouldn’t get in trouble. Them mob mentality and the thrill of vengeance takes over and it picks up its own steam, leading to the wacked-out comic book “court” scenes. It’s true that without more catalysts it wouldn’t have worked out – the Joker tried it and failed.
-I also imagined him just taking his time wasting his hi-tech equipment to doodle on the bridge with a bucket of gas for a few hours while the town burns…silliness.
-Those guys weren’t exactly assigned to torture Wayne on their own; they were supposed to keep him alive. His torture was supposed to be pain plus the ‘torture of the soul’ – as in watching all the crap happen back in Gotham. But Wayne took care of that by throwing that rock at the screen. And besides them not being supposed to torture him themselves, they were all in the same situation, weren’t they? Imprisoned there by Bane; brothers through struggles.
And of course the usuals, like:
-Back-punch healing. I was also laughing at it: “*punch* *hang* Okay you’re fixed now.” But it was a commentary on Batman’s resilience and tenacity. Also it was good that they mentioned the misplaced vertebrae, which is basically like a slipped disc, which doesn’t always require high-tech surgery, or mean total paralysis. So, especially in a world where Nolan’s Batman exists and “beats criminals to a pulp with his bare hands”, I can let this slide.
-As far as getting back into the city…honestly doubt it’s very hard. HE’S THE BATMAN. But as Bruce Wayne from the desert…he does has connections everywhere. Before he was Batman he traveled the whole world with just the clothes on his back, right? As far as into the city…well honestly it’s a couple hundred meters of water. Not much that a single person trained in blending in with darkness can’t overcome in the middle of the night, maybe with a dark inflatable raft. Especially if this person is Batman.
-I always figured Catwoman loved to show off in front of the bad boys. Plus, although she’s skilled, it would take pure brute force to break the guy’s arms. Just standing there, she would probably not be able to pull it off. But with the force that the weight of her entire body generates, then there we go – broken prisoner wrists.
-As far as their relationship: Selina Kyle is a career criminal, yeah. But the part of her character development revealed that beneath all of that crime – gritty survival, even – she’s just as noble and broken as he is, which resonates a lot with him both as Batman and Bruce Wayne. Also, I’ll write what I wrote earlier, that justifies Bruce Wayne loving Selina Kyle:
If you want to look at it from a character perspective, look at Bruce Wayne’s character arc: Finds a love of his life, loses her (in two ways – socially to Harvey Dent and his ‘normal’ lifestyle, and literally/finally to death). Finds Miranda Tate, loses her in multiple ways – (socially: he never had her because she was always against him; emotionally: lost what he thought he had upon betrayal, and literally: she also dies.) But then we have Selina Kyle – his female parallel and opposite, who forms a balance and is loyal despite leanings to the opposite. She is ‘trapped’ in the trouble of leading the costumed life, and they both want an escape. She also begs him to leave with her multiple times. As costumed vigilantes in need of companions and escape, they are perfect for each other, and their differences complement and balance each other out.
Joe 1,, you are definitely right about those plot holes. There seems to be much confusion regarding those and how Bruce managed to pull all those. I too despite all these liked the movie and really consider it an epic ending. But my biggest question lies here, neither Christian Bale nor Christopher Nolan is interested to add another sequel to this series, then why on earth did Christopher Nolan mention the name of Robin at the end and why did he show Bruce again (even though he went down with a nuclear explosion, he still survives)? This make me think that Batman will come again with Robin as his sidekick in the next sequel made by Nolan.
I agree completely with the whole “class warfare” concept: poorly executed. No citizens of a city, however deprived, would back a psycho who just blew up their football team! Aggravating! Some other leaps of logic I found:
The terrorists have the city for 3+ months? And no sniper(s) bother to shoot these guys? The remaining police wait until the day of the explosion to march a resistance? What? The U.S. government decides not to intervene because of the threat of a nuclear bomb? Very, very poorly executed.
And about the Bane character himself and the “revelation” that he was the child’s protector, who basically sacrificed his life to save hers: no matter how bad he is, I’m expected to believe that he is willing to exterminate at least a million kids with a bomb?
I really enjoyed the rest of the movie. The visuals were great, Bruce, Alfred, and Gormon came full circle, but the whole terrorist plot was a sloppy mess, and really tarnished my enjoyment of the experience!
As Ra’s said “Create enough hunger and everyone becomes a criminal.”
The citizens of Gotham were hungry and desperate, at the threat of losing their loved ones, Banes takeover quickly became an ‘If you can’t beat em join em’ scenario’ as well as a ‘take what you can get’ scenario. As much as I appreciate you talking for humanity as a whole, most people aren’t decent people so sorry to say but if a similar scenario played out in real life (martial law) this is probably what would happen, no matter the reason. Also most of ‘Banes army’ consisted of members of The League Of Shadows and Blackgate prisoners who were released. Most of the middle to lower class families stayed in their homes waiting for evacuation, while the upper class got looted.
You ask why snipers didn’t take Bane out during his ‘occupation’ of Gotham as though he were just standing in the middle of the road all day with a bulls-eye on his head, Gotham is a big city (about the same size of Chicago) and Bane was always moving to different locales when he wasn’t underground. The police resistance march only happened on the day the bomb was supposed to blow because all the police were trapped underground until that day (don’t know how you missed that one).
The U.S. government would not intervene until they had a surefire way of disarming the bomb before detonation, otherwise why would they risk millions of lives as well as a chunk of their own military forces.
This last one really bugged me, Bane was pretty much the embodiment of evil and made the goals of Ra’s Al Gul his own, so yes you are expected to believe that he was willing to take millions of lives regardless of their age, including his own, which he came very close to accomplishing.
Maybe you should give the movie another watch before you deem it a ‘sloppy, poorly executed mess’, personally this was my favorite of the trilogy, and all these ‘plot holes’ that people are yammering on about just don’t make any sense to me, but I guess that’s just one mans opinion
I agree with you on this point. We have a great military presence with superior firepower. They sent in “special forces” to talk but not to infiltrate the city and assassinate Bane, his henchmen, or anyone else? Kinda lame. That’s really the worst part of the whole plot. Side note: Where did the motorcycles even come from during the stock exchange scene? Bane & his cronies just burst out the doors on motorcycles, how did they get them inside the building?
Because he is a member of the league of shadows. He would protect Talia, but he would carry out his mission to destroy Gotham. That’s his whole point of existence.
Modestinus you said it all and I agree with you.
Actually, he had a dislodged vertebrae, not a disc. Disc refers to the supporting tissue around the vertebrae I believe.
Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate your points, a lot of them good ones. I didn’t mean to nitpick, I guess I just expected perfection out of Nolan which set the standard too high.
I do still think, as myself and many others have stated, that the portrayal of the people of Gotham as a sensless mob who would, at the drop of a hat, follow a random terrorist’s wishes to complete violence and literal class warfare, was pretty weak.
This is my understanding as well. I don’t think we are supposed to imagine him creating a new suit and becoming a superhero under his real name…he is the new Batman, and the name is just a shout out. He became the understudy instead of the sidekick.
Finally, someone gets it. Of course it isn’t robin.
Finally, someone gets it. Of course it isn’t robin. It’s just someone BW gets to take over as Batman
One of the movie’s biggest issues is it’s time compression.The stock market robbery and Wayne getting back to Gotham were heavily compressed.
And exactly where did those motorcycles come from?!
Kyle I appreciate your counterpoints and will definitely give the movie another watch sometime. Glad there are others who thoroughly enjoyed the movie. Although I still feel that the writers tried to bite off more than they could chew with the terrorist plot, I will take your points into consideration the next time I watch it. Hopefully it will be this four hour version people are talking about because I really want to like this movie as much as you and others did. Have a nice day.
What John Blake? Blake was never Robin in the comics, in fact he was a very obscure background character in the book that only showed up a few times.
Not really. I’m pretty sure he would be Nightwing.
That was absolutely, 100 % Anne Hatheway. So she wasn’t wearing red lipstick so that means it wasn’t her? Watch her smile as she turns her head. I have. Three times.
It was Catwoman.
It WAS Catwoman. I looked carefully during both viewings.
I’m happy with this movie….I think the “mad genius gone evil” role has been overplayed in the Batman movies anyway
not true–the studios wanted that but Nolan didn’t.
I am afraid this is something Leo could not pull off compared to Ledger. I have yet to see him in a role that deep.
Joe Shmo, I’m agree about that..!! (y)
you can still kick butt at 40, if you stay in shape. His techniques are not just physical, but strategic
The funny thing is, is that he did both XD. Just not in that order ha
thats a nice touch
I don’t think he died. Towards the end he got the auto pilot to work. It says in the end he got it to work.
I was kind of expecting Batman to take out some Navy SEALS the way he took out the SWAT Teams in the Dark Knight; it would certainly have made for a very intense scene, as Bane would have been willing to destroy the city if they’d gotten anywhere near him.
Bane established that the controller to the bomb , the detonator is not with him but someone else and on any interference the trigger man will click it.
The motorcycles ? seriously ? how did they did people working inside the stock building and having those weapons , bane brought no guns with him did he ? is it not plausible that motorcycles would have been moved in prior to ths actual attack ? Bane knew the fiber would be cut he was expecting it, he had planned everything , he had a wireless dongle for connectivity. Its not that hard to imagine that everything was planned.
Well he did say that the way to really make people despair is to give them hope. By dragging it out until the bomb inevitably blows up was the whole point of the exercise. That way, the outside world hopes that it can be resolved the longer it goes on, and then it doesn’t. That would be more of a blow to society than just setting off the bomb right away.
to AttmeptedAnswers:agree with a lot. but don’t be too hard on rachel – I used to feel that way too. I think she thought she was in love with Bruce on some level, and when Harvey turned himself in she realized how much she loved him. The love she and Bruce had was more like a presumed love since they had grown up together and knew each other so well. The love of familiarity and closeness from years of friendship. They mistook it for romantic love.If she had really lovedhim, the bat thing wouldn’t've mattered. Something was always holding her back, and in the end she realized that it was because it wasn’t the marrying kind of love. Just wish Alfred had told him sooner – in TDK I thought that it was unfair of him to hold that back. 8 years is a long time. But, if he had told him sooner, he’d be young enough to do more batman stuff without retiring – and they would’ve had to have made a 4th movie to end it!
I think Fox did the bat sign on the building, or maybe Selina
Black Mask and Deadshot
They COULD make Mr Freeze into the next villain, make him have a sick wife, getting fired, going insane, no money whatsoever, and have him build a suit that protects him from liquid nitrogen and a gun that shoots it.
I would love to see what happened in the 8 years before TDKR right after TDK. I doubt that after he fell (killing Dent) and running away, he would have that limp like he did at the beginning of the film. Maybe it is because of a different villain? Deadshot? Freeze? Riddler? Strange?
Onimiapia? I think if done correctly, he could be REALLY creepy.
yeah, the 8 year stretch of nothing was a bit much for me, too. wanted to at least be aable to imagine there was more batman, and more BW, in the life of Gotham City. Didn’t like the “you’re home from college, disappear for 7 years (which was OK), you’re here for a year, you’re shut off for 8, then you show up for another couple months, then you’re gone again.” Seen too exaggerated from the original Batman intent. But makes for a great movie. I thnk it’s hard because of all the emotional investment we’ve all put into the Bat over these decades. Chris Nolan really brought that back for a lot of people, including me.
I imagine when Bane came in and went psycho in the exchange they could have brought the motorcycles in just after him.
For those of you wondering how Batman could have survived a nuclear explosion you must remember the first bombs the US dropped were in slow old propeller driven bombers that flew no faster than 365 mph max with a cruising speed of 220. These pilots survived those blasts. Why is it so hard to think Batman wouldn’t survive this one? Plus the Batman bomb is a Neutron with a kill radius of 6 miles. That does not mean the explosion/devastation is also a 6 mile radius. By design a Neutron bomb is designed to kill life and not necessarily destroy buildings, etc….
The 6 mile radius refers to long term exposure/death and not necessarily a Bat speeding away at several hundred miles an hour.
BTW the autopilot was also functional so even if he left the Bat to blowup with the bomb he could have ejected far from it at the shoreline, etc….
No this is not what happened, Bane’s dream was crashing because Ma was just crazy and sabotaging it like she sabotages everything so like Leo, Batman enters Alfred’s dream in the end to finally go to Florence to go to some mysterious cafe and live a peace dream. The pre-explosion to the final explosion was the kick he needed to enter that last dream. How good was Bane’s dream? well it was REAL GOOD I mean that’s the primary reason why Bain was really taking all those drugs to stay under for so long and do so well. He created a series of Mazes under ground and just really created an EXCELLENT dream.
The atomic bombs dropped on Japan were let loose from 30,000+ feet, and even then they needed parachutes to slow their descent enough to give the B-29 crews a chance to get away.
Batman was 30 feet above the water, and 20 feet from the bomb when it went off…a very different scenario. He would have been vaporized.
And for the 1000th time, no, he didn’t eject. There is a close up of the Bat with BW at the controls only seconds before detonation.
For the 1001st time, he did eject and was alive at the end.
For that one person who, somehow, believed Adam West was in the masquerade ball scene, nope.
Bane revealed to have been working with/for Talia does NOT lessen his importance or his “badass” status…he was her friend and protector, BUT he showed, quite clearly, that he was intelligent and just as dedicated to the idealogical (and physical) destruction of Gotham…and a hell of a combatant.
Whether Blake becomes Batman 2.0, Robin-in-more-than-mere-name (doubtful…that was the point), Nightwing, or someone else entirely does not matter, ultimately. His hero and recent inspiration has given him the means to begin his own crusade against future injustice. Will Bruce ever contact him secretly (or even return secretly) to give pointers or training? No one can say for certain (personally, I doubt it), but the possibility at least exists.
Batman, as I said in another thread, IS in the film at least as much as Bruce. He is constantly discussed, dwelled upon, drawn (symbolically), and even used as inspiration throughout the film…and all of this besides the ACTUAL physical presence of Bruce in the suit. Batman is meant to be a symbol as much as a man in a costume…
For my part, I found the film to be a brilliant film and an excellent close to a brilliant CBM series. If you do not agree (or simply enjoy nitpicking, often ridiculously and just outright incorrectly, for the pure pleasure of it), that is your right. Enjoy.
Kid, I hate to drag logic into this, but when exactly do you think he ejected? We see him at the controls 5 or 10 seconds before the bomb blows..if I understand it right, you are saying Batman ejected during that 10 second period, and then magically cleared the blast radius? How do you propose he did that? Honestly, give an answer here..not one person from the “Batman lives” school of thought has been able to do that yet.
I know you won’t have an answer. However, understand that some of us don’t watch these films as if they were Harry Potter. We aren’t 15 years old. It’s understandable that we’d have a problem with a plot hole of this magnitude. It makes no sense..unless Bruce bring seen alive was a fantasy. Then it all works.
Mco, I agree with you 100% and had the same thought ever since the movie ended. People can’t handle grief, apparently even in a movie, so they make justifications to themselves to get a happy ending. Showing Bruce Wayne alive at the end is just a catalyst for those people to walk out of the movie thinking everything is alright. Bruce is dead and the final scene is a great scene showing Alfred figuring out how to cope with Bruce’s death and being able to go on with his life. Everyone who tries to prove otherwise keeps thinking up plotholes and conflicting evidence to prove he’s alive, even when Nolan gave plenty of evidence earlier in the movie to suggest the simple conclusion.
The bigger question, I think, is did Lucious Fox die? It never showed him die or escape and he wasn’t at the funeral. Someone mentioned that it was a private funeral. If it was, then why would John Blake be there and not Lucious. The truth to that question is just personal interpretation, I guess.
Mco and Mr.Carr…
Actually, we see Bruce in the cockpit with no timestamp; THEN, we see the bomb timer at 5 seconds as a separate scene. The Bat flies off into the distance, and the bomb explodes. Afterwards, we see a few scenes that establish that Bruce has survived, including the scene of him with Selina in Italy…a scene that is presented COMPLETELY differently (concretely, as opposed to ethereally) from the hallucination Bruce had in the pit or Alfred’s earlier recounting of his hopeful vision for Bruce’s future.
You may not like it, but Bruce’s survival is the fact of the film’s presentation of concluding scenes…plainly shown.
Now, the ONE conceit is that this is comic book pseudo-realism, since (let’s face it) Bruce likely would have been shot dead the first couple of weeks (days?) of his crusade as Batman OR would have already been outed as his alter ego well before this eight-year gap OR would have been arrested and/or committed years ago in OUR reality. The audience accepts that these things did not occur, so this final dramatic event fits in just as logically.
By the way, I’m neither a child/teenager, nor am I slow in any way, so you would do well to drop the moronic condescension and talk with people here as if you deserve to have the opportunity.
Oh, and Mr. Carr: You might consider actually WATCHING the film you choose to criticize…or rather, choose to agree (fawningly? Hmmm) has been correctly criticized by someone who provides no more accurate or, in fact, better support for his own view of the film than those to whom he has talked down. This observation is based on the FACT (there’s that magical word again) that Mr. Fox is shown in the scene revealing that Bruce fixed the auto-pilot. This scene was AFTER his escape from the flooding reactor chamber. In other words, your “bigger question” is a non-issue.
…just some things for you two to consider.
was he really in THE bat cockpit during the last 5 seconds? Shot too close to tell.
Damn it, man. YES, we DID see Batman as the pilot 5 seconds before the bomb went off but did you, Mr. Smarty, also see the passing shadows on his face? Does water create that in the middle of the bay where there are no buildings etc. whatsoever? Of course not. The last Batman shot was taken when he was still flying past the buildings (that’s where the shadows on his face came from). And the reason why they showed that shot together with the 5 second timer shot was to tell us that Batman as a Symbol was dead. Bruce Wayne was still alive and very probably ejected when he made the clime over a high building. Tough you think you are very mature you can’t analyze it on a little higher level then just obvious. This film was NOT Inception and even if Alfred imagined the cafe thing then explain how the Bat-Signal was magically repaired, Blake got his “gadget” bag (you really think that BW assembled it in the middle of the Gotham battle?) and why was the damn autopilot shown repaired BY BRUCE WAYNE? He didn’t have anything against dieing but he was not a suicidal mainiac. It’s all not just on the obvious level. And about Inception: Nolan told that the ending was how YOU wanted it to be. There was no clear ending that was right.
While I choose not to involve myself in the “Is Bruce Wayne Alive” debate (it mostly just seems to be people stating what they think happened and ending with claiming anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot), I don’t quite understand where you’re having trouble figuring out if Lucious survived or not. He was in an entire scene after the funeral! He was talking to scientists at Wayne Enterprises.
“the auto-pilot” is the key thing. If Batman was meant to be dead at the end, then the auto-pilot references would be pointless. Not the way Nolan works though, everything serves a purpose.
My only gripe with this film, which I loved, was that I saw that ending coming a mile away. As soon as Alfred initially tells Bruce of his holidays in Florence and we cut to see Alfred at that location, boom!, I knew the ending. – Bruce would be thought dead but would reappear to re-unite with Alfred who would look over and probably see Bruce with a wife and even some kids -. Though seeing him with Selina instead was the bigger surprise for me, as I had been intently trying to see who was with him during that scene.
Why would Nolan include that flash back to the actual location of Alfred on holiday in Florence if it wasn’t going to service something, I thought? Alfred discussing it would have been one thing, but once they cut away to him on location, it was obviously setting something up.
The Talia ruse was still effective on me despite two things that should have given it away but didn’t, a testament to the film makers talent for misdirection, imo.
Firstly, the young Talia actress looked sufficiently different in the film compared to her casting shot, to escape my questioning it was young Talia down that pit, and not Bane.
Secondly, Bane states to Batman that he never saw light until he was a man, but we see the young boy staring up at the sky in the pit flashbacks, however, confronted with this contradiction i resigned myself to the notion that Bane must have just been over-embellishing.
Miranda Tate (she’s quite lovely) was given enough love interest build up to make me believe she was going to be the one with Bruce in that final end scene with Alfred and maybe some kids. I think that is what kept me off the scent. Cotillard gave a great performance.
All in all, well played Mr. Nolan, just like Inception, you delivered something completely different from what I had been anticipating, yet the story you told was much more rich and rewarding than anything I could have predicted. Awesome film, awesome trilogy.
Absolutely loved the ending with ‘Robin’ in the cave. Pitch note perfect.
Sambo…
I absolutely agree…and THANK YOU for your well-reasoned explanation where you spelled things out (unfortunately, a necessity). I and others have been trying to give our own takes and apply similar streams of logic to the film and its conclusion, but you (rightly) clarified the ending in a concise, simplified format.
Bravo!
Thanks Arch, I’m gonna miss Nolan’s Batman films.
My biggest disappointment is that this is the closing chapter, and a beautiful one at that, but a part of me wishes it was number 6 in a dual trilogy of films, rather than number 3 in a single trilogy. I really would have enjoyed seeing Nolan pitting his younger Bats against various rogues gallery villains for the first time, before he delivered this epic conclusion (although in risking over-saturation, it’s probably best he didn’t).
On the bright side however, I now look forward to what Nolan will tackle next, and in which direction the studios will choose to take Batman without him, with an eye towards an established DCMU.
“Bomb has 6 mile blast radius. Clock has 1.5 minutes left. The bat was travelling at 4 miles a minute????”
You’re kidding me right? You don’t think that The Bat can travels 240 miles/hour? How fast do you think planes and other flying vehicles travel?
4 miles a minute is only 240 miles per hour… Modern aircraft, fully loaded, can easily exceed that…
He used the auto-pilot function to fake his death. Why else would Bruce lie about it not being fixed, not once, but twice, in the hours leading up to his presumed death?
I’m sure people will get it more easily once they can take a copy home. Cinema viewings can be too distracting, ‘you can’t savor all the little…’ details.
haha, nice joker reference, lol.
The movie goers who don’t have a very good knowledge of the Batman universe would not know who Dick Grayson is. It’d be for them “Who’se Dick Grayson?” If they hear Robin: “OMG! Batman’s sidekick!”
No, sadly he is dead in my opinion!
I am of the theory that it is completely humanly impossible for him to be anywhere near the blast and survive. I think they only real time he could have done auto pilot was after he shot down the building as the slope was too high to maneuver.
It all links in the prison when his self conscious talks to him in form of Raz-algould. The line of most importance “Immortality can take many forms”.. Im going with that this idea was already there it was just waiting to simmer to the top at that point. Wayne already knew the score and he knew wasn’t going to make it, but he also knew that the legacy had to carry on in some way even if it was without him. I’m recycling some peoples comments but having yourself be dead if finite but if your symbol lives on it becomes myth…thus in my opinion you become immortal. At the new agent for Gotham’s protector is nightwing/robin to carry on the living myth of batman.
So im thinking Alfred was smoking some grief crack by seeing Wayne in Florence. What type of person would just nod and smile after a strained event like that? wouldnt yu talk to one another… hug or the like?
I think it is too good to be true because Alfred’s dream for seeing Wayne like that in Florence was pre-batman, not post-batman. Im sure a happy ending would look very different from something already fed to us
My only gap is explaining the missing pearls. Wayne did take it back from her. Did she go back to take a keep stake to remember him by?
At the end, Lucius (?) asked if he could’ve done anything to the bat (the flying vehicle), to help batman. The engineers said the auto-pilot was fixed “six months ago”, much to his (pleasant) suprise. This is the one clue, even if you believe Alfred and Wayne in the café was a flashback, that pretty much guarantees that he jumped off it at some point.
Seeing him in the café afterwards, he has the correct hair, as well as catwoman sitting opposite him. He also greets him properly, he doesn’t just turn his head a little, as in the previous telling of that story.
I went back and looked at it now, and the first time it’s shown, it’s not even Wayne sitting in the story that he tells Wayne, it’s someone else – although this might be an oversight on the part of the filmmakers, since the scene is very short.
Clearly, Batman (Wayne) is now taking a much needed vacation, moving on from the problems that previously plauged him, and the next movie in this series will be about Robin, as it ended with him discovering all the hidden crimefighting toys (presumably) in the cave. He was also told to get a mask, by Batman, but we never see this. We are told for sure, though, that his “full name” includes “Robin”.
Sequel ending if I ever saw one. Batman’s probably going to be back in a few movies at the most, though.
The question I have is this:
If The Bat Glider was carrying the bomb, how did The Bat Glider survive the blast?
Lucious Fox was looking at The Bat AFTER it carried the bomb and the bomb went off when he learned the auto-pilot was fixed 6 months prior.
Anyone thought of that?
Nolan either put it as a flashback or Batman had multiple units of The Bat.
Alfred seeing Selina with Bruce (please note that Selina is always fuzzy for a reason) is a good point to bring out. How could Alfred know who Selina was to imagine her? Or is that a Nolan “Inception -like” ending?
Very good discussion. Great movie!