David S. Goyer Talks a ‘Cohesive’ DC Universe and Not Emulating Marvel

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Wonder Woman Batman Superman David S. Goyer Talks a Cohesive DC Universe and Not Emulating Marvel

Warner Bros. is both expanding and organizing its DC film and television universe with upcoming projects The Flash – a direct spinoff of the Arrow TV show – and the Man of Steel sequel, tentatively known as Batman vs. Superman, which is going to introduce versions of Batman and Wonder Woman that exist in the same world as Henry Cavill’s Kal-El/Clark Kent. Many people watching all this from a distance have argued that WB is, in no uncertain terms, clearly emulating Marvel Studios’ approach to brand-building – and, to be fair, that’s a fairly persuasive and reasonable argument to make, given that Marvel’s recent financial success is undoubtedly the envy of other studios.

The Marvel Movie/TV Universe maintains continuity between its big screen and small screen installments alike; if something major happens in the Marvel films, then it directly impacts any related characters or events on TV (see: how this week’s episode on ABC’s Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. TV show will tie-in with developments in the newly-released Captain America: The Winter Soldier). Of course, the question as to whether or not Warners and DC ought to replicate the Marvel Studios’ formula for success with the architecture of its own movie/TV universe – that’s an issue we’ve debated many a time in the past (including, on the Screen Rant Underground Podcast).

20th Century Fox is starting over on its Fantastic Four movie franchise and is looking to instill new life into the X-Men film series through this year’s X-Men: Days of Future Past, with assistance from creative talents like director Bryan Singer and screenwriter Simon Kinberg. Similarly, Sony has put together its own “brain trust” of creative talent to oversee the expansion of its rebooted Spider-Man property The Amazing Spider-Man, with this year’s Amazing Spider-Man 2 laying the foundation for solo vehicles featuring Spidey anti-hero Venom and the villainous Sinister Six – the latter of which is being written and directed by Drew Goddard, who’s also working on Marvel’s Daredevil Netflix series, by (probably not a) coincidence.

That is to say, Marvel Studios’ “Shared Universe” approach has certainly influenced how other studios are now playing the superhero/comic book movie game, though neither Fox nor Sony’s Marvel universe-building tactics are a direct copy-cat of the Marvel Studios technique. Filmmaker David S. Goyer, who wrote Man of Steel and co-wrote Batman vs. Superman, has likewise suggested that while WB might want to bring the tidiness of the Marvel-world to its DC-verse, they’re not necessarily going to rehash Marvels’ formula step-for-step either.

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Goyer has been collaborating with WB for years now and recently signed a formal three-year deal with the studio, which helped to lock him down while he essentially serves as the (technically, unofficial) overseer on the new wing(s) of the DC universe. It was during an interview with IGN that Goyer offered his thoughts on the possibility of future DC show connecting to upcoming DC movies, similar to what Marvel Studios is doing:

I mean, it’s too early. I know that Warner Bros. would love to make their universe more cohesive. There have been a lot of general conversations about that, but it’s really, really early. I’m not sure. Marvel has had enormous success, but I’m not sure that everybody should try to emulate them either. It’s just been vague conversations so far.

It’s already clear that the DC universe won’t be structured exactly like the Marvel Cinematic Universe, given that the new Batman (Ben Affleck) and Wonder Woman (Gal Gadot) are crossing over with Man of Steel‘s Superman before they’re even given their own solo vehicles. Similarly, recent DC projects like Man of Steel and Arrow have very much skirted the thin line between fantasy and sci-fi genre elements, yet are by and large are grounded in sci-fi mechanics (read: non-magic) like Marvel’s film/TV universe – yet with upcoming ventures like the Constantine TV series and the Sandman movie, both of which feature Goyer in a creative capacity, the DC universe is headed deep into fantasy territory.

Admittedly, Marvel Studios has begun to open the doors so that it might organically incorporate characters that have supernatural abilities and use magic into its films and future TV programs. However, during the same interview Goyer told IGN that “I’m trying to branch off with Sandman,” indicating that he’s not, per se, striving to make Joseph Gordon-Levitt’s adaptation of Neil Gaiman’s comic fit together smoothly with Zack Snyder’s vision of the world occupied by Superman, Batman and other Justice League members (or any other DC properties, for that matter).

Sandman Movie Joseph Gordon Levitt Update David S. Goyer Talks a Cohesive DC Universe and Not Emulating Marvel

All things considered, it’s arguably encouraging to hear Goyer shoot down the idea that WB and DC will play the same game as Marvel Studios. Marvel and DC comic book properties are very different beasts, so it doesn’t necessarily seem all that wise to use the same approach to organize them while adapting them into live-action form. Besides, as profitable as Marvel’s shared-universe has been thus far, it’s also had its share of shortcomings from a creative perspective, which just goes to show: there’s not yet been a way to play the superhero movie game that’s been proven to be perfect.

Would you like to see a more “cohesive” DC universe, in terms of the various films and TV shows? Or do you think that WB and DC should keep things more separate, rather than attempt and link everything together in a manner that resembles the Marvel Studios approach?

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Batman vs. Superman is currently scheduled to open in U.S. theaters on May 6th, 2016.

Source: IGN

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TAGS: arrow, batman vs superman, constantine, green lantern, justice league, man of steel, the flash, wonder woman

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  1. This quote:

    “I mean, it’s too early. I know that Warner Bros. would love to make their universe more cohesive. There have been a lot of general conversations about that, but it’s really, really early. I’m not sure. Marvel has had enormous success, but I’m not sure that everybody should try to emulate them either. It’s just been vague conversations so far.”

    Does not instill confidence they know what they want to do. I hope for the best, as I love all CMB’s, buy WB/DC needs to get their plan solidified before half-arsing it.

    • I know what you mean.

      “Too Early” WTF!!!! How can he say that, by the time Bats v Supes is out in 2016 it’ll have been what 4 years since MoS and that movie must of took at least 18months to have prepped and shot so you’re looking at a nearly 6 YEAR gestation on how WB/DC wanted to move things forward after Nolan had finished his Batman opus.

      They should of been thinking about it 2009 after both The Dark Knight and IM1 did ace box office and critical and general acclaim. That was the green light that NOW (i.e. 2009) was the time of the CBM. X-Men and Spidy got things rolling but we had the hiccup third acts.

      Someone over at WB & DC needs to grow a set of stones and take a crack at it.

      Looks like Bats v Supes might be that crack, a spring board of cameos that may feed into solo movies…. a Marvel Reverse if you will (solos = Team up – Marvel, Team up-ish = solos – DC/WB)

      Only thing is will they have missed the boat, yes I hyped at the moment about having Bats and Supes AT THE SAME TIME :) :) but in 6-12months it’ll be meh!!! and I’m worried that I might not get the hype back…. Cap3 might nick it all as Marvel keep giving us stuff to get excited about.

      • Yeah!!!
        I mean Marvel started theirs right after Spiderman was released!!!….. Oh wait…no they didn’t…

        Marvel worked because they had time to introduce each character with a solo movie, and Iron Man to anchor them to.

        Nolan’s Batman trilogy was not designed to be a chess piece in a revenue machine like Marvel, it was one of those, what do you call them… stories. A plot, a purpose, introduction and conclusion.
        Batman/Superman is their starting point,their IronMan, so there’s no point talking about the big plan for every DC character to join in, just for the sake of having them there.

        You’ve already got Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman in the first movie, just relax and see how that goes before you ask them to throw everyone in just for the sake of matching Marvel.

      • It is too early. Think about it, the only two characters thus far are Superman and Batman with Batman having more of a concrete movie series going. Superman was back and forth. The other members are non-existent. You should be more worry IF they decide to make it very cohesive and just mash superheroes together in order to catch up to Marvel. I rather they have a plan then going in scratching their heads.

      • Jonathan – totally get your point.

        But consider this, WB/DC are already creating a shared universe in Batman/Superman/WW. Goyer might be playing his cards close to his chest regarding what is in the works but I do think it would be healthy for us as fans to let go of the expectation that they will emulate Marvel’s strategy which culminates in a Avengers style Justice League. That doesn’t mean we won’t get a JL movie, but we simply won’t see the same build up.

        If BvsS does the big “B”, then I think we’ll have a good chance to get a green light for JL to be released in 2020-ish.

    • Agreed. This has been one of DC’s main problems from the jump. They always seem so timid in regards to this.

    • Doesn’t seem that way to me at all.

      As a creative person myself (writing, painting, music to name just three things I’m involved in), I know exactly where Goyer’s coming from.

      What he’s basically saying is that WB are waiting to see how the new movie fares before diving head first into it because while people could point out MOS, the fact is that was just a solo movie and a test to see if the properties could potentially branch off from that platform if it succeeded just enough. Otherwise, it could’ve just been a standalone flick and not the start point of a joint universe of properties.

      You don’t want to pump billions into several projects in advance, only to have your first shot at it fail cause then you’ve already paid money to get other things going and it’s too late to back out without being branded a failure and losing trust in fans and audiences.

    • But has Marvel really been so “successful”? All we have to go on is jacked up Box-Office numbers. When they do TV shows they flop, which is why they cleverly went to Netflix where no real numbers will interfere with their PR.

      As for David S. Goyer, he’s a terrible writer and director, which is apparently the inescapable qualification is you want Hollywood to genuflect in front of you.

      • True you are totally correct, besides Marvels cinematic universe, everything else has been a flop. Now obviously everybody has their own preferences, likes, interest and opinion which is totally fine. But can you honestly say marvel has not be “so successful? The “jacked up Box-office numbers” do speak for themselves. While I am more of a DC fan comic wise and cinematic, Marvel Studios specifically has been making the money sign since starting their MCU(Marvel Cinematic Universe)back in 2008 with the first Iron Man. I mean would you rather watch Green Lantern or Iron Man 2(my opinion the weakest MCU movies. Not saying it’s bad, just my least liked)

        • I’m not sure one can define all one other thing as “everything else”. Sure, it’s a technically true statement, but it’s still only one other thing,

          • Very true with that statement.

          • How about “everything else” outside of Marvels Studios cinematic universe has either been a flop per say, or not up to par with the movies? Would that be fair to say? Granted everybody has their own personal opinions which is totally fine.

            • At present, that “everything else” outside of Marvels Studios cinematic universe is, as I said, one solitary show. Nothing else currently exists. It would likely be more fair to say not up to par, but I’ll guarantee you the same will be true of the other shows they currently have in development because they aren’t films and won’t have a film budget.

              • True, and hopefully they can work on improving their shows outside of the MCU, but it’ll be hard without a bigger budget.

        • Well, it’s almost impossible to speak about the actual success of a movie anymore. Actually not “almost” but “totally impossible unless you have access to the real box-office numbers, which of course none of us do.

          I can only judge by the only reliable numbers we still have, which are the Nielsens, and I find it amazing that those supposed mega-hits fail to bring mega Tv audiences to an audience supposedly demanding to see more…

          Same thing for Joss Whedon whose every TV show was low-rated but suddenly is a “hit film-maker”.

          Given all that money inevitably fails to find its way to the bottom line and worst offender Paramount was even sued by its private investors to try and recover their original investment (not the profits) from supposed hits like Star Trek, Transformers and Mission Impossible (the impossible mission is get a studio to hand your investment back!) I really don’t trust any supposed success.

          Sadly journalists act like those “estimates” are real and thus most people assume journalists checked their sources (they don’t) and they’re real numbers.

  2. Lets see how many DC bashers we get in here.

    • So what if I’m a DC basher? What can you do, D*ck Chimp? Hehehe DC.

  3. I seriously think that DC should have its own movie studio, just like Marvel did back in 2008.

    It will still be a subsidiary of WB. But DC should have creative freedom on production and casting, WB just handles the promos & distribution (domestic & overseas).

    Another option would be Licensing their characters movie rights to other studios. Just reminder that DC characters are not just superheroes, there are also Vertigo Comics characters also Wildstorm Comics characters. I would love to see a Stormwatch movie or Grifter movie.

    • I’ve been thinking about this for the past few days. I’d agree with you that the conglomerate Warner company is the biggest obstacle to DC shelling out films and creating a shared universe. Sure, Marvel now has that in Disney, but Marvel Studios had its formula down pat before a parent company stepped in.

      Goyer’s quotes about “vague conversations” just makes me imagine a room full of Warner corporate cats who are too focused on the dollar signs than giving fans what they want.

      • And the irony of that is that if they give the fans (mostly) what they want they’ll turn out in droves and they’ll get their dollar signs.

        Nolan’s Bats did awesome box office and it is and will forever be a generations definitive Batman so it’s not like they don’t have access to talent.

        Yes they got burned on GL, MoS has it’s detractors as well as it’s supporters (me, I like it) but it still did decent numbers.

        And as DC Fanboy mentioned the don’t have to focus on Superheroes, they’ve got a wide range of characters and sub-comic brands that they can (and have previously) draw off.

        • +DC fanboy, totally agreed. While I am more of a DC fan comic wise and cinematic, DC needs their own “Kevin Feige” like Marvel has for Marvel Studios. One guy, who has a vision and confidence in the direction they decide to take. And the Main reason Marvel went to Disney is because they needed Disneys money to create the big budgets to produce and start their MCU(Marvel Cinematic Universe)and I guess in the deal or talks with Disney, they agreed to leave the “Marvel Studios” alone which was smart.
          +DC Fanboy, Dan-o, Jonathon, While I agree with you guys I would for them to venture into other unknown properties, they should create a base universe like Marvel has done. Obviously everybody has their own likes, preferences, and opinions which is totally fine. DC has two ways to approach it. 1)They could’ve just created a Justice League movie and then done spinoffs, but obviously they start their DCCU(DC Cinematic Universe)like Marvels with MOS. But while I have high hopes for MOS2 and liked of MOS, I hope they seriously don’t try to jam all these characters together. The one thing I think Marvel has done perfectly, is been patient. They have created solo movies for each character. Showed their fans they care and it’s paid off so far especially with CA2 Box-Office numbers. Now Marvel has the opportunity to take risk with Guardians of the Galaxy this summer and Ant-Man next summer which I think will be an EXTREMELY hard sell for them. Basically they should establish their better known properties then move further into the unknown.

        • Actually Nolan’s Batman is a great example of jacked up numbers.

          at the time it was supposedly the #2 box-office grosser of all time, yet when Warner reported its quarter, it explained the “comps” with last year’s box-office caused it to gross less as they had a Harry Potter movie (not the #1 grosser of all-time just in case you were wondering) having done a lot better than Batman…

          Feel free to check it. I know you’ll be upset because you’ve come to trust numbers, but they’re just not accurate… at all.

  4. DC, I hope you find success soon, but if David S. Goyer is running your DC movie universe, you will need a TREMENDOUS amount of luck and prayers.

  5. Here’s the thing… I love CBMs. That’s just it. If its Marvel…i’d go on day 1. If its DC…same thing… 1st day.

    But..
    “I mean, it’s too early”
    “It’s just been vague conversations so far.”

    …That’s…slow. It is quite clear that DC is following the central tread of CBMs nowdays and exploring a shared universe.. Not tracing it exactly as Marvel has..but its the same…well thought out…concept.

    I’m quite sure WB/DC will change the MOS2 date again… I wish they would. I need the DC Universe to grow. To see solo flicks..to see team ups..to see justice league. We need WB/DC to do well. Marvel is light years ahead at this point. Personally… i just am not as excited for a Batman/Superman team up…with all the news so far.. Its fecking Batman AND Superman… and..the excitement and anticipation has been soured for a lot of people with casting choices and goyer n snyder. At the end of the day..DC shd do well to avoid direct competition.

    Right now, it just seems to be a straight forward situation…
    Marvel is essentially saying to WB/DC… “on your left”

    • I think your right… Honestly I am not a fan of Superman but that doesn’t mean I did not watch MoS. However I am bit wowed by the news when they announced BvS because I know how big those two superheroes are specially to fan boys.

      But then again, if WB/DC is just making this movie for the sake of catch-up and half cooking it, then its not worth it. For me they would rather make a solo sequel of MoS then slowly adding other superheroes in it. Because Batman ended his trilogy in a positive tone and IF let just say BvS won’t be as good as we expected then WB/DC just damaged the reputation of not just one but two Heavyweights in one movie.

    • “Right now, it just seems to be a straight forward situation…
      Marvel is essentially saying to WB/DC… “on your left” ”
      I really really like that! That’s exactly what Marvel is doing right now.

      DC should stick to making their cohesive DC universe in TV series. Arrow is doing phenomenal and I know for a fact Flash will do justice too! The producers clearly know what they’re doing and branching it off with spinoffs and what not. It may be hard work and cost, but if they do it right, we could be getting maybe two or three DC shows/seasons per year with a potential big TV movie crossover.
      Marvel can rule the cinema medium, DC can rule the TV medium.
      Because DC is just cursed with reboots in movies (another Batman just to make the DCCU work)

  6. Even though I can agree to an extent that it is good for DC to not emulate Marvel 100%, it is a little troubling to see that while the latter has their universe planned out till 2028, DC still has not even decided a solid direction to go despite the fact that they have positioned themselves perfectly for a shared universe. Given the way Batman will be handled in the films and certain elements that have already been introduced into the Arrow universe, all DC needs is the guts to take things one step further (nightwing/oracle) to create a cohesive world that lets TV and film pay homage to each other without stepping on the other’s toes

    As for properties like Sandman and Constantine though, I think that at this point given their content and tone, they would in fact work better as 100% independent projects for now at least

    • I disagree with the Constantine and Sandman being independent. What they could do instead is have that world still be a part of the DC universe but have it be hidden like the Harry Potter universe. In the HP universe they had certain “muggle” barriers, I’m not saying call them muggles and have every little thing the HP world but have it similar. It could work if some effort was put into it.

  7. “I mean, it’s too early..”
    In other words,
    I mean, we have zero confidence that a Superman, Batman movie is going to do well, so we’re just leaving it to shimmer for as long as humanly possible. Then, we’ll take another four years off to try and figure out how to maybe do a Wonder Woman flick. Who knows after that? Maybe after Avengers 3, we’ll consider getting around to a Justice League movie…Don’t want to emulate Marvel’s blueprint for a cohesive universe too much, after all. No, we’d rather just sit on our hands and enjoy what another company is doing so successfully at…

    WB needs to wake up and smell the roses. Every year they stall, the market is going to get less and less excited to see a DC universe come together. Who needs Superman once every couple years when you’ve got Marvel flicks coming out every other week?

    • I do. #DCfanatic

      • Me too.

      • Dude, not trying to be a Marvel fanboy or a hater when I say I feel you but you’re likely not right here.

        If in GotG someone makes mention of “blue-skinned” whatever’s, we have a direct connection to AoS. If, in Avengers 2 someone says “the twins”, “Agent13″, “Extremis” or “Hydra” there is an immediate connection to a bigger cinematic world. DC is without question running behind when you consider the last 50 years of the comic book landscape. I don’t know if they can catch up for a while. An awesome BvS could do it. Building Arrow, Flash and whomever solidly and dropping them into the DCCU might too. It’s by no means a done deal now.

  8. I agree with some of the above sentiment. With the casting choices so far in MOS2, its hard to keep any real excitement going for it. With any luck they will keep pushing the date out and delaying shooting long enough that some of their cast will walk off. Specifically Jesse Eisenberg. Cants stand that smarmy little sh**, especially as Lex Luthor. NO NO NO.

    I got used to Aflec as Bruce, but seriously… Facebook as Lex?

    With CBM’s being what they are and where they come from there is a certain expectation among most casual readers… All these hero’s live in the same place. They arent isolated away from one another and with personalities as big as Bats, Supes, and Wonder Woman… eventually their paths will cross, and often have, resulting in epic storytelling. To not capture that on screen would be a crime. So sure, WB doesnt want to follow Disney’s example out of spite if nothing else, but at some point you have to admit the inevitable. It just works. Its has the fans attention, and if money is the name of the game, you want to keep those fans pleased. So you eventually have to do it. It just makes sense. Its not copying, its just following a natural progression with established brands. So WB needs to stop their whining and get on the ball and get moving with this stuff while its still hot or they will yet again miss out on a very lucrative opportunity.

    • “Facebook as Lex?”

      You mean Mark Zuckerberg? The role he played in a David Fincher movie? A role that got him over 30 nominations including a golden globe, a BAFTA and an oscar? Yeah, he’s a horrible actor [sarcasm].

  9. WB/DC’s attitude is getting irritating now. They need to take a few risks and gambles if they need success. They also need to trust their properties much more.
    Batman, Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman etc are much more known than any other studios’ comic properties
    If they want to cash in on this superhero trend then they need to roll the dice.
    Even if they mess up we’ll respect that they showed courage

    • “…trust their properties much more.”

      Totally agree with this one. I mean, Marvel made Daredevil and Elektra but that didn’t stop them when it flopped. They just need right minds for their future projects.

      • Agreed. I think with the right people, DC can take off and produce 1 billion at the box office again but I just don’t think they have the right people now. I don’t have a lot of trust in Snyder and I don’t think Goyer can create anything good without Nolan

    • “Even if they mess up we’ll respect that they showed courage”

      Green Lantern reactions seem to show otherwise.

      • You are right, I am not arguing they faced flak. But its that way for everybody. You do well u get praised else u get admonished. Hey it still made 220 million inspite of being a bad film [ of course they lost money] according to their standards. They should still keep trying
        eg. Batman and Robin 1997 came before Nolan Trilogy so lets hope for best

  10. I would point out that (arguably) Marvel Studios has not had “enormous success” with their linking-television-to-film experiment…yet, anyway. Agents of SHIELD has survived (again arguably) only because of its connection to the films. The lesson there is that if you make films that generate sufficient enthusiasm, you can use them to sell almost anything else.

    Warner Bros needs to focus on developing a good DC film brand. I liked Man of Steel, but they need to reinforce it with more and better, moving forward. They already have a successful TV show in Arrow, so I don’t see any immediate incentive to connect all of the dots. There need to be more dots, first.

    • As a Comic book brand DC has always been a lot more popular.

      But as a movie brand, Marvel has DC effectively conquered. They need Tarantino.

      • Agreed. DC has owned Marvel with comics, animated films, and I would even put in the TV world but when it comes to the big screen, you have to give it to Marvel/Disney. Was their big screen films the best? That would be up for discussion but does Marvel/Disney have the stones to keep pushing out movie after movie and keep movie forward no matter what the outcome? Yes, and it has paid off. I mean, for all that went wrong with Iron Man 3, it still produced over 1 billion at the box office. For all the issues that The Avengers had along with the big budget team up movie costs, it paid off also producing over 1 billion at the box office. If WB/DC had any stones there would have been some kind of big overall plan in place after the success of TDK but instead they all sat on their behind and did nothing. I love DC but I have to admire what Marvel is doing. I mean, a GOTG movie which isn’t very well known to the general public, is a huge gamble. Are you kidding me? That gamble takes some stones right there but yet they already are working on the sequel. People give soo much credit to Goyer for all that was TDK trilogy but the fact is it was Nolan who made the movies what they were. Without Nolan, Goyer would have gave us a junk yard CBM. It’s time for Goyer to go and it’s time for them to bring in some heavy hitter directors/writers. Terrio for the MOS sequel is a start but also give the job to Affleck to direct as well or someone other than Snyder.

        • “…a GOTG movie which isn’t very well known to the general public, is a huge gamble.”

          Right? RIGHT?! I mean, I have never heard of GotG, not til 2012! I am not an avid comic book reader, obviously. But this move of Marvel/Disney, bringing characters only Comic book readers are familiar with to the big screen – WOW! It’s like, “They might not known who these characters are but it’s very important to the Avengers’ story, what the hell, the people need to know who they are! Besides, they kick ass.”

  11. Vague conversations????

    Yikes… that isn’t encouraging.

  12. What I don’t get is with all the success of The Dark Knight trilogy and now Man Of Steel, why wouldn’t WB/DC at least have some sort of plan set forth for the next 5-8 years at least. I do think with the success of the TV world they are probably moving towards a shared universe and eventually combining the TV world with the big screen world. I think it’s troubling that there is no set plan set in place for anything past MOS 2. If there is no plan, this tells me that they are placing all their marbles on this MOS sequel before planning anything further. While I agree that they shouldn’t emulate Marvel’s approach to things 100%, I do think they should at least have things planned out considering the 2 main superheroes they had did do well at the box office. The way things are going there will not be a Justice League movie for another 10 years. I think it’s about risk/reward. Marvel/Disney has gambled on their movies and for the most part it has paid off. Marvel/Disney gambled on a shared universe, big team up movie, and it has paid off. WB/DC needs to at least gamble on some future projects and stick with it, good or bad. Right now it’s just frustrating because there is no direction with WB/DC

    • There aren’t an visionaries like Feige and Whedon over at WB/DC, that’s why. Besides, they’re too careful to prevent another Green Lantern from happening. Baaaaaaaaad investments.

      • And in there lies the problem. The right people are not in place with DC. Say what you want about Arrow, but that product has the right people. They need to have someone who has the stones to be in place with big screen decisions

        • The problem was Nolan and TDK. They were too good to cross over. Really, WB/DC should have sucked it up and thrown an easter egg or two into TDKR to set up Man of Steel. Instead, they have to reboot Batman too soon after Nolan and include him in a sequel to a movie that was produced by Nolan, but not connected to the Batman that Nolan created.

          The trailer for Man of Steel even said “from the creators of The Dark Knight Trilogy.”

          As a result, The Dark Knight trilogy will likely be the biggest wrench in the development of a DC shared universe.

          • Right. For me, it’s the lack of planning that gets me. They are in a “let’s make this movie and see what happens before doing another one” state. They seem like they don’t want to commit to anything right now and it’s a shame because I think had they committed we would have been at the Justice League movie point right now but instead we are left to speculate if we ever will get one.

            • They need to make Bruce Timm their Feige over at WB. That guy knows how to bring the characters to life with respect to the source, the right amount of wit and humor as well as updating it for modern audiences.

  13. First thing WB needs to do is to fire Snyder and Goyer and then get a competent team and also to stop giving freedom to director to do whatever they want with their DC properties.

  14. The brilliant thing about their characters is that they don’t have to build a shared universe in the same way Marvel does. Characters like The Question, Green Arrow, Batman/Nightwing/Robin, Flash, and etc. all are typically constrained to a single city. You can tell smaller scale more intimate stories with each of them while avoiding the “where’s superman” question.

    They just need to have movies that don’t straight up contradict each other.

    For example, a good mystery/psychological thriller with The Question could be done independent of the rest of the JLA, then later, have Batman, Superman, WW, or any other established character come and recruit him.

    They don’t need to have a Nick Fury weaving in and out of every story.

  15. Well I can see where he’s coming from, yet I’m not all that impressed with where DC has gone thus far. If DC’s recipe for success is just to reinvent action comics than good luck to them.

    If I were DC, I’d be seriously looking at bringing in some high-impact characters about right now. Some thing totally unexpected that can match the drama of Wolverine or even Thor….Like resurrecting Lobo. I know there will be people who disagree, but Lobo could be one of the best reboots DC ever does. Flash is too super powered. The draw of Marvel is always their characters are more regular joes endowed with abilities, not super powers. And they are edgy. Lobo embodies this and the Watchmen just do not, I’d prefer to see him on screen going berserk against his employers.

    • I second and third the call for reviving Lobo.

      Remember issue 39 and the Dance of Death. Oh man what incredible story telling. Plus lets face it if Lobo raked it in, we might finally see a DC vs Marvel match up down the line. (Wolverine/Punisher vs Lobo/Sandman?) What corporate DC fatcat knuckle heads were responsible for killing off this amazing series?!?

      • Which Lobo? DC has their heart set on New 52 iterations of their characters and Lobo wasn’t especially well received. Man of Steel is basically an adaptation of Superman: Earth One with Zod and his crew standing in for Tyrell and the alien Armada (it seriously even follows the plot of Tyrell threatening that millions will die if someone he’s been lookig for (Clark and his infant escape from Krypton) does not surrender to him.

        Now, they’re bringing in an aged and already established Batman (a la New 52 Batman having been around years before other heroes showed up), meaning we miss out on seeing any more than some quick establishing flashbacks of what’s led up to where he’s at now and a whole lot of story we’re just supposed to accept as having happened with no investment being made in the events.

        Their idea for tying things together seems to be going the cliffhanger route, which is going to be fun when something bombs and we never get resolution to the narrative… but that seems to be another thing they are taking from New 52 considering they pretty much ditched the entire reason the N52 supposedly had to happen at the end of flashpoint.

        DC/WBs problem is that they seem to be hodge-podging the whole ordeal, and waiting too many years for a MoS sequel without so much as a game plan isn’t going to help any.

        • So shouldn’t it be a sign to WB that they need their own “Kevin Feige?” ONE guy who has a vision and is confident in the way they want to take DC comics portrayal on the big screen. A guy who isn’t scared to take risks. I mean none of us know exactly how everything works behind the walls, but basically doesn’t Kevin Feige just ask Disney for a budget, they give it to him and leave him alone to let him work his magic. That was the main reason why Marvel approached Disney in the first place because they needed more money to produce these movies and with Disney it gave them that opportunity. Then Kevin Feige somehow convinced Disney’s big bosses to leave Marvel Studios alone and they’ve never looked back.

          • Yes. Unfortunately the guy they are leaning on happens to be the guy that has a tendency to take existing stories and attempts to retrofit them into a continuity they are presently establishing (SM: Earth One for example), whether they fit or not.

            I know people like to praise Goyer, and I have nothing against him personally that makes me swear off anything he’s done, but most viewers seem to miss that just about everything he has done is an adaptation of something before. Yes, that can be said of comic films in general in that they take cues from this storyline and that, but I would urge anyone to watch Man of Steel and then immediately read Earth One.

            At least when most narratives use cues from existing stories they admit as much.

  16. I think my biggest problem with DC movies has to be WB.

    The worst part of the MCU is AoS, by far.

    WB has been watering down DC mythos into teen drama for more than a decade now. I know plenty of people love the CW but I can’t be the only one who feels like the CW killed these heroes.

    And a DC triple down(Arrow, Flash, Constantine) on the TV/movie shared universe would do a big disservice to the DC roster.

    I hope hope hope that WB chooses to keep DC TV and movies separate.

    • Agree with the WB sentiment (though I think AoS is perfectly okay XD). DC is not the biggest issue, it’s WB (as I have stated in my comment).

      I liked Arrow in its first season, but my interest is starting to grate off, just because it felt too soap-opera-ish now. Which means, you’re right… CW has indeed watered down the DC heroes, especially by taking liberties and changes that sometimes made you wonder the necessity to do so. You’re not the only one who thinks CW ‘killed’ this heroes, (at least) I’m on board with you.

  17. One thing that Nolan always said he did with his Batman movies was that he focused so much energy on the one movie he was making at the time and really focus on future installments. I think that’s the sort of direction that WB and DC seem to be taking.

    Marvel has had their plans for years now and yeah at first it led to some weak/ok solo movies (IM2, Thor was good not great IMO, and CA1) before the big splash that was the Avengers. I believe the Avengers has helped make the Solo movies much grander and better than their predecessors. I didn’t like IM3 because of the direction they went in with more comedy but I can’t argue that the direction they went with wasn’t grand and executed and its because of the Avengers I believe.

    WB seems more focused on making every single movie as big and grand as they can by having other heroes show up in each others movies. I think that’s what Goyer means by Cohesive that with each movie you wont leave asking “Okay why didnt Superman or Batman show up with Wonder Woman was fighting the…” but hey I could be wrong. I thought MOS was a great movie and believe that a lot of people didnt like it because they didnt like the direction it went it but I still believe that it was very grand in its execution.

  18. WB/DC are absolute cowards who couldn’t have screwed up their approach to a shared universe if they tried. And it was SO EASY to get right. This Gotham TV is absolutely an affront to everything they should be doing. What they ARE doing is completely alienating the general audience in several stupid ways (which I may elaborate on in further detail later).

  19. To my understanding, WB have already sufficiently distinguished themselves from the Marvel formula by having Superman be the first hero in the movieverse inspiring others to take action and steadily be added to the roster (Supes + Bats + WW).

    Another way of displaying an original approach to the Justice League road would be going with mini team-ups: Flash/GL, Bats/Nightwing/Martian Manhunter, or as Goldilocks suggested, The Atom/Hawkman/Dr Fate (did I get that one right?) in order to demonstrate that there is palpable chemistry between both the characters and the actors portraying them.

    Plus, they should definitely incorporate Stephen Amell’s Green Arrow into cinematic continuity. Just have the show take place 5-7 years before MoS. Wonder Woman should merely pop up in the mid-credits scene of MoS2, then introduce her path to that moment in a semi-origin movie (there should be a plausibe reason for her to journey to the world of men); the same could apply to Aquaman [I'd post the link to a wonderful fan-video of MoS2 on YouTube involving Bizarro and the arrival of Aquaman and WW via interdimensional portals that just so happen to be located on some island and in the depths of the ocean, but I'm not so sure about its title anymore.]

    AND compartmentalize responsibilities. If Goyer takes the brunt of the creative workload, the WB/DC-verse is doomed to fail. Different minds with different sensibilities should be unleashed on different characters.

    • Well, you have the right idea. I was thinking Atom, Martian Manhunter, & Hawkman; Doctor Fate & Hourman; Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)and Flash (Barry Allen), etc. but seems like there would be an audience for those, and get a few more characters for the DC/Warner Universe established (including some for JLA). Incidently, I do realize Doctor Fate and Hourman are from the JSA, bt they were a good pairing in the older comics, and buddies much as Bats and Supes, or GL & Flash. Great chemistry, and fought characters like Solomon Grundy and Psycho Pirate, among others. Incidently, although there were many great villains for the JLA members to fight as a group or individually, I always especially liked Professor Zoom, the Reverse-Flash, who now seems like a possibility with the advent of a Flash series, and Time Commander. Hope we will seem them in all their glory eventually.

    • “WB have already sufficiently distinguished themselves from the Marvel formula by having Superman be the first hero in the movieverse inspiring others to take action and steadily be added to the roster”

      Then why is it we’re getting an older semi-retired Batman who’s already spent years doing things we’ll never see? That right there seems to contradict Superman being the influencing factor.

  20. It seems to me like WB has already gone too far down a path that will not allow them to connect their TV/Cinematic universes together…unless someone comes up with something completely clever.

    WB appears to be carefully choosing actors for its cinematic universe and it doesn’t seem likely that Grant Gustin would fit into a cinematic embodiment of The Flash…I could be wrong, and in some ways I really hope I am.

    But I just feel like WB probably produced Arrow long before thinking about doing any type of connection between the two worlds and now they’re seeing the success that Marvel has had so far connecting their universes and thinking ‘oh dang, we screwed up’.

    • Simple.

      Crisis-point on Infinite Live-Action Adaptations.

  21. they need to hurry up…Marvel is snagging all the good powers. Quicksilver looks like it will make Flash irrelevant..Captain America IMO captured the boy scout all american that Man In Steel did not have…Black Widow is slowly stealing whatever female fan base wonder woman might have

    On the flip side, DC animated films are still THE BEST

  22. This guy is a hack

  23. I don’t think we can count out dc yet. Remember man of steel was the first in a new film francise. With mos2 we will in some way be introduced to batman and wonder woman….how? We don’t know yet.

    Wb is a large company that has many films going at once. Dc is a small section. If dc had its own studio….I forsee a similar if not more brutal war than marvel faces with its properties. No batman,superman,wonder woman, green lantern….who else? While marvel has had sucess, it lost a few gems the xmen and spiderman the big two.

    Id rather have the justice league and not something similar to it yet lacking the key members…

    ” dc we leave we want our own studio….wait your keeping the bat? And wonder woman…crap and the flash and arrow and superman….wait we can’t mention justice league? Oh crud”

    Nope id rather keep what we got to see the trinity. Givin the fact they chose to delay the film To redo the faults is a good sign.

    Also the new ceo seems willing to give the idea a shot. I believe we will be hearing some interesting news soon.

    • That’s the thing though. WB/DC is throwing everything on this MOS sequel which normally would be a great thing but having it release the same day that Marvel does isn’t business smart. I would hope that if Marvel doesn’t move they would be smart enough to move the dates around to get the best type of numbers because right now as it stands they will not get the best in returns. Don’t give me this whole “it’s Superman and Batman” mess either because that only applies to us fans. To the general public it’s all about which one looks the best(good script/plot/action/ect) and most of them will only see one out of the 2 opening day with maybe seeing the other the next weekend. What happens if this sequel makes less than what they thought it would make? Do they just abandon ship or wait another 6-8 years before doing another CBM because that’s what their plans seems to be right now

    • I don’t think studios out side time warner getting the movie rights to dc is a problem?

  24. if wonder women bombs wouldnt that make it harder for batman v superman

  25. They technically emulated Marvel Studios a bit, even if unintentionally:
    -First movie is a solo film. Marvel Studios’ approach of solo films to build-up to The Avengers isn’t the only way of doing a shared universe, WB/DC could’ve done the opposite and had the Justice League first before spinning off into solo films. Although they consciously did this for story reasons as they intended Superman to be the first hero for their cinematic universe

    -First movie planted some seeds for a further universe. MoS did this namely through a bunch of Easter Eggs as nods to other DC characters, which may be legitimized retrospectively in a future DC movie. Like how the prototype Captain America shield in Iron Man 1 which was a gag more than anything was legitimized in Iron Man 2 to acknowledge that Captain America does exist. For MoS, the Wayne Enterprises satellite which was a tribute to Nolan’s TDK trilogy is probably going to be legitimized as a reference to Batman existing in MoS’ universe for the sequel. Otherwise, IM1 is mostly a standalone movie that could expand into a shared universe just like how MoS is a standalone movie that could expand into a shared universe

    -The sequel touches upon the shared universe aspect more. Iron Man 2 had a subplot of Tony’s evaluation for the Avengers initiative through Black Widow’s introduction, and Batman/Superman is an outright crossover with Batman and Wonder Woman.

    -The end game is building up to the all-star team crossover, The Avengers and Justice League respectively. Again WB/DC did not need to start with a solo film, particularly when the reception to Green Lantern meant that maybe a team film could introduce some of their roster as a safeguard before deciding that anyone not named Batman or Superman deserved solo flms. But with their conscious decision to make Superman the first hero and to finally get the Justice League movie out once and for all, they’re still emulating Marvel’s approach while going about it a different way. Marvel took five films to build up to The Avengers, the Justice League will probably have fewer to build up to it. This may mean making mini-ensembles instead of solo films if it means introducing the Justice League roster quickly, a la Batman/Superman with the trinity. It’s still an emulation of Marvel’s approach, just different

    Now regardless of how they’re building their cinematic universe to get to the Justice League emulating Marvel or not, they still don’t seem to have a plan in place. They’re putting all their eggs in one basket with Batman/Superman. Better make sure the film is top notch before they pursue any further expansion of the DC cinematic universe, I suppose…

    • Right and that’s what scares me. There is already a division with casting among fans for this movie and now we are going to place everything on this movie in hopes that it reaches Avengers type of success and oh, by the way, we are also opening the movie at the same time that a Marvel movie opens that seems to have been critically a hit. Yeah, that’s a smart way to guarantee that your movie has the best possibility of succeeding.

  26. You are right Jared. I loved Nolan’s Batman. It was done well. The third film not so much but by and large it pleased everyone. When MoS came out I said, “this could work, he really could be a great Supes, and he did. I was all for the second part.

    But when WB decided to reintroduce Batman hiring Affleck, that’s when everything crumbled. Now that they hired this obnoxious guy Eisenberg for Lex, they seem to be going more and more on the wrong direction. That’s why I won’t support the Weary Batfleck. I was to pay for a second MoS film not an experiment from WB to try to get the numbers Avengers reached. It is all about the money. What a shame!

  27. I really love all this discussion about CBM’s but I’m slowly realizing how we shouldn’t get too caught up in the DC vs. Marvel comparison, because there really isn’t one. I think we all forget that DC is not a film studio set up like Marvel so why compare them as if they were. If this is strictly about comparing movie studios then it should really be about Marvel vs. WB and when we look at it from this perspective WB is not so far behind as people think, Marvel is the pinnacle and standard for how CBM should be structured and produced but that doesn’t mean it’s better than WB or even DC in any shape or form. Marvel started this whole shared cinematic universe format a lot earlier but that doesn’t mean they make better franchises then WB. Everyone forgets that WB has multiple billion dollar franchises (Harry Potter, The Hobbit, TDK trilogy). I don’t think it’s fair to even compare DC and Marvel films because they are structured and produced completely different. Marvel has been working on this cinematic universe for so long that’s why things are so much smoother and cohesive. Even if it’s Disney VS. Marvel I would think WB is slightly more successful (I know Disney has some valuable Pixar franchise).

    I feel people can honestly compare and debate themselves to death after we’ve seen MOS2 then it will be fair because they would be in the same structure, but I mean I prefer the Nolan trilogy structure than what Marvel is doing but I appreciate and love both styles. If Nolan’s trilogy wasn’t as successful, they would have moved into more of a shared and crossover cinematic universe much sooner and we would never know how things would turn out. I actually really like and admire Goyer, I think it’s good to express some doubt and uncertainty, that means they really care and they are trying something new and different. I think MOS2 will be great because everyone is already thinking it’s going to suck. I think if you are a real CBM fan you should embrace different styles, they don’t all have to have huge shared universes.

    Personally I love both Marvel and DC movies, I prefer DC but that doesn’t make them better.

  28. The Marvel approach clearly works. There’s no question of that. I mean, a movie about Captain America – historically not the most bankable superhero – just made $96 mil over the weekend. All of this “we need a different approach” talk is pure ego. I wish DC and Goyer would swallow their pride and come out and say, “Look at their numbers!! We would be crazy not to copy their approach!!”

    • +Henry, You are very correct. I can’t argue any of your points about comparing Marvel Studios vs. DC because you’re right. It should be more so Marvel Studios vs WB, that’s a true point. But with stating that, maybe that’s where WB needs to create their own DC Studios like other people have commented. WB/DC needs their own “kevin Feige.” A guy that has a vision, plan, and is confident in it. His only job is to focus on creating comic book movies from the DC universe. Like +KT posted up earlier “they need a Bruce Timm guy” who can envision these goals and transfer them to the big screen. And like you have said and some other people, Nolan’s trilogy was so GOOD that it did hinder them from creating a bigger and more shared universe because everybody would be comparing it to his trilogy. And I would say(not arguing or invalidating your point)most of us on here commenting do embrace styles and are open to them. But what +hajin said, he is right. Marvels Studios formula has been working since 2008 with the start of their MCU. While everybody has their own opinions, preferences, and likings, which is totally fine. Possibly WB should do it that way anyways since they have already stepped that way. Like he said “Captain America-historically not the most bankable superhero-just made $96 mil over the weekend” not to mention the first one wasn’t that great as a STAND-ALONE film, but after seing CA2, it made me appreciate the first one more(I am more of a DC fan comic wise and cinematic)but Marvel Studios has been patient with their process. They planned it out from the beginning and supposedly Feige reported they have plans all the way up to 2028. Point being though that Marvel Studios has been dedicated to the fans, patient, and given them what they have wanted. Not craptastic films(Granted I loved Nolans trilogy obviously and I actually liked MOS)but like other people have said, they are banking most of their hopes on MOS2. They mashed together batman and superman(which is pretty awesome, don’t get me wrong, plus do WE all really need to or want to go through his origin story AGAIN??)but they have over crowed MOS2. Granted once again I don’t know how they plan to implement all their characters so it could turn out good which I am HOPING for most definitely. Point though, Marvels formula has worked and while they don’t need to copy it 100%, I wouldn’t blame them. Plus as a fan, I’d prefer because it shows me they actually care about their characters and giving them their just deserves instead of trying to play the catch up game with Marvel Studios.

  29. The moment I read Goyer said that statement I went “I knew it”. As I always said, WB doesn’t really need a DC universe, when they have other more potential franchise they can bank on. If I were a DC fan (though I’m not Marvel’s either), I’d feel sad just knowing that DC is stuck with WB, while Marvel is running free in their own studio (with the involvement of Disney of course).

    I hope this shut down constant speculation and assumption that the TV-verse is connected to the movie. Some people are still persistent that Arrow and it’s counterparts (Flash, probably Gotham and Constantine) will be linked to the movies. They are and will probably NOT. Please get over that people, Arrow is a Smallville treatment. Probably the same reason why Wonder Woman series was cancelled, because they want to use her in the big screen. Though it’s gonna be quite funny, that their TV-verse is already connected.

    As for WB (NOT DC) not imitating Marvel, that’s good… though kinda feel like they have been doing so (e.g. taking that May 2016 date?). Show your plans for the future and please your fans then…