Should Two-Face & The Joker Return In Batman 3?
Aug 27, 2009 by Kofi OutlawThe pros and cons of bringing these two back – and what are the alternatives.
We here at Screen Rant recently asked the question, “What Will Batman 3 Be About?” The third installment of Christopher Nolan’s Batman franchise is easily one of the most anticipated sequels ever – as evidenced by the HUGE outpouring of reader reaction our article is STILL receiving.
Out of the 350+ comments left by you Batman fans, two clear points of debate raged longest and hardest throughout the thread of discussion. After seeing the sparks of that debate, we thought it only fitting that we should fan it into a brush fire. So, without further ado I now ask:
Should Two-Face and The Joker be brought back for Batman 3?
THE NEW IMPORTANCE OF THE VILLAIN
One of the things I really appreciated about Batman Begins and The Dark Knight was that it was clear with both films that scribes Chris and John Nolan and David S. Goyer all truly understood the character of Batman and the universe that he inhabited. More than that, the writers also had a keen eye for what made all of Batman’s supporting characters and (most importantly) the villains in his rogues gallery tick. If I have one criticism of Burton’s Batman films, it’s that the villains were mainly evil foils for Batman, there more for (wonderful) theatrics rather than any sort of pointed reason.
In Nolan’s films, the villains (for the most part) have carried much more dramatic weight. Certainly that’s true for The Dark Knight: The Joker wasn’t just there for show of a trademark smile (cough, cough), he added actual thematic meaning to the story, as did Harvey/Two-Face. And for that matter, so did Ra’s al Ghul in Batman Begins (Bruce Wayne twisted by anger).
There has been some debate about whether Batman 3 should position itself as a direct sequel to The Dark Knight, or perhaps as more of a standalone story, set long after TDK. In either case, if Nolan is at the helm you know that whatever villain(s) go into the script will only be in there if they add weight and meaning to the story. And while it would be a novel kick to see a few new villains rolled out for a flashy sequel, if Batman 3 is to be set directly after Dark Knight then there is still a lot of narrative weight still hanging on both The Joker and Harvey/Two-Face.
So do you bring them back?
.
TWO-FACE
Ok, so fans have said it; Nolan has said it; and even Dark Knight star Aaron Eckhart (eventually) said it:
Harvey Dent dies at the end of The Dark Knight. End of story.
However, as many of our readers have pointed out, that “death” marks the end of Harvey Dent’s story. Two-Face has a story all his (their?) own to tell.
I’m going to be honest: I’ve already argued that Batman 3 should bring back Two-Face, so I’m not going to pretend here that I’m not already in favor of that option. TDK did a great job exploring Harvey Dent, what he meant to Gotham and what it meant when he “fell from grace.” Nonetheless, I feel like there is still so much to explore in the character of TWO-FACE, and who that character becomes after the last remnants of Harvey Dent are (seemingly) gone.
Seeing Harvey fully transformed into Two-Face would add the kind of weight and hopelessness which (I think we all believe) is going to be a necessary starting point for Batman’s character in the next film. Picture it: The Caped Crusader is low. He’s hunted. He’s alone. He’s sacrificed much. Lost so much. He’s trying hard to maintain but there is Two-Face, always staring back as a testament to his failure, as morally complicated and conflicted as Batman himself.
Suddenly this character doesn’t sound as creatively exhausted as people are claiming, does he?
Another point of convergence in a lot of our reader comments was that any Dark Knight sequel should involve a flat-out war for control of Gotham City. Of those who held such an opinion, a large percentage also thought that B3 should be titled Gotham City for that very reason. If that is the direction the film goes in, then absolutely Two-Face would be an important cornerstone of the story. After all, as a D.A. Harvey Dent knew the entire inner workings of Gotham city’s businesses, political network, banking network, legal system, prison system, etc… If there was some kind of epic showdown for Gotham, then Two-Face would be one of the most crucial pieces on the chessboard.
Black Mask in Batman 3? (Click image for source)
Of course a lot of people have said that B3 should feature the criminal mastermind Black Mask (above), a classic Bat-villain who has recently enjoyed something of a resurgence in the comic books. But I have to ask: why drag us all through yet another villain origin story, just to maneuver said villain into a position (a crime boss connected all over Gotham) that you could fill with a villain the audience already knows and (for the most part) loves? Putting Two-Face into play frees the story up to introduce whatever secondary villains it wants, without having to exhaust a lot of time getting into their origins.
For example: Two-Face could approach Black Mask, The Penguin or whoever, deliver a few expository lines of dialogue to fill us in on who the villain is, and how he/she fits into the scheme of Gotham (based on his knowledge as a D.A.), and bada-bing, bada-boom, we’ve got a new player in the game, no time wasted.
So where’s the down-side of bringing Two-Face back? “Because it’s boring?” “Because it’s beating a dead horse?”
IMHO, if you truly understand why the character has been so pivotal and important to the Batman universe (I’d rank him #3 behind The Joker and Catwoman), then you should also understand just how much cinematic juice is left in this character. How do you NOT go after that juice when you know you’ve got an actor (Eckhart) who can truly apply the squeeze? Do people really think performances like his just just come with every Summer Movie Blockbuster?
UPDATE: Here’s what Two-Face himself (Aaron Eckhart) has to say on the subject:
MY VOTE: Bring back Two-Face!
Continue reading for pro/con arguments on whether the Joker should return…
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Hector,
(“My question was why can’t the Riddler have “his own flavour” even if it includes murder?”)
Ofcourse, EVERY Character involved in a script MUST have a Flavour.
I think for both of us, ANY character HAS to be 1. Realistic 2. Flavoured. The remaining third non-compulsory criterion is ‘Darkness’. It is a preferential issue.
(“While you believe realism stems from comics …”)
I do not remember believing in that. I only said…
(“There is a limit to which the boundaries of a character can be extended. For some characters it is high for some it is low. That is the joy of having so many characters of different attitudes, altitudes and INTENSITY.”)
By that I mean the PRINCIPLES that a character follows in the comics/novels.
Eg: The Joker follows the Chaos theory. Black Mask has a personnal issue with Bruce Wayne. Both are Psychotics. Riddler is USUALLY a Bank Robber obssessed with Riddles. Mad Hatter is paedophilic. Two-Face has a Bipolar Personality Disorder.
Now these are Flavours/Principles/BEHAVIOUR/Psyche of that character for me that should be implemented…COMPULSORILY.
AND SO The point is:
“Having Principles” and “Believing realism stems from comics ” are two different issues. I believe in the First and NOT in the Second.
The character MUST have those those Principles because they are Inherent Behavioural Principles. It does not matter then whether he is in the campy atmosphere of comics or Nolan’s real world. So Riddler Killing Someone is breaking one of those Principles (FOR ME) irrespective of whether he is as campy as comics or as realistic as Nolan’s would-be-Riddler.
BTW, have you read my views on Realism related to Joker in my FIRST post for this article (PAGE 6). If you had read that, this debate about my realism being stemming from comics would not even arose.
Hector,
(“But then again the answers are not found in a comic book which will be hard for you to answer, I understand.”)
What you call ‘Answers’, I call it ‘Script-writing’ and they are hard for me not because they are not found in comics but because I’m just too lazy to write scripts. I do not depend on comics for the storyline. I refer to the to understand the Behavioural Principles (described in a previous post) of a character. If the No. of solutions is EXACTLY one then it can be called an ‘Answer’ but if it can be multiple then it is a ‘script’ and can be developed depending on the director’s imagination. So what the Top-class mystery could be is for the script-writer/director to decide as it requires a script (FOR ME), not an answer.
But I also agree with you that Riddler’s Mystery could be developed around Death. The only thing is FOR ME, it could be that Riddler is NOT responsible for the Death himself but happens to know who (Black Mask/Bane/Mr. Freeze) caused those
and is blackmailing the responsible guy and at the same time is entertaining himself by leading Batman clue-by-clue one-step-at-a-time to the victims. Now that’s the best I can give in the name of a ‘Answer/Script’
Hector,
P.S: I got your point on the issue of level of modern movies/novels. All the time you were refering to the INTENSITY of the movie/novels that can be depicted(What is more intense: Rape or Murder?) and how it can evolve with time. And all the time I was thinking of the script/dialogues/maturity of those PARTICULAR Bat-novels which is cast in stone and unaffected by time.
Overall it was a non-issue for both of us as we both were correct.
Hector,
I had forgot one more point of yours!
(“What kind of thug now a days works for a weak personality and no back bone kind of individual.”)
Here too I agree with you. So instead of letting the Riddler keep the thugs and make him a vicious/intensive killer personality (which breaks my considered Behaviourial Pattern for Riddler), I would totally ret-con it from the comics itself by … remove the thugs-working-for-Riddler scenario totally and Let the Riddler be alone, as Secretive as he can by keeping his Secrets intact, at the same time blackmailing others and scattering puzzles here-n-there for others JUST HAVING FUN! AT THE SAME TIME HE COULD BE DARK if one wants him to and his mystery could be evolved around Death caused by others(see my previous post).
YEAH…THAT IS THE RIDDLER!
I believe in everything you’ve just said. Two-Face should come back, and if not, then Black Mask. Hell, do i Need to write everything out… you did it… soooo… yeaaaah….. nice read!
@Amol
Can you be more specific? Your comments seem to be getting through just fine. It looks like you’re double posting dome comments for some reason, though.
Vic
Vic
Just before I complained I had tried posting those very comments that I posted post-complaint.
But the difference is they got posted only when I removed that ‘@’ sign used for direction. You will see the difference.
But I will try using ‘@’ this time. Let’s see if it gets me thro’…Let’s check: 1 2 3 …
@Vic
You are great, Vic.
Riddler would be the best next villian. smarter than bruce, a cunning a devious character, and full of mystery. plus he has a dark side to him.
along side that i would like to see bane. and a return of harvey dent (two face).
but please i beg you nolan… NO ROBIN!
thnks
Vic
Please feel free to remove all my double postings (there are not many) BUT ONLY IF THEY ARE DOUBLE and keep just that one long original copy directed at Hector.
Actually, I don’t want to appear imposing.
(You can also remove this post afterwards.)
Thanks Vic
Ill take the ladder lets hope they go with some new villains lets see someone who looks cool and can be sinister…The old villains are well just old the riddler is corny so is the penguin and so on(catwomen,twoface,joker) they were all created in 50s/60s lets see some of the newer criminals in the the newer comics
@Frank
Try the 40′s for Catwoman, Two-Face, and Joker(age doesn’t make them corny). What new villains are you talking about i think the last new villain ive read of Batman was Grotesk and im not even sure if we ever got to see him(even though he was pretty hardcore) or are you talking like Man-Bat, Killer Kroc, and Bane new(70′s, 80′s, 90′s)?
i dont want a another batman 3 movies they should do other movies not a another sequels???
I am surprised at the number of people who think that the Riddler absolutely could not kill. In fact he is quite capable of it. In the old comics and even TV he was just as insane as Joker if not more so. But because of the nature of the media at that time killing was simply avoided. For what was allowed at the time Frank Gorshen played him beautifully: complete, irrational, voilent insanity held by only the tiniest thread of restraint, and that thread ready to break at any moment.
Theft, abduction and murder are all things the Riddle is quite capable of in an ever intensifying downward spiral of cat and mouse. Johnny Depp would be quite good at it.
propnut
What WIKIPEDIA says about The Riddler :
1. The Riddler is NOT A PSYCHOPATHIC MURDERER; a large portion of Riddler’s crimes are non-violent in nature
2. Batman’s direct conflicts with the Riddler are typically more cerebral than physical and usually involve defeating him non-violently.
3. He cannot simply kill his opponents when he has the upper hand; he has to put them in a deathtrap to see if he can devise a life and death intellectual challenge that the hero cannot solve and escape.
If the victims are able to solve his puzzle they are allowed to go scot free.
NOW…
Please, give me one good Example of Riddler ***–KILLING– *** someone himself.
WHAT DOES NOT COUNT: Killing when under a spell, forcing someone to commit suicide, Brutally beating someone.
And even if you are able to find one stand-alone instance of Riddler killing someone, is it enough to portray Riddler as A PSYCHOPATHIC MASS MURDERER which a “Serial Killer” is anyway and is a very serious thing and very UNapplicable to The Riddler?
@TO ALL
For humanity’s sake, I do find Riddler as a Weak villain but he one of my favourites because of his intelligence and a portion of ‘Innocence’ he has in him UNlike The Joker and Black Mask.
Please let him enjoy his intelligence, innocence , prankishness becuase that is The Riddler’s Identity and Let’s Not support this “Riddler as Serial Killer” ridiculous theory which does not make him dark but ALTOGETHER ALTER HIS NATURE and he does not stay the Riddler anymore.
Propnut
One more thing,
“Having the capability to kill someone” and “ACTUALLY KILLING someone” (THAT TOO ON A REGULAR BASIS because if Nolan has too portray Riddler he cannot just show him as a Serial Killer based on an one-off stand-alone incident of killing someone in Riddler’s whole History because that would be INJUSTICE with Riddler and taking him to the OPPOSITE EXTREME END of his nature.) are two distinct aspects.
@ Amol
While I see the concept of your idea and its a different way to approach the situation the only draw back is his only crime would be blackmail. I just don’t see it working in a Nolan film. We have already seen blackmail used in TDK. And that was to the ultimate question, Who is Batman? We also saw how Bruce Wayne would handle himself in that situation, he would be the bigger person, over look the fact that somebody is trying to attack him and put his own life on the line.
Also seeing how he would be weak and we agree with the no thug situation, how would he inforce his blackmails on others. Correct me if I’m wrong but wouldn’t Black Mask or Hush kill him, Bane snap him in half and Mr. Freeze freeze him?
Your concept makes the Riddler a secondary villain, not the main villain. While it would work and he would be valuable for his information it doesn’t give what the masses want, a badass Riddler.
“3. He cannot simply kill his opponents when he has the upper hand; he has to put them in a deathtrap to see if he can devise a life and death intellectual challenge that the hero cannot solve and escape.” — What happens when Batman doesn’t figure out the riddle?
@ propnut
I feel you, just not Johnny Depp and good luck with Amol.
The next film should pick up EXACTLY where The Dark Knight left off, and should be an “on the run” movie. Batman is him running for his life from the cops, the citizens, and the mob. He can only meet with Gordon on the sly, and if anyone finds out, Gordon is going to get fried – that build his character and suspense. The crime bosses issue a ransom to the world-wide underworld, turning Gotham into the comic book equivalent of Afghanistan. Bad guys from all over the world are in town as hired guns, and they’re taking over the city like the Wild West. The city finally realizes that they need Batman to clean this mess up, public opinion shifts, and Batman comes back to save the day. Except that he’s mortal, and he simply can’t do it. Enter Bane and the fall of Batman. Cue the tears. Comic book tragedy.
I personally agree with the Two Face Black Mask idea. To me that would definetely be the perfect storyline for Batman3. Those two could take over gotham and turn into the Afghanistan of today and bring in hired guns to help take over the city, and in the end the city cries for batman to save them and he would no longer be an outlaw on the run
@Hector
(“While I see the concept of your idea and its a different way to approach the situation the only draw back is his only crime would be blackmail”)
Different way? That is the ORIGINAL way. Yes, but HE DEFINITELY CAN BE BADASS with being a serial killer.
(“his only crime would be blackmail. I just don’t see it working in a Nolan film.”)
Why not if he IS portrayed as a Badass and also co-operates with a stronger guy like Black Mask?
(“We have already seen blackmail used in TDK. And that was to the ultimate question, Who is Batman? We also saw how Bruce Wayne would handle himself in that situation, he would be the bigger person, over look the fact that somebody is trying to attack him and put his own life on the line.”)
That’s why he was never choice for me as a Villian in the first place. By bringing out such points your are actually supporting my cause for dismissing Riddler from the list.
(“Your concept makes the Riddler a secondary villain, not the main villain.”)
That’s what he always was and that’s what he will always be. And I ‘m not going by the comics but by his personality. We need a more physical villain like a Black Mask (along with whom the Riddler can work in tandem with.)
AND now to the All-Important Point…:
(“What happens when Batman doesn’t figure out the riddle?”)
He dies and what more? He is a human afterall. Most importantly he was inefficient in a crunch situation. But that still thankfully does NOT make Riddler a Serial Killer (I hate even to use those two words for Riddler).
OK Let’s say, there are two types of Riddlers:
1. Type-1-Riddler has targeted a hundred guys and created a hundred Life & Death puzzles each different from the other and put these 100 guys into those puzzles. Now these 100 guys have, depending on their wits, a probability of HALF each for getting out alive or getting dead. Only 15 fools die and 85 lucky B*stards get out alive. But remember, ALL 100 could easily have been as dead as a Dodo.
2. Type-2-Riddler has targetted only just 10 guys but is intent on killing them and DOES KILL THEM EFFECTIVELY ALL in the style of HANNIBAL LECTER [Silence of the Lambs(1991)] or similar to JOHN DOE [SE7EN(1995)]. Though he killed only 10, more important is that Type-2 Riddler is more effective and efficient than Type-1.
Which Riddler would you choose? (But If you find both unfit, you can describe your Riddler by giving such an example.)
I would reveal my choice and the reason for it latter. You choose first.
OOPs! I wanted to say:
HE DEFINITELY CAN BE BADASS withOUT being a serial killer.
Characters I think should be in B3:
Matches Malone
Ras al Ghul + Talia al Ghul
Black Mask
Harley Quinn
or Catwoman in place of Ras and Talia
@Amol
Personal;y I would not consider the Riddler just yet. I think he would be better suited for a film where things have settled down for Batman and he is acknowledged by Gotham City.
But, Riddler would be decent choice to draw out the Batman when he is in hiding during B3.
The stage has now been set for B3 on four levels.
(1) for a tactical villain to come and usurp the control that has been newly awarded to Gothams citizins. Enter: Black Mask.
(2) for Bruce to rely more on the person of Bruce Wayne and less on the persona of Batman except at crucial instances. This would lead to more detective work and possible emergence of a new identity. Enter: Matches Malone
(3) for the identity of Bruce Wayne to also be targeted, as Batman is also hunted. Enter or reenter: Ras al Ghul with Talia al Ghul
(4) for Joker to be avenged and/or the possible escape of Joker to be initiated. Enter: Harley Quinn
Harley Quinn would actively seek of the Batman and act as a minor inconvenience to him.
Well, it could be like the Harley Quinn of the cartoon where Batman doesn’t really want to hurt her, making it harder to stop her from being a menace.
**Polly Shannon or Jaime Pressly for Harley Quinn!**
@hector
“Good luck with amol”-lol… Tell me about it.
Anyways… Eventhough i can see The Riddler as a ” SERIAL KILLER” , the story that i want to see him in doesn’t involve him killing anyone. This story is from “The BAtman” cartoon not tas… It was where both batman and riddler are trapped inside this steel crate or something like that and the riddler is actually telling batsy his origin story and how batman was there from when he first became the riddler and for his demise (or so he thinks…). He does try to kill a couple of people but bats ruins it for him (as always). At the end of it all… You actually feel for the riddler especially at the end when batman asks who was the bigger victim…? And a single tear runs down the riddlers face… I’ll have to admit it but i too was all teary-eyed. I would love to see tbis in the big screen but not in B3… Just something further along the line… And i will admit that nolan could make it look real good as long as they remove bale and daniel day lewis is the riddler. Its always nice to dream things isn’t it…lol.
I would not like to see jaime pressly as harley and this is mainly because of the voice… But if she can do it… Which i doubt then hell yeah i’m game for it. Also maybe an unknown or someone that has done lighter roles that you’d never expect to go dark would be cool maybe…? Hopefully not reese witherspoon though… “TO ME” she is sooooooo annoying to watch. Something about her… Don’t know… Just ughh…
LOL Reese Witherspoon would be about the worst person to cast as Harley Quinn, seriously… That’s all we need is a ditzy shopperholic Harley Quinn…