We here at Screen Rant recently asked the question, “What Will Batman 3 Be About?” The third installment of Christopher Nolan’s Batman franchise is easily one of the most anticipated sequels ever – as evidenced by the HUGE outpouring of reader reaction our article is STILL receiving.
Out of the 350+ comments left by you Batman fans, two clear points of debate raged longest and hardest throughout the thread of discussion. After seeing the sparks of that debate, we thought it only fitting that we should fan it into a brush fire. So, without further ado I now ask:
Should Two-Face and The Joker be brought back for Batman 3?
THE NEW IMPORTANCE OF THE VILLAIN
One of the things I really appreciated about Batman Begins and The Dark Knight was that it was clear with both films that scribes Chris and John Nolan and David S. Goyer all truly understood the character of Batman and the universe that he inhabited. More than that, the writers also had a keen eye for what made all of Batman’s supporting characters and (most importantly) the villains in his rogues gallery tick. If I have one criticism of Burton’s Batman films, it’s that the villains were mainly evil foils for Batman, there more for (wonderful) theatrics rather than any sort of pointed reason.
In Nolan’s films, the villains (for the most part) have carried much more dramatic weight. Certainly that’s true for The Dark Knight: The Joker wasn’t just there for show of a trademark smile (cough, cough), he added actual thematic meaning to the story, as did Harvey/Two-Face. And for that matter, so did Ra’s al Ghul in Batman Begins (Bruce Wayne twisted by anger).
There has been some debate about whether Batman 3 should position itself as a direct sequel to The Dark Knight, or perhaps as more of a standalone story, set long after TDK. In either case, if Nolan is at the helm you know that whatever villain(s) go into the script will only be in there if they add weight and meaning to the story. And while it would be a novel kick to see a few new villains rolled out for a flashy sequel, if Batman 3 is to be set directly after Dark Knight then there is still a lot of narrative weight still hanging on both The Joker and Harvey/Two-Face.
So do you bring them back?
.
TWO-FACE
Ok, so fans have said it; Nolan has said it; and even Dark Knight star Aaron Eckhart (eventually) said it:
Harvey Dent dies at the end of The Dark Knight. End of story.
However, as many of our readers have pointed out, that “death” marks the end of Harvey Dent’s story. Two-Face has a story all his (their?) own to tell.
I’m going to be honest: I’ve already argued that Batman 3 should bring back Two-Face, so I’m not going to pretend here that I’m not already in favor of that option. TDK did a great job exploring Harvey Dent, what he meant to Gotham and what it meant when he “fell from grace.” Nonetheless, I feel like there is still so much to explore in the character of TWO-FACE, and who that character becomes after the last remnants of Harvey Dent are (seemingly) gone.
Seeing Harvey fully transformed into Two-Face would add the kind of weight and hopelessness which (I think we all believe) is going to be a necessary starting point for Batman’s character in the next film. Picture it: The Caped Crusader is low. He’s hunted. He’s alone. He’s sacrificed much. Lost so much. He’s trying hard to maintain but there is Two-Face, always staring back as a testament to his failure, as morally complicated and conflicted as Batman himself.
Suddenly this character doesn’t sound as creatively exhausted as people are claiming, does he?
Another point of convergence in a lot of our reader comments was that any Dark Knight sequel should involve a flat-out war for control of Gotham City. Of those who held such an opinion, a large percentage also thought that B3 should be titled Gotham City for that very reason. If that is the direction the film goes in, then absolutely Two-Face would be an important cornerstone of the story. After all, as a D.A. Harvey Dent knew the entire inner workings of Gotham city’s businesses, political network, banking network, legal system, prison system, etc… If there was some kind of epic showdown for Gotham, then Two-Face would be one of the most crucial pieces on the chessboard.
Black Mask in Batman 3? (Click image for source)
Of course a lot of people have said that B3 should feature the criminal mastermind Black Mask (above), a classic Bat-villain who has recently enjoyed something of a resurgence in the comic books. But I have to ask: why drag us all through yet another villain origin story, just to maneuver said villain into a position (a crime boss connected all over Gotham) that you could fill with a villain the audience already knows and (for the most part) loves? Putting Two-Face into play frees the story up to introduce whatever secondary villains it wants, without having to exhaust a lot of time getting into their origins.
For example: Two-Face could approach Black Mask, The Penguin or whoever, deliver a few expository lines of dialogue to fill us in on who the villain is, and how he/she fits into the scheme of Gotham (based on his knowledge as a D.A.), and bada-bing, bada-boom, we’ve got a new player in the game, no time wasted.
So where’s the down-side of bringing Two-Face back? “Because it’s boring?” “Because it’s beating a dead horse?”
IMHO, if you truly understand why the character has been so pivotal and important to the Batman universe (I’d rank him #3 behind The Joker and Catwoman), then you should also understand just how much cinematic juice is left in this character. How do you NOT go after that juice when you know you’ve got an actor (Eckhart) who can truly apply the squeeze? Do people really think performances like his just just come with every Summer Movie Blockbuster?
UPDATE: Here’s what Two-Face himself (Aaron Eckhart) has to say on the subject:
MY VOTE: Bring back Two-Face!
Continue reading for pro/con arguments on whether the Joker should return…
‘Anchorman 2′ Trailers Tease the Return of Ron Burgundy’s News Team [Updated] 
Hugh Jackman Reveals Summer Start Date for ‘Wolverine 2′ 
Chris Hemsworth Talks ‘Thor 2′; Mads Mikkelsen Circling Villain Role [Updated] 
‘Walking Dead’ Season 3 Preview Reveals The Prison & Michonne [Updated] 
Loading ...
I don’t think they should; at least not the Joker, until later movies. I believe the next one should be centered on a hunt for Batty, with someone like Azrael who fights crime but brutally. The finale should be Bats going against him and redeeming himself in the eyes of Gotham City. The fight could lead into Arkham being damaged and many (including Joker) escaping, which would lead to other sequels.
I think The Joker should, but not Two-Face. Nolan pretty much screwed himself on Two-Face. If he would have left his fate ambiguous and not have CONFIRMED his death then I could see him return, but now it would be a cheap cop-out. The issue regarding Two-Face isn’t “Is he alive?” its “You WANT him to be alive.
I think the title for this installment should be “The Gotham Knight”. Just like you said, in this third one he has to do everything in his power to fix all the crimes that were created from the second film and protect everyone in Gotham City. I think it fits perfectly for the third film. And with the villain, it would be nice to have the Joker return but I just don’t think that they could replace Heath Ledger with some other actor. My favorite villain of all time has been the Riddler. If they can create a great story arc with him involved and get a decent actor to play him(not Jim Carry) lol, then I would be very satisfied for the next film.
Jeff,
ANY actor can be replace including Ledger. A lot of people said that Nicholson couldn’t be replaced, and then we got a better version of The Joker from Ledger.
I personally would like to also see them bring back two – face. I thought they did a fantastic job with the Harvey Dent storyline though didnt fully explore the dynamics of him as a villain. Plus the set up is already done, so we wouldnt have to bother with an origin story which if anything bothered me initially about the original batman films. They almost became like bond films with a specific regiment or formula where every new movie had a new villain with a new origin story, a new batsuit and car etc. the worst thing i thought about burtons films was the total lack in continuity between the films. The thing i love about nolan’s is that they combine to make one amazing story. I also appreciating not having to bother with Bruce moaning about his father, or anything really concerning the first movie, he MOVED on and we just straight up had a good old fashioned batman story. No b.s. Now as far as the joker is concerned, and i feel particularly strong about this, as far as i can tell nolan initially factored in the joker to the third movie and it would most definetely be a compromise not to have him in there. Also, the way i see it, the joker is batman’s nemesis and as long as he exists should be involved in any foil to destroy gotham/batman, whether minor or major. Now, my suggestion as far as bringing back the joker, well inevitably any actor playing the role is going to be compared to heath ledger’s performance. I have heard many suggestions as far people that could closely resemble heath’s VERSION of the joker. So here is my suggestion: why not totally remake the joker? Why do we need somebody who looks and acts like ledger’s joker? Why not have a BRAND NEW INTERPRETATION OF THE JOKER? He can still have the scars and everything, but have someone who is going to do their own thing with the character? The way some comic book artists have different artists do their stories. As far as new villains go, i would definetely see Catwoman playing a big role (not only is she iconic, but bruce does need a new love interest, no?) My vote for a new villain would be BLACK MASK, i think he’s a fascinating villain, plus he’s never been portrayed on the big screen and nolan did say that he wanted to do new villains. Btw, to whomever wrote the article i am posting on, i really enjoyed it and look forward to future ones.
“I believe that you and I are destined to this forever.”
Matt,
Yeah, I guess your right. Who do you think could replace him and do a much better job then him?
I like the idea of the Bane/knightfall story. I think it would fit into the Gotham in chaos/Bats on the run situation. Bane always wanted to rule the city and this would be a perfect time for him to step in and fill the void. A drawn out origin isn’t really needed for his character, but they could always just set him up for the fourth movie.
They can bring back Joker, but I would rather see the RIddler and it could even play up Confusing batman and Gotham initially. I say no to two face because Im tired of people dying and being resurrected like theya re trying to do angelina jolie in the next wanted movie which will be meh anyway.
Jeff,
I’m not good at stuff like that, but if I had to choose someone it would be Joseph Gordon-Levitt, and have David Tennant as The Riddler if they chose to bring in that character.
Matt,
That’s pretty good. I just say a side-to-side photo of Joseph comparing with Heath, and he does look like him. I also liked your pick as David Tennant becoming the Riddler.
Another one?
lets face it i Belive the joker is dead and is not going to be broaught back to BATMAN films for a very long time. Ledger just did to good of a job creating a iconic joker no one will be able to fill his shoes and i think they know that. no one wants to be the actor trying to fill those shoes it would just be destined for failure. As for Eckhart i agree those kind of acting chops dont come up much in comicbook movies but he played it well and the story works with his death. in my opinion the penguin is the only viable villan left for a sequel he is dark deep and just right for a NOLAN finale to the genre.
I dunno….I don’t envy the writers trying to sort out this mess following such a great film. (TDK)
If I absolutely couldn’t get away from recasting the Joker, I suppose I would give Crispin Glover a hard look. He’s naturally creepy and mentally unstable (Almost kicked Letterman in the freakin’ face!!!), And, if focussed, would scarcely have to “act” to pull off a really distrubing character.
Jeff,
ANY actor can be replace including Ledger. A lot of people said that Nicholson couldn’t be replaced, and then we got a better version of The Joker from Ledger.
just to mention alomst 2 decades later though i think the earliest we will see the joker back on the silver screen will be 2020 or so when it gets totaly revamped again.
First of all I understand why successful franchises try to stay connected but I submit that it is not necessary to do that all the time. In the comics many writers and artists have created stories about our beloved characters and the continuity is not always there and if the story is good we get immersed and enjoy anyway. In fact was I the only one who noticed that in TDK one of the pivotal characters from BB was totally missing. The Train system that the Wayne’s built that led to Wayne Towers, and was the seeming demise of Ras Al Goul. Yeah I noticed but it didn’t ruin TDK for me. Up to now there have been a bunch of Batman films some good some not so good, there have been different actors playing Batman and when it’s a good story and film we love it. So I say let the writers write and the directors direct and just keep making good films.
Now as for origin stories, and again I go back to the comics. There have been many villans and heros for that matter who have been introduced into stories where their origins have not been expalined right away or at all. You could introduce the Riddler, Catwoman, the Penguin, The Black Mask, or any Mob boss with out explaining how he or she came to be. You could do Harley Quin where the whole story becomes her origin story and we all don’t know it until the end of the film. Jeez the joker came up with a few origin stories during TDK so we still don’t know his true origin as portrayed by Heath Ledger in TDK and that didn’t ruin the film.
So I say bring on the villains and the hero’s we can explore their origin when we have a good story to do so but it is not required.
Lastly I say don’t bring back 2 face and the Joker for a while at least. Come up with a new story and new villains. In fact I’d love to see a Batman story where he plays more the detective than he has in previous movies. I know fans want action but there’s something to be said for good suspense, for creative plot twists, for the psych issues of living with multiple identities.
Bottom line to Mr. Nolan and company, I trust you to make another awesome film for Batman 3 if you choose to. And when it’s ready I’ll be there to see it.
Well i share some of the opinions here that Joker should not be in batman 3, later on sure and i think that best actor for Joker would be Jhonny Depp couse he is the only one who could pull it off after Heath Ledger. About Two Face i think that he should make an aparance but small one at the end of the movie just like that calling card of joker at the end of Batman Begins… Black Mask cold be really good villan for batman 43, riddler not, and maybe we could have catwoman, dark cat woman… i would not put Harlly Quinn just yeat, but her as a doctor in one of the scens yes.. maybe when they asaign her as psihologist to make psih evalution of Joker…
If the Harvey Dent side to Two-Face were dead, the remaining character would be boring. What would be left but “One-Face”?
And, unless they already have a great story where Joker was returning, I’d recommend that they move on from Joker, to avoid the direct comparisons and the mood it might bring to the film set.
I like the idea of a Scarecrow story, since Cillian Murphy has been in the two recent films.
i would love a scene where gordon walks into his office, and all the sudden a lamp flicks on and you can only see one side of harvey dent’s face
I had written about this earlier when the topic was of which villain to use for the next batman film. I still believe that the penguin is a strong option based on the comic series. There were times in the comics that Batman received info for protection from the penguin. I would get rid of the entire bird story and focus on his Napoleonic complex. He wants to be a big player in the underground of Gotham but because he is a British outsider and there is a war for control he is turned away by the families. He uses Batman as away to clear the field for him but when Batman starts to suspect something the penguin calls in for the big gun “riddler”. The Riddler in this case is a zodiac killer/hitman who leaves his calling card in the form of a riddle. The Riddler murders several people and the riddles lead to the attempted murder of Batman. The Penguin has been falsely rumored to be played by Philip Seymor Hoffman but I think a actor with a closer resemblance to the penguin is Paul Giamatti. I also think, although the likelyhood of him playing a supporting role is slim, a good riddler candidate could be Daniel Day Lewis. However, If the main villain is the Riddler the possibility of him playing the role would be greater.
just read the jeph loeb/tim sale graphic novel “the long halloween” i personally liked the way they portrayed the riddler as a drunk. that character has depth. he would definitely be a nice second villain in that context. would rather not see the over the top corny penguin character or, god forbid, mister freeze. maybe a harley quinn, catwoman angle where we are not quite sure if catwoman is friend or foe because batman is still supposedly the “bad guy” in gotham. harley quinn is a joker “copycat” killer. use the riddler in a sort of hannibal lecter helps jodie foster way to help batman solve the harley quinn murders. this keeps it dark and mature. i like the idea of a nod to joker in his cell, but that is all. the two-face dark knight storyline was so good, that bringing him back would somewhat diminish that.
Having just read the above comments, I agree most with fracaso089 and troy. Mainly because both ideas come across as plausible and allow the audience a completely new villain, while allowing a cloud to hang over Dent’s fate.
Johnny Depp as a riddler would be a fabulous outing for all cinema goers mainly because we can trust Depp to provide the solid bone crunching acting a character like the riddler requires. Cudos to Jim Carry in the past, but with Nolan’s ideal of allowing the villain an origin and thematic importance Depp could carry the question mark
Dent could re-enter at the end of the movie in Gordon’s office. and a cliff hanger could leave us all waiting for more surprises.
Furthermore, i agree with the idea of an all out battle for Gotham however that should reignite post riddler and when dent re-enters as it could explain his disappearance. he spent his time establishing more connections for an all out war.
While the riddler is ready to achieve domination but first he wants to hunt the dark knight to solve the riddle.
the third one should be a hunt for the dark knight and his fight to save gotham from the RIDDLER (DEPP)
No Penguin please. De Vitto’s penguin still haunts my dreams lol (silly villain).
And call me crazy but I really don’t like DEPP as the riddler. What NOLAN has done absolutely perfectly is his casting of non A-list stars into the roles of villains. Liam, Heath and Aaron are not that famous, at least at the time, and were cast so well. He also obviously brought out some amazing performances out of them.
DEPP is too much in the spotlight. Not saying he’s not talented but we’ve seen what he can do (amazing work) and I would love to have Nolan squeeze out a great performance out of an old actor or a new B/C list actor. Something new.
it was Nolan’s plan to do three movies, and the story arc involved The Joker in the second and third, and so to not have him in the third one would be stupid (they’d just be making one to please people). So the obvious answer would be to bring in the joker, BUT that is definitely not an option, as much as people want to talk about how the character is bigger than the actor, you can’t even really say that, I mean Kofi even you said “There’s no other villain as big as The Joker RIGHT NOW.” and the reason for that is because of one thing, HEATH LEDGER, HE IS THE JOKER. And to bring in some noob is just stupid, and to make a third movie without the joker would be kind of lame, so the only logical answer is NO THIRD MOVIE!
Having someone else play Heath Ledger might be hard for his family, so probably not the best thing to do. I say create a whole new bad guy, why only stick to the comic strips? If Christian Bale came up with a cool ninja character or a werewolf as a bad guy, I would totally go see that. Basically, I’d see any Batman movie that he puts out.
@ Valerie Atherton
Sorry but thats a silly reason not to have the Joker. You can’t replace Heath Ledger the Person, by bringing in another actor (which will eventually happen) to play the Joker.
What Nolan has done so far with his Batman films is set the stage for the next film. BB ended in chaos and lunacy; visible fear and visible source of hope; it ended in daylight. TDK began with those elements of chaos from lack of control, lunacy, visible fear (the Joker) and visible hope (the Batman); a bank robbery in broad daylight. TDK ends in darkness; control is seemingly put back in the hand of the Gothamites. But this control is blind and misunderstood, and directed by hidden fear of what is not apparent and as such Batman will now be hunted. Does TDK’s Joker, who is a right in your face type of villain, have a place in such a setting?
At the end of BB, Ras Al Ghul was sent to his death. But you never saw him killed. It was ambiguous and made it seem as though he would turn up sometime, though not anytime soon and not in the sequel. It gave the impression that he would return in shadow when people felt more at ease and more in control.
At the end of TDK, the Joker is apprehended to be put in jail and Two-Face falls to his death to lay dead, motionless, and not breathing. Their conclusions seem definite. And to the general public who will require some sense of realism, how can you bring either character back in the next chapter. The Joker may escape, but at a later time.
The stage has now been set on four levels.
(1) for a villain to come and usurp the control that has been newly awarded to Gothams citizins. Enter: Black Mask.
(2) for Bruce to rely more on the person of Bruce Wayne and less on the persona of Batman except at crucial instances. This would lead to more detective work and possible emergence of a new identity. Enter: Matches Malone
(3) for Bruce Wayne to also be targeted, as Batman is also hunted. Enter or reenter: Ras al Ghul
(4) for Joker to be avenged and/or the possible escape of Joker to be initiated. Enter: Harley Quinn
@Woolycaveman
Sorry, can’t agree. The logical thing (from both the producers and the fans point of view) is to make a 3rd film. If that requires a new script with a new villain then so be it.
I think if they do the joker, it should just be a cameo. Have him in a cell, say some words to Gordon, do the laugh, and then nothing. Because no one is going to do it like Heath Ledger and that would just be a let down.
Two-Face on the other hand should definitely come back. He’s too big of a character to just pull a venom and die. There’s still alot they could do with him.
I’m not convinced Harley Quinn can carry the villain role. She always struck me as a sidekick rather than a villain tbh. I worry she’d some across as a ‘poor man’s Joker’ rather than a character in her own right.